The question cessationists must answer.

Francis Drake · Dec 4, 2018

swordsman1 said:
You have a heretical view of Christ.

Cessationism is a complete antichrist heresy.

Jesus did not give up his divinity and become an ordinary man.

Jesus was always God, but he walked in the power of the Holy Spirit, not his own divinity.
That's why he always emphasised himself as the "Son of man".
Every single miracle or deliverance came from the power of the Holy Spirit, not his divinity.
Matt12v28"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

If Jesus was nothing but a mere man then all the teaching he gave throughout his ministry would have no authority.

Jesus stated clearly that he did nothing of himself.
Jn5v19. So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

Francis Drake · Dec 4, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
Continuists always attack the person. It shows desperation in their theological position that they need to attack the poster, which then brings into question their relationship with the Holy Spirit. It’s not the best look.

That's self righteousness talking again.
You are completely blind to the plank in your own eye, despite all your personal attacks on me and other continuationists.

ToBeLoved · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
That's self righteousness talking again.
You are completely blind to the plank in your own eye, despite all your personal attacks on me and other continuationists.

The issue is the Holy Spirit of Truth and God’s Word are not showing me that plank you say I have.

So despite your opinion, I feel just fine about my relationship with God.

Their is no self righteousness looking at Gods Word and listening to the Holy Spirit. So I’m not sure where you get that from unless you feel convicted by God which could be the case.

ToBeLoved · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Jesus was always God, but he walked in the power of the Holy Spirit, not his own divinity.
That's why he always emphasised himself as the "Son of man".
Every single miracle or deliverance came from the power of the Holy Spirit, not his divinity.
Matt12v28"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus stated clearly that he did nothing of himself.
Jn5v19. So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

We all know Jesus chose not to use His divinity many times.

When He was tempted by Satan, Jesus said He COULD have called on legions of angels. Did He? No.

Jesus also said He COULD have resurrected Himself. Did He? No.

Because of these two proof texts, it is obvious that Jesus had the power to do many things but chose not to exercise that power.

Jesus didn’t need to bring glory to Himself. He brought glory to the Father and the Godhead.

Seems you have the wrong theology about what Christ could do.

ToBeLoved · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
This is what I said, which is about Cessationists condemning us as continuationists.
"You have spent your whole time on this thread condemning those who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit."

But as you bring it up, Cessationists on this thread have been constantly condemning the gifts of the Spirit today.

Why would I change my wording when I am adamant that the gifts have not ceased.
My post was an accurate statement of their strongly held position, and I am not responsible for their incessant profession of unbelief.

The whole of this thread has been argumentative and accusatory against those who believe in the gifts today.

We believers in the gifts have testified of miracles and healings and prophecies in our midst.
I testified of how the Lord warned me in advance to save my life in a car crash
I testified how the Lord had told me which street across town to find my wife's stolen car.
I testified how the Lord had given an accurate prophecy through my 4 year old son about us buying a house.
I testified about the Lord giving me visions to repair machinery at work.
I testified about the Lord giving dreams to resolve engineering problems that the specialists couldn't fix.
We have presented many testimonies of the gifts in use today, all are met with derision mockery and accusations of lies fake fraud etc. from Cessationists.
We have presented many scriptures to demonstrate the veracity of the gifts today, but the narrative of the cessationists is to discount any scripture but their own pet verses.

I am sorry if my responses offend you, but maybe you should step back and look at both sides equally.

The issue is a theological issue.

Sometimes when people have a personal investment in an area of theology, they make it personal.

IMHO, continuists May have a much larger investment in this theology and seem to take things personally, rather than discuss scripture.

I would hope that this thread gets back to theology and God’s Word where it belongs.

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Scripture is stacked against you. Certainly all Christians have the seed of the Holy Spirit within their spirit, otherwise they would be spiritually dead. But baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit is an experience of a very different order and for a different purpose.

I've met many ex cessationists who believed your false teaching, my wife being one of them. Then at a later stage after crying out to the Lord were suddenly baptised in the Holy Spirit. Realising immediately how much they'd been lied to by their faithless leaders, and deprived of their inheritance.

Although it may happen simultaneously, scripture shows that immersion or the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born of the Spirit.
Scripture also shows that being filled happens repeatedly to those who need or seek more of the Lord.

We know Peter and these people had already been filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, yet here they are filled again.
Acts4v 31And they having prayed, the place in which they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness.

We see Paul being initially filled with the Holy Spirit here.
Acts9v17And Ananias went away and entered into the house; and having laid the hands upon him, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, the One having appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me that you may see again and be filled of the Holy Spirit.”
And the filled again here-
Acts13v9But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,

And if all Christians are already filled with the Holy Spirit, then Paul's command here is a complete waste of breath.-
Eph5v18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

And of course the most notable example of someone being filled with the Holy Spirit as a second experience.-
Luke3v22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus lived 30 years as the genuine Son of God, but was not filled or empowered by the Holy Spirit till his baptism. ie. a second experience.

Not ONE verse that commands us to seek the "Baptism in the Holy Ghostbut that ALL are indwelt, and can also ALL be refilled continentally by Holy Spirit ! Do you see only tongue speakers can be infilled then by Him?

