The question continuationists must answer

[YeshuaFan]

Your starting point is wrong as although the apostles fixed some divisions, they clearly didn't fix all divisions.
That's why there were regular rebukes on that topic.

The church is to heed and obey the teaching of the real Apostles, the ones whose books are included in the NT canon...

 

[YeshuaFan]

In the end times people will heap teachers to themselves to teach what their itching ears want to hear.

They will even cease to teach the true Gospel, bringing shame and destruction upon themselves!

 

[Saint Steven]

Since the time of ascension of Christ!
That prophecy of Joel refers to a time yet to happen!

What?
The prophecy of Joel says "In the last days",
and you said, "Since the time of ascension of Christ!".
How can it then be in a time yet to come?

Acts 2:17-18
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

 

[Francis Drake]

Got a scripture to prove your assertion? No you dont. They fixed all division when it occurred.

Silly nonsense. If division was fixed, scripture wouldn't show Paul etc continually rebuking it.
There are loads of scriptures showing that division was an ongoing problem, but the following shows that the problem will continue to be a problem even after Paul departed..
Acts20v29I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

They sure didnt promote it

Even sillier comment. I never said they promoted division.

 

[Paul G West Sr]

The continuationists seem to be avoiding this questioning.

W2L,

I'm new to the forum, and quite new to the words Cessationist and Continuationist. If I now understand them accurately, I agree with Saint Steven, when he said the discussion you and others have been having "... has nothing to do with Continuationism. (opposite of Cessationism)". Isn't Continuationism the belief that Spiritual Gifts are still in operation? And by the way, according to Sam Storms, seemingly a well-known Continuationist and author of "The Beginners Guide to Spiritual Gifts", which I just bought, states that there are many "Spiritual Gifts", besides the more miraculous ones (healing, tongues, etc.). I have always been a Cesssationist - 73+ yrs.), but have had a few things happen in my life recently to make me take another look at the issue. I have not been aware of the huge accusations you are now throwing their way, that somehow they are responsible for division in our churches?

Please give me some examples that you see as Continuationists causing division. Is it only that Continuationists and Cessationists disagree about Spiritual Gifting ending or not ending?

 

[Francis Drake]

Since the time of ascension of Christ!
That prophecy of Joel refers to a time yet to happen!

It must refer to the time period that started at Pentecost, otherwise Peter is talking nonsense.

 

[Saint Steven]

The ones outside of the Bible are!

What?
Joel says in the last days. (there will be prophecy)
First you indicated that was any time after the Ascension.
Then you said that time has not yet come.
Now you say no prophecy outside the Bible?
Not sure what all that means. Are you?

 

[Francis Drake]

The church is to heed and obey the teaching of the real Apostles, the ones whose books are included in the NT canon...

What has that to do with my post?

 

[Hillsage]

What?
Joel says in the last days. (there will be prophecy)
First you indicated that was any time after the Ascension.
Then you said that time has not yet come.
Now you say no prophecy outside the Bible?
Not sure what all that means. Are you?

Sorry Steven, I was posting to Paul and it popped up on you....so I've edited it out.

 

[Hillsage]

And by the way, according to Sam Storms, seemingly a well-known Continuationist and author of "The Beginners Guide to Spiritual Gifts", which I just bought, states that there are many "Spiritual Gifts", besides the more miraculous ones (healing, tongues, etc.).

And Sam Storms would certainly know all about the false teachings that cessasionists believe and use to divide the church. He was a professor at Dallas Theological seminary many years back preaching against the spiritual gifts, like those in 1Cor 14:23 which calls those who were like him; "ungifted NAS, "unlearned" KJV "who do not understand" NIV. I have two of Sam Storm's booklets; "A biblical foundation for the baptism and the filling of the Holy Spirit" AND "A biblical foundation for speaking in tongues". I may not agree totally with him on his theology, but at least I know we agree on one thing. We're more concerned that you 'get it' than 'whether or not' you ever get your 'doctrine' right 'about it'.

 

[W2L]

Silly nonsense. If division was fixed, scripture wouldn't show Paul etc continually rebuking it.
There are loads of scriptures showing that division was an ongoing problem, but the following shows that the problem will continue to be a problem even after Paul departed..
Acts20v29I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

Even sillier comment. I never said they promoted division.

