The Rapture Event

[RandyPNW]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

 

[keras]

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven.

This is your fundamental error.
Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17, do not say 'heaven', but as Jesus has departed from heaven, it must mean;- to where Jesus is, or is going to be. That is: Jerusalem; on earth. Where He will reign from for the next thousand years. Isaiah 2:1-5, Zechariah 14:16-21

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christians, is a false theory and those who renounce it will feel unburdened and relieved, as they learn to trust the Lord to protect them through all that must happen.

Re; the 'glorification of our bodies', this is never said to happen when Jesus Returns.
Only after the Millennium, when God sits in Judgment of everyone who has ever lived and the book of Life is opened, will anyone receive immortality. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

Why did Paul say that we will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:16) if we are then taken to heaven, as you are claiming? Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven instead of "in the air" in that case? This is a question I typically ask pre-tribs and they can never give a reasonable answer if they even attempt to answer it at all. I'm surprised that you would agree with them that we'll be taken to heaven when the rapture (gathering) occurs. I see no reason that we would be taken there. If that was going to happen then it seems we'd be taken directly to heaven instead of inexplicably meeting Him "in the air" first. Unless you think "the air" refers to heaven?

 

[RandyPNW]

This is your fundamental error.
Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17, do not say 'heaven', but as Jesus has departed from heaven, it must mean;- to where Jesus is, or is going to be. That is: Jerusalem; on earth. Where He will reign from for the next thousand years. Isaiah 2:1-5, Zechariah 14:16-21

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christians, is a false theory and those who renounce it will feel unburdened and relieved, as they learn to trust the Lord to protect them through all that must happen.

Re; the 'glorification of our bodies', this is never said to happen when Jesus Returns.
Only after the Millennium, when God sits in Judgment of everyone who has ever lived and the book of Life is opened, will anyone receive immortality. Rev 20:11-15

I can understand where you'e coming from, even though we disagree on it. No problem....

 

[RandyPNW]

Why did Paul say that we will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:16) if we are then taken to heaven, as you are claiming? Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven instead of "in the air" in that case? This is a question I typically ask pre-tribs and they can never give a reasonable answer if they even attempt to answer it at all. I'm surprised that you would agree with them that we'll be taken to heaven when the rapture (gathering) occurs. I see no reason that we would be taken there. If that was going to happen then it seems we'd be taken directly to heaven instead of inexplicably meeting Him "in the air" first. Unless you think "the air" refers to heaven?

Yes, I see what you mean. However, just to explain, I just automatically assume there is an identification between "the air" and "heaven."

I do not agree with Pretribbers. There is little difference in my mind between heaven and "the air," or even with the idea that the focus is on our inheriting the earth, as opposed to "living in heaven" for any length of time. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, I see what you mean. However, just to explain, I just automatically assume there is an identification between "the air" and "heaven."

I think Paul would just said "heaven" instead of "the air" if he was referring to heaven. The third heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of the dead in Christ dwell, anyway. I've always assumed "the air" referred to the earth's atmosphere. So, I believe we will meet Him up in the earth's atmosphere somewhere when He comes.

I do not agree with Pretribbers.

Not in terms of agreeing with their pretrib rapture view (I know you are post-trib), but you agree with them that we'll be taken to heaven when Jesus comes. That's all I was saying.

There is little difference in my mind between heaven and "the air," or even with the idea that the focus is on our inheriting the earth, as opposed to "living in heaven" for any length of time. Thanks for your comments.

I suppose it doesn't really matter much whether it's referring to the earth's atmosphere or to heaven (the third heaven) as long as we understand we're not going to be there for seven years at that point as pre-tribs believe.

 

[RandyPNW]

I think Paul would just said "heaven" instead of "the air" if he was referring to heaven. The third heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of the dead in Christ dwell, anyway. I've always assumed "the air" referred to the earth's atmosphere. So, I believe we will meet Him up in the earth's atmosphere somewhere when He comes.


