The question cessationists must answer.

[Dave L]

I've been a Christian for over 40 years, read, study/studied and preach the Bible. I have more than a good idea of what it says.

Possibly in some areas. You have lots to loose as a preacher. It's hard to eat crow. And I think these are the hardest to reach.

 

[swordsman1]

Given that the last days have not yet passed, the scripture quoted by Peter is still perfectly valid for today.
Acts2v17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

In denying the above, the gifts so described, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit.

That passage does not prove the gift of prophesy would continue throughout all of the last days. It says "in the last days" not "throughout the last days". That part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days. Just as the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood in the next 2 verses will only be fulfilled at the end of the last days.

 

[Strong in Him]

Possibly in some areas. You have lots to loose as a preacher. It's hard to eat crow. And I think these are the hardest to reach.

Like I said, you believe what you like.
You can't answer my questions or back up your assertions with Scripture. I guess it's hard to eat humble pie.

 

[Dave L]

Like I said, you believe what you like.
You can't answer my questions or back up your assertions with Scripture. I guess it's hard to eat humble pie.

I said beside the two outpourings, only an apostle could impart the charismatic gifts. You need to prove this wrong using scripture before you can honestly believe the gifts came any other way. Faith does not exist apart from the word. This makes all contrary views sinful since whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Francis Drake]

God is not speaking anything new as in revelations to us today, nor in prophecy, for in the scriptures we have the sure and infallible word of the Lord unto us now!

Given that you constantly deny his voice, you've got self inflicted blindness and deafness. Jesus called it hardness of heart.
So its hardly surprising you never hear his voice, and never get any revelations.

In contrast, I first heard him speak to me as a boy over 50 years ago when he told me that he lived in my heart. That was a decade before I ever read a bible.
I have lived with that still small voice ever since.

Those who claim to be Prophets need to be 100 % accurate, but none of them are....

Again, you are adding stuff to NT scripture that there is no mention of.
Paul said, 1Cor13v9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
ie. we don't have the whole story.

Prophets are just as fallible as bible teachers. So whether a teaching, or a prophecy, both need to be weighed.

Here's one of thousands that no scripture would have revealed to us.
This story is about my son giving a prophecy whilst only 3 years old.-

We were in the process of buying a house when the agent suddenly told us he was selling it to someone else.
Other than knowing we had lost the house, my son had no idea what was really going on. When we got home he disappeared into his room to play, then suddenly came back and said, "Jesus says we are going to have that house and we will have it before we go to Norway!"

My wife and I were shocked, but immediately sought the Lord, who confirmed it as the rhema word for our situation.
Our visit to Norway was over 3 months away, and provided a definite cut off date as our ferry trip was already booked.

We were powerless to change the situation as it was in the hands of other people, so we were left with claiming the word by faith alone, and checking regularly with the agent.
Two days before leaving, I called on the agent with a letter of instruction should it come on the market while we were away. He was clearly fed up with my pestering and literally told me to leave his office.

The final day came and we were loading the campervan ready for our due departure at 2pm. At 12pm, the phone rang, "The sale fell through and the house came back on the market this morning.

If you are still interested, can you come in and sign the papers."​

We ran immediately to the office and signed the papers. When he asked how I knew it would fall through, I told him straight out that God had told us.

Can you describe how we could get precision dated guidance like this from just reading the bible.

 

[Dave L]

Given that you constantly deny his voice, you've got self inflicted blindness and deafness. Jesus called it hardness of heart.
So its hardly surprising you never hear his voice, and never get any revelations.

In contrast, I first heard him speak to me as a boy over 50 years ago when he told me that he lived in my heart. That was a decade before I ever read a bible.
I have lived with that still small voice ever since.

Again, you are adding stuff to NT scripture that there is no mention of.
Paul said, 1Cor13v9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
ie. we don't have the whole story.

Prophets are just as fallible as bible teachers. So whether a teaching, or a prophecy, both need to be weighed.

Here's one of thousands that no scripture would have revealed to us.
This story is about my son giving a prophecy whilst only 3 years old.-

We were in the process of buying a house when the agent suddenly told us he was selling it to someone else.
Other than knowing we had lost the house, my son had no idea what was really going on. When we got home he disappeared into his room to play, then suddenly came back and said, "Jesus says we are going to have that house and we will have it before we go to Norway!"

My wife and I were shocked, but immediately sought the Lord, who confirmed it as the rhema word for our situation.
Our visit to Norway was over 3 months away, and provided a definite cut off date as our ferry trip was already booked.

We were powerless to change the situation as it was in the hands of other people, so we were left with claiming the word by faith alone, and checking regularly with the agent.
Two days before leaving, I called on the agent with a letter of instruction should it come on the market while we were away. He was clearly fed up with my pestering and literally told me to leave his office.

The final day came and we were loading the campervan ready for our due departure at 2pm. At 12pm, the phone rang, "The sale fell through and the house came back on the market this morning.