Not silly. You yourself said paul rebuked the division in his epistle, so thats an example of Paul fixing division.

 

[W2L]

W2L,

I'm new to the forum, and quite new to the words Cessationist and Continuationist. If I now understand them accurately, I agree with Saint Steven, when he said the discussion you and others have been having "... has nothing to do with Continuationism. (opposite of Cessationism)". Isn't Continuationism the belief that Spiritual Gifts are still in operation? And by the way, according to Sam Storms, seemingly a well-known Continuationist and author of "The Beginners Guide to Spiritual Gifts", which I just bought, states that there are many "Spiritual Gifts", besides the more miraculous ones (healing, tongues, etc.). I have always been a Cesssationist - 73+ yrs.), but have had a few things happen in my life recently to make me take another look at the issue. I have not been aware of the huge accusations you are now throwing their way, that somehow they are responsible for division in our churches?

Please give me some examples that you see as Continuationists causing division. Is it only that Continuationists and Cessationists disagree about Spiritual Gifting ending or not ending?

Modern day "prophets" and "apostles" dont fix church division like the real apostles did 2000 years ago.

 

[Paul G West Sr]

Modern day "prophets" and "apostles" dont fix church division like the real apostles did 2000 years ago.

W2L,

Did you read my post about the main course vs. the trimmings? I don't think we need to argue about the trimmings. It seems to me, that's where the division comes in. Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the main course. Spiritual gifting is among the trimmings. I suspect they desirable, and Paul command that we seek them. Well, one could say that Paul was only talking to his converts, but if we assume that, we might as well say nothing he wrote was for us, but only for his converts.

Do you think those who believe they are practicing Spiritual Gifts are somehow obscuring, limiting, or denying Christ and Him crucified?

 

[Francis Drake]

Not silly. You yourself said paul rebuked the division in his epistle, so thats an example of Paul fixing division.

Rebuking division doesn't fix anything. It just tells us it was a perpetual problem than needed addressing and still needs addressing today.

 

[W2L]

Rebuking division doesn't fix anything. It just tells us it was a perpetual problem than needed addressing and still needs addressing today.

So where are the modern day apostles who will address the many divisions we see?

 

[Saint Steven]

God doesnt give different churches different doctrine. Man does that without God.

God doesn't give anyone "doctrine".

Because doctrine is a human attempt to sort out what they Bible teaches. The fact that those attempts may vary, or even be in conflict, is inevitable.

And ironically, those who expect that all doctrine will agree are the cause, not the solution, for division.

 

[W2L]

W2L,

Did you read my post about the main course vs. the trimmings? I don't think we need to argue about the trimmings. It seems to me, that's where the division comes in. Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the main course. Spiritual gifting is among the trimmings. I suspect they desirable, and Paul command that we seek them. Well, one could say that Paul was only talking to his converts, but if we assume that, we might as well say nothing he wrote was for us, but only for his converts.

Do you think those who believe they are practicing Spiritual Gifts are somehow obscuring, limiting, or denying Christ and Him crucified?

I think anyone who believes they are an apostle is wrong. I dont see modern day apostles. What i do see is RCC, EO, and many protestant denominations who are divided and have been that way for hundreds of years with no true apostles in sight

 

[Saint Steven]

So where are the modern day apostles who will address the many divisions we see?

Where is churchwide "division fixing" in the Apostle's job description?
Seems like a diversion from the real task at hand.

 

[W2L]

God doesn't give anyone "doctrine".

Because doctrine is a human attempt to sort out what they Bible teaches. The fact that those attempts may vary, or even be in conflict, is inevitable.

And ironically, those who expect that all doctrine will agree are the cause, not the solution, for division.

Actually the bible contains doctrine too.

If our doctrines dont agree this proves they are not all from God

 

[Saint Steven]

Whenever the apostles confronted division in the church they fixed it. Where are all the modern day apostles who will fix the division in church today? Also, how can all these church teachers be called by God if their doctrine divides us? Does God teach division and confusion?

There has always been "division". It is the Lord that unites us.

1 Corinthians 3:4-6
For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.