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The scriptures (God's words) do far better than the gifts ever could. Today's "charismatic gifts" are not anything like the originals.And the mostly "ungifted" church of today doesn't have the Holy Spirit that inspired the scriptures. Therein lies the perpetual chasm of our debate.
1CO 14:16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
"Amen" to the prayer tongues of "the spirit" of a man/woman.
1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole (Corinthian charismatic) church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
And the same "ungifted" "they" still say we're basically mad today with 'babble and gibberish.
You are discrediting Christ and the church.
The scriptures (God's words) do far better than the gifts ever could. Today's "charismatic gifts" are not anything like the originals.
The best gifts are revealed in scripture. And your "charismatic gifts" are not in any way like the originals. If, you would spend more time in the bible, it will become obvious.You are repeating arguments that are blown...the scriptures exhort us to covet the best gifts. Your argument therefore that the scriptures are somehow in apposition to the gifts is spurious.
You are presenting a false agenda for Christians, and depriving those on the right track.nonsense...on that basis Paul rubbished the church in all his letters....
The apostolic gift is still for today.In Acts, God distributed the gifts in the two outpourings. And then only through the hands of an apostle. Only an apostle could impart them. When the apostles died off, only the ministerial gifts remained. Tongues, prophecy. word of knowledge, signs and wonders all ceased.
According to my experience it is 'hearing God's words which "PROCEEDETH from His mouth" which enables a "gifted" Christian to walk in the 'supernatural power' giftings He manifests through me or others who are biblically qualified. There's no bible record of Jesus manifesting the miraculous gifts until after He received His Spirit baptism, and that pattern holds experientially true to this day, for me.The scriptures (God's words) do far better than the gifts ever could.
You are entitled to your unsubstantiated opinion, with which I disagree. BUT, neither are 'the scriptures' of today "anything like the originals" either. 38,000 'corrections from the KJV to the NIV alone, are proof enough IMO. So you can 'trust only' in whatever translation of the bible you may have today, I will trust ALSO in hearing the 'Spirit that inspired 'the original words' written. Words which differ from the originals multiple translations today.Today's "charismatic gifts" are not anything like the originals.
You are not God speaking. And scripture thoroughly furnishes the believer in the things of God. If you think you supplement this, you are adding to God's word.According to my experience it is 'hearing God's words which "PROCEEDETH from His mouth" which enables a "gifted" Christian to walk in the 'supernatural power' giftings He manifests through me or others who are biblically qualified. There's no bible record of Jesus manifesting the miraculous gifts until after He received His Spirit baptism, and that pattern holds experientially true to this day, for me.
MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
And the scriptures weren't written by 'every word spoken', they were written as men were 'inspired' to write. That's why Paul even admits it's his opinion, as well as admitting he doesn't even know if what he wrote is the will of God. THAT is in the BIBLE you want me to blindly follow like you. I will not, I will walk not only with the knowing of the bible that 'I have', just 'like you'. I will also walk according to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD." Does that mean I will never 'miss' in what I think I'm hearing? NO! But neither will I walk in the naivety I see as revealed in your understanding of 'the bible'.
You are entitled to your unsubstantiated opinion, with which I disagree. BUT, neither are 'the scriptures' of today "anything like the originals" either. 38,000 'corrections from the KJV to the NIV alone, are proof enough IMO. So you can 'trust only' in whatever translation of the bible you may have today, I will trust ALSO in hearing the 'Spirit that inspired 'the original words' written. Words which differ from the originals multiple translations today.
There are no apostles today. There were many in the first century who knew Jesus personally, spending time with him, being appointed by him. And these were also witnesses of his resurrection. This made one an apostle. Nobody today fulfills this criteria.The apostolic gift is still for today.
The 12 apostles had to have seen Jesus ministry from John till his resurrection to special eye witnesses bitbthevspostles AFTER the resurrection are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.
“ Ephesians 4 - 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
There were other apostles after the 12
We read of Paul, Barnabas, Timotheus, Silvanus, snd I believe Titus.
So the erroneous view that apostles and prophets have ceased is false
Here are s few scriptures to see the apostles AFTER the resurrection
1 Thessalonians 1 - 1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ... 1 Thessalonians 2 - 6. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”
Acts 13 - 1. Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them... Acts 14 - 14. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out”
I never said I was God speaking. That's why I'm done here, and for the same reason I quit before. You really just don't seem to understand any better than you respond.You are not God speaking. And scripture thoroughly furnishes the believer in the things of God. If you think you supplement this, you are adding to God's word.
You are God speaking if you relay what you imagined to be him speaking and put his stamp on it.I never said I was God speaking. That's why I'm done here, and for the same reason I quit before. You really just don't seem to understand any better than you respond.
The same could be said about bible teaching.You are God speaking if you relay what you imagined to be him speaking and put his stamp on it.
But, it's two totally different things. One is God's word, not of private interpretation. And the other your word of private interpretation.The same could be said about bible teaching.
Utterly wrong again.But, it's two totally different things. One is God's word, not of private interpretation.
Paul never said the 'the perfect' or 'completion' in 1 Cor 13 is the return of Christ. The fact that the 2nd coming is mentioned elsewhere in scripture does not give weight to that being the meaning in this particular passage. It is beside the point. Neither the 2nd coming nor the completion of the canon are explicitly named, so it is case of determining which of those 2 views are more favorable given the context.
The apostles knew they were writing scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) and that when they died there would obviously be no further apostles to write scripture. The canon would then be complete. Paul was well aware of the concept of a completed canon - he had one in his own hands, the OT. Now that they were in a new covenant era it would be perfectly reasonable for him to realise there would be a completed New Testament canon.
After 40 years of being a Christian and seeing the supernatural gifts operate in my life and in the lives of other Christians, I've reached the conclusion that Cessationism is straight from the pit of hell. God didn't end these gifts, but the devil is trying to rob God's people of gifts that we need to operate in the body of Christ.
I've also come to see that the Christian who has the gift of prophecy and uses it in the power of the Holy Spirit is like the canary in the coal mine. He/she is used by God to warn the church when they are getting off God's course. But this gift has been mostly silenced because of some who have abused it. It takes mature church leaders to allow the gifts to operate and make sure they aren't being abused, but it's doable and worth it!
But you move beyond scripture when you assume that.
Christ's return is always within the context of everything Paul has to say. The canon is never in the context of what Paul says.
You're speculating on what might have been in Paul's mind that he never alluded to. And again, we know for a fact that following the deaths of the apostles, there was no explicit effort on the part of the Church to create a definitive canon, so what is obvious is that the people Paul actually wrote those letters to did not have the same idea you have.
Just like atheists, cessationists reason, "We don't see miracles, so there are no miracles." You can give them witness of miracles, and they respond exactly as atheists do: "You just got it wrong."
And ultimately, the purpose of cessationists is exactly the same as the purpose of atheists: To destroy the faith of the Christians they meet.
You are presenting a false agenda for Christians, and depriving those on the right track.
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