If you are still interested, can you come in and sign the papers."​

We ran immediately to the office and signed the papers. When he asked how I knew it would fall through, I told him straight out that God had told us.

Can you describe how we could get precision dated guidance like this from just reading the bible.

Faith tells you your needs are met before you see them. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit in matters of concern.

 

[swordsman1]

Again, you are adding stuff to NT scripture that there is no mention of.
Paul said, 1Cor13v9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
ie. we don't have the whole story.

'in part' does not mean 'in error'.

Prophets are just as fallible as bible teachers. So whether a teaching, or a prophecy, both need to be weighed.

What?! That's not what scripture says about prophecy.

2 Peter 1:21: “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ​

The words of the prophet are the words of God and are to be received and responded to as such. They are infallible and authoritative - just as authoritative as scripture. In the Old Testament theocracy if someone made a false prophecy they were put to death. A fallible prophet is an oxymoron.

Here's one of thousands that no scripture would have revealed to us.
This story is about my son giving a prophecy whilst only 3 years old.-

We were in the process of buying a house when the agent suddenly told us he was selling it to someone else.
Other than knowing we had lost the house, my son had no idea what was really going on. When we got home he disappeared into his room to play, then suddenly came back and said, "Jesus says we are going to have that house and we will have it before we go to Norway!"

My wife and I were shocked, but immediately sought the Lord, who confirmed it as the rhema word for our situation.
Our visit to Norway was over 3 months away, and provided a definite cut off date as our ferry trip was already booked.

We were powerless to change the situation as it was in the hands of other people, so we were left with claiming the word by faith alone, and checking regularly with the agent.
Two days before leaving, I called on the agent with a letter of instruction should it come on the market while we were away. He was clearly fed up with my pestering and literally told me to leave his office.

The final day came and we were loading the campervan ready for our due departure at 2pm. At 12pm, the phone rang, "The sale fell through and the house came back on the market this morning.

If you are still interested, can you come in and sign the papers."​

We ran immediately to the office and signed the papers. When he asked how I knew it would fall through, I told him straight out that God had told us.

Can you describe how we could get precision dated guidance like this from just reading the bible.

So we are expected to believe the gift of prophecy exists today on the basis of a fanciful 2nd hand story about a 3 year old boy saying something that by coincidence came true?

 

[Francis Drake]

That passage does not prove the gift of prophesy would continue throughout all of the last days. It says "in the last days" not "throughout the last days". That part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days. Just as the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood in the next 2 verses will only be fulfilled at the end of the last days.

Again you are just clutching at straws, making nonsense up as you go along to match your false narrative. Everything you say here is adding to the plain meaning and proves nothing that you pretend.

Look again at the plain meaning here. There is no reference whatsoever that any of these things will end before the Lord returns.
Acts2v17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The fact that we are still here proves the last days have not yet passed, and the above says that prophecy, vision, dreams etc. will happen in the last days.
You haven't a leg to stand on.

The saddest part is that you are tossing aside an incredible blessing from your heavenly Father.
Just like Adam in the garden, you prefer your human Tree of Knowledge to the Tree of Life in the Spirit.

 

[Francis Drake]

Faith tells you your needs are met before you see them. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit in matters of concern.

That's a complete non answer to my post. At least put some effort into it if you want to refute me.

I ask again, where in a search of the bible would I find precision guidance like my testimony above.
You claim everything can be found in the bible, so show me.

And I can give hundreds just like that! How about you giving me some of your testimonies of being guided like that?

 

[Francis Drake]

So we are expected to believe the gift of prophecy exists today on the basis of a fanciful 2nd hand story about a 3 year old boy saying something that by coincidence came true?

Your arrogance and unbelief obviously knows no bounds.
That 3 year old boy is my son, and it was a 1st hand testimony with many witnesses.

 

[swordsman1]

Look again at the plain meaning here. There is no reference whatsoever that any of these things will end before the Lord returns.
Acts2v17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The fact that we are still here proves the last days have not yet passed, and the above says that prophecy, vision, dreams etc. will happen in the last days.
You haven't a leg to stand on.

If Joel's prophecy was to meant apply throughout all of the last days, then you must also say the sun has turned to darkness and the moon to blood. Last time I looked they were their normal colors.

This is the rest of passage that you omitted from your quote:

Acts 2:19-21
‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’​

You can't simply arbitrarily declare the part about visions and prophecy to continue throughout all the last days, when the other part about the sun and the moon clearly doesn't. The former was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days, the other will be fulfilled at the end.

 

[swordsman1]

That 3 year old boy is my son, and it was a 1st hand testimony with many witnesses.

So you say. But to me it is an unproven 2nd hand story. Should I really be expected to change my beliefs on the basis of a 2nd hand unproven story. There is a reason unsubstantiated stories are never accepted as evidence by the courts - it is unprovable hearsay. Prove your argument from scripture, not hearsay. Then I might be convinced.

 

[Francis Drake]

So you say. But to me it is an unproven 2nd hand story. Should I really be expected to change my beliefs on the basis of a 2nd hand unproven story. There is a reason unsubstantiated stories are never accepted as evidence by the courts - it is unprovable hearsay. Prove your argument from scripture, not hearsay. Then I might be convinced.