Not in terms of agreeing with their pretrib rapture view (I know you are post-trib), but you agree with them that we'll be taken to heaven when Jesus comes. That's all I was saying.


I suppose it doesn't really matter much whether it's referring to the earth's atmosphere or to heaven (the third heaven) as long as we understand we're not going to be there for seven years at that point as pre-tribs believe.

I agree, but you may be right about "air" referring to the earth's atmosphere, where "clouds" are. If so, I'm on board.

For all I know, the term "heaven" may include the totality of all 3 heavens, if indeed they can be categorized as such, biblically? That's really all I was saying, is that we have to go to where Christ is in order to return with him.

But it makes sense that we only meet him half way up to the throne of God, because he is descending with the clouds, and that's where we meet him? Anyway, I speculate...

 

[Douggg]

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Randy, if you are thinking Matthew 24:31 is referring to the rapture - it is not.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is referring to the gathering of the Jews scattered in nations to the nation of Israel, the land of their forefathers.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 describes that gathering (verse 3). From one end of heaven to the other (verse 4) is an expression used to mean from the fatherest corners of the earth. In verse 4, God will fetch the Jews with the angels.

Deuteronomy 30:
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The timing of the rapture/resurrection event will before Stage 4 on this chart. i.e. before the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the transgression of desolation act. The rapture/resurrection can happen any time before then.

The ToD act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out. Christians are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation. 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection event.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, if you are thinking Matthew 24:31 is referring to the rapture - it is not.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is referring to the gathering of the Jews scattered in nations to the nation of Israel, the land of their forefathers.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 describes that gathering (verse 3). From one end of heaven to the other (verse 4) is an expression used to mean from the fatherest corners of the earth. In verse 4, God will fetch the Jews with the angels.

Deuteronomy 30:
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The timing of the rapture/resurrection event will before Stage 4 on this chart. i.e. before the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the transgression of desolation act. The rapture/resurrection can happen any time before then.

The ToD act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out. Christians are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation. 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection event.


View attachment 358242

Yes, I know there are variations on this from the Pretrib perspective. I just read, and critiqued for myself, Blaising who wrote a book giving his views. In all honesty, it is confusing. How can this *not* be the Rapture event, unless one assumes that the Apostle Paul received this revelation all by himself?

I don't think that he did, though he certainly had a unique perspective on this, being that he was called to the Gentiles, whereas prior to that Israel had been the preeminent focus of the Law. All apostles, however, were given the Great Commission. And these apostles would hardly have accepted anything completely unique to Paul, in my opinion.

So I do think the coming of the Son of Man to deliver the saints in Dan 7 and in the Olivet Discourse refers to the Rapture event. But I do agree with you that when this Discourse was given, Israel figured prominently and even exclusively. It only applied, by extension, to the international Church, as I see it. But thanks for clarifying your Pretrib view on this.

 

[eleos1954]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

You have to deal with the 1,000 years .... that is between the 1st and second resurrection. It's not immediate.

 

[Clare73]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Christ does not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Th 2:1-3).

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.
Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

"Rapture" is the English translation of the Latin "rapturo" which is the translation of the Greek harpazo ("catching up") in the clouds of 1 Th 4:16-17.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.
So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.
And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

 

[RandyPNW]

You have to deal with the 1,000 years .... that is between the 1st and second resurrection. It's not immediate.

I'm a Premillennialist. It is not inconsistent with my eschatology.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christ does not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Th 2:1-3).

Yes, I know.

"Rapture" is the English translation of the Latin "rapturo" which is the translation of the Greek harpazo ("catching up") in the clouds of 1 Th 4:16-17.

Yes, I know.

 

[eleos1954]

I'm a Premillennialist. It is not inconsistent with my eschatology.

Premillennialism is not consistent with scripture.

“With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
“Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

 

[_Dave_]

Timing is everything.

What helps me in understanding Scriptures about Christ's return like Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, for example, is knowing whether verses apply to Christ's return Part 1, for the catching up of the church, or Part 2, Christ's triumphant return at the end of Great Tribulation to usher in His Millennial Kingdom. In the OP, what is mentioned is the second part of Christ's return, 7 years after his taking the saved out, not the rapture.