Foolish comment. By your standard, nothing on this forum is true, and everything about you is a total lie.
And scripture is only valid because you believe it's valid by faith. Other than that it isn't even second hand, its hundredth hand hearsay.

 

[Strong in Him]

I said beside the two outpourings, only an apostle could impart the charismatic gifts.

I know what you said; I'm concerned with what the Bible says though.

You need to prove this wrong using scripture

No I don't.
You made the statement that certain gifts have ceased and that anyone using, or claiming, them is fraudulent. YOU need to prove what Scriptural basis there is for that statement.
If you can't, then it remains only your opinion and we don't have to listen.

Faith does not exist apart from the word.

As the word does not say that certain of God's spiritual gifts would cease when the Apostles died, we don't need to believe that.
As the word says that the Spirit gives gifts for building up the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is still here today, we can have confidence that God means what he says.

This makes all contrary views sinful since whatever is not of faith is sin.

I have faith that the Spirit gives gifts today.
I have faith that when in a meeting worshipping God, people ask to receive the Spirit and then start speaking in tongues, that that is from God.
I have faith that the Bible talks of speaking in tongues and shows that people did then. We have the same God and the same Spirit that the Apostles did, so it's not surprising that he gives the same gifts.
It says in Scripture that he gives these gifts, so I have faith that he does.

 

[Dave L]

I know what you said; I'm concerned with what the Bible says though.



No I don't.
You made the statement that certain gifts have ceased and that anyone using, or claiming, them is fraudulent. YOU need to prove what Scriptural basis there is for that statement.
If you can't, then it remains only your opinion and we don't have to listen.



As the word does not say that certain of God's spiritual gifts would cease when the Apostles died, we don't need to believe that.
As the word says that the Spirit gives gifts for building up the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is still here today, we can have confidence that God means what he says.



I have faith that the Spirit gives gifts today.
I have faith that when in a meeting worshipping God, people ask to receive the Spirit and then start speaking in tongues, that that is from God.
I have faith that the Bible talks of speaking in tongues and shows that people did then. We have the same God and the same Spirit that the Apostles did, so it's not surprising that he gives the same gifts.
It says in Scripture that he gives these gifts, so I have faith that he does.

The idea is to find an example where the charismatic gifts came through a third means in the bible. Only two exist. The two outpourings and through the hands of an apostle. You are adding to the bible to say otherwise and cannot have faith apart from scripture, the source of faith.

 

[swordsman1]

Foolish comment. By your standard, nothing on this forum is true, and everything about you is a total lie.
And scripture is only valid because you believe it's valid by faith. Other than that it isn't even second hand, its hundredth hand hearsay.

I'll ignore the insults.

You're right, I certainly don't take everything I read on this forum as truth. As for scripture, the inspired inerrant Word of God is the one source that is guaranteed to be true.

 

[Dave L]

That's a complete non answer to my post. At least put some effort into it if you want to refute me.

I ask again, where in a search of the bible would I find precision guidance like my testimony above.
You claim everything can be found in the bible, so show me.

And I can give hundreds just like that! How about you giving me some of your testimonies of being guided like that?

Faith enables us to predict the outcome of a matter before we see it. You do not need prophecy. Scripture replaced it in far better ways.

 

[Francis Drake]

If Joel's prophecy was to meant apply throughout all of the last days, then you must also say the sun has turned to darkness and the moon to blood. Last time I looked they were their normal colors.

Only a complete fool would claim that. But thanks for bringing the rest of the prophecy up as it abundantly demonstrates your falsehood.
I'm sure we both agree Peter understood that the sun turning to blood would came much later, but in no way does that understanding indicate prophecy etc. would soon cease. If it were true, why doesn't scripture make that fact clear instead of leaving it open to confusion.

This is the rest of passage that you omitted from your quote:

Thanks, saved me the trouble, especially as it further proves my point.

Acts 2:19-21
‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’​

You can't simply arbitrarily declare the part about visions and prophecy to continue throughout all the last days, when the other part about the sun and the moon clearly doesn't. The former was fulfilled at the beginning of the last days, the other will be fulfilled at the end.

And you cannot arbitrarily declare when prophecy etc has ceased.
Unless declared otherwise, we have no choice but to assume the first part of Joel's prophecy continues active throughout the "last days" till the next part happens.

To claim otherwise abuses the obvious plain meaning of scripture.

 

[Strong in Him]

The idea is to find an example where the charismatic gifts came through a third means in the bible. Only two exist. The two outpourings and through the hands of an apostle. You are adding to the bible to say otherwise and cannot have faith apart from scripture, the source of faith.

Like I said, it's not worth continuing this conversation.

Shame you're missing out on gifts from God, but have a nice life.

 

[Dave L]

Like I said, it's not worth continuing this conversation.

Shame you're missing out on gifts from God, but have a nice life.

You would if you could.........