Fully understanding Paul's letters to the Thessalonians is vital for clearing up any confusion. The church members were worried because they had apparently received some false teaching from someone that led them to believe the rapture had already taken place. They were suffering real persecution at the time, so they naturally thought they had missed the rapture and had been thrust into the Great Tribulation. Paul told them the rapture won't happen until after the church has fallen away and the man of sin is revealed. Neither of those things had happened, so the rapture was still future.

Confusion about the Thessalonians letters comes in when the reader isn't correctly determining which "return" is being referenced.

 

[RandyPNW]

Premillennialism is not consistent with scripture.

“With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
“Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

You leave me to draw my own conclusions as to why you think this renders Premil incompatible with Scripture? The wicked under the reins of Antichrist will face the presence of the Lord on the day he comes in judgment against them. But that doesn't mean the whole earth will be destroyed.

In the book of Revelation we read that 2/3 of the earth is sometimes spared judgment. What makes you think it will be any different when Christ comes back? If so, then mortals will enter into the next millennium, just as humanity entered into the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, etc. millenniums.

Rev 9.18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

 

[eleos1954]

You leave me to draw my own conclusions as to why you think this renders Premil incompatible with Scripture? The wicked under the reins of Antichrist will face the presence of the Lord on the day he comes in judgment against them. But that doesn't mean the whole earth will be destroyed.

In the book of Revelation we read that 2/3 of the earth is sometimes spared judgment. What makes you think it will be any different when Christ comes back? If so, then mortals will enter into the next millennium, just as humanity entered into the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, etc. millenniums.

Rev 9.18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

Jesus is going to descend from the skies as visibly, as tangibly, as He ascended (see Acts 1:11). Revelation says, “Every eye will see him” (1:7). Paul tells us “the Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7). And Peter says, “The heavens will disappear with a roar” and the earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

 

[keras]

Jesus is going to descend from the skies as visibly, as tangibly, as He ascended (see Acts 1:11). Revelation says, “Every eye will see him” (1:7). Paul tells us “the Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7). And Peter says, “The heavens will disappear with a roar” and the earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

You have mixed up three separate events.
1/ 2 Thess 1:6-10, is about the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will set the scene for all the end times, as Prophesied. Note; Jesus is only revealed to His own peoples.

2/ Acts 1:11 is the glorious Return, after Armageddon, Rev 16:16-18 Jesus will then reign as King of Kings for the next thousand years.

3/ Then comes the GWT Judgment; Rev 20:11-15 and the old earth will be gone and the new heavens and earth come for Eternity. Rev 21-1-7

 

[Jan001]

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

Hi RandyPNW.

This is my understanding:

Jesus said, "Do not hold me," because his Father will crown him the King of heaven and earth. The glorified Christ's interaction with mortal humans will not be the same type of relationship as it was before his death and resurrection. Revelation 1:17-18, Mark 9:4-6

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

At the end of time, I think the people on earth will receive their glorified bodies as they begin to ascend to meet Jesus and his saints who accompany him. The saints who accompany Jesus will rise first and receive their glorified bodies shortly before the people on earth receive theirs.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There will not be any mortal men on earth after they ascend to meet Jesus and his saints in the air. It will time for the last judgment, aka the sheep and goats judgment, and aka the great white throne judgment.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

I think God's people will inherit the earth after the last judgment, but Jesus prepared a place for them to dwell in his Father's house.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe [a] in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

 

[Jan001]

You have to deal with the 1,000 years .... that is between the 1st and second resurrection. It's not immediate.

I think that Satan was released in the 20th Century: World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Other Wars, Abortion Legalized, Homosexuality Legalized, Euthanasia Legalized, Unnatural "Marriage" Legalized, Atomic Bombs Used & Nuclear Bombs Invented, Changing Your Sex Legalized, Weaponizing Vaccines, etc.