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

swordsman1 said:
You have a heretical view of Christ. Jesus did not give up his divinity and become an ordinary man. While he walked on earth He was fully God and fully man. How could he have the authority to forgive people's sins if he wasn't God (Mark 2:5)? The Jews knew exactly what he was claiming: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (v7). If Jesus was nothing but a mere man then all the teaching he gave throughout his ministry would have no authority. If Jesus was nothing but a man how could he make the claims: “before Abraham was born, I am!” and "I and the Father are one.”? And when he died on the Cross, if he died just as a human being, his death would not have been able to atone for the sins of others. Only an infinite sacrifice could do that. It was God's blood that was shed (Acts 20:28), not just a human's. Otherwise we would all be going to Hell.

He holds to the heresy of Knosis, as in Jesus while upon the earth laid aside his deity in order to function as a sinless man under the full power of the Holy Spirit...
This fits into WoF, as if Jesus could do all things by that way, we can do it also!
Jesus gave up voluntary His use of His divine attributes, but He was still always fully God!

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
I have given loads of examples that disprove your falsehood, but you have no interest in scripture unless you can twist.
Nevertheless here's an example of a believer getting himself demonised by entering into deception..

Acts5v1Now a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a property, 2and he kept back from the proceeds, also the wife being aware of it, and having brought a certain portion, he laid it at the feet of the apostles.
3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back from the proceeds of the land?

And before you try and claim that Ananias and his wife were not believers, the context in the previous verses do not allow that.
And if they were unbelievers, why would the Lord kill these two alone and not kill all the other unbelievers who wanted to kill the saints.

It states to us that Satan persuaded them to deny and tell the truth to peter, and so lie to the Holy Spirit, but Satan did not enter into them and possess them as he did Judas!

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
If you're not sure what was held back then go and read the accounts of his baptism by John. It's very clear there.

Blasphemy or not, I repeat, Jesus needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit to fulfil his ministry.

Jesus did not come as God, but laid aside his majesty in order to walk as an ordinary man. That's why he constantly referred to himself as the "Son of man!"

He did everything in his ministry, using the same Holy Spirit power that is available to the rest of us. That's why he also said, "Greater than this shall you do."

And that is why the cessationist doctrine is so iniquitous, robbing the sons of God of their calling and power.
Cessationists are doing what Satan did to Adam.

You are commiting hersy here, by denying that Jesus was still God while here on earth, and you are making Him to be like one of Us, just a mere man that the Holy Spirit is working thru, so we can do all things that he could do...
Which is impossible, as Jesus was and is fully God, but maybe your view is why Hagin claimed that every born again peers just as much an Incarnation of God as Jesus was?

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Ah, now I understand, you feel safe following the crowd through the wide gate.

Matt7v13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Personally I've always stuck to the narrow gateway, even though few use it.

Are you equating your view as being the real and true only view then?

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Boasting that other people's fruits are not as good as yours!
Yeah, great testimony Lol.

Where did I do that? I was just stating that the fruit of the Holy Spirit cannot be counterfeited!

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
You never consider that YOU might be deceived or a deceiver in saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ceased....that never occurs to you.

NONE here are saying that all gifts ceased, just that the ones given to the Apostles themselves have! And that there is no ongoing revelations coming forth from God either!

YeshuaFan · Dec 4, 2018

Alithis said:
So God is bad and does evil things to his redeemed?
My God doesnt ... Yours is very forign to me.

As i already told you ..we live as George muller did.
Trusting God for all our needs .. We have no job save the Gospel . Matthew ch 6 is stil the word of God.
Every person has faith ...
Well obviously not every person .
You should then repent and start believing what the lord JESUS said.

God wants all of to live by faith, bit not all of us to exercise the gift of faith!
And if I was to come down with cancer for example, is that satan hitting me, or just due to me still living under a cursed world?

Francis Drake · Dec 4, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
The issue is the Holy Spirit of Truth and God’s Word are not showing me that plank you say I have.

You don't need God's word to tell you.
Just look back at your posts, its there for all to see. You accuse me and others of exactly what you do. That's the plank in your eye.
If you can't read what's in front of your face, even the Holy Spirit won't penetrate.

Francis Drake · Dec 4, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
We all know Jesus chose not to use His divinity many times.

Agreed

When He was tempted by Satan, Jesus said He COULD have called on legions of angels. Did He? No.

Agreed

Jesus also said He COULD have resurrected Himself. Did He? No.

Agreed

Because of these two proof texts, it is obvious that Jesus had the power to do many things but chose not to exercise that power.

Agreed

Jesus didn’t need to bring glory to Himself. He brought glory to the Father and the Godhead.

Agreed

Seems you have the wrong theology about what Christ could do.

No, my theology has been correct all along. And all you have done is reinforce the very points I have been making.

NBB · Dec 4, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Not ONE verse that commands us to seek the "Baptism in the Holy Ghostbut that ALL are indwelt, and can also ALL be refilled continentally by Holy Spirit ! Do you see only tongue speakers can be infilled then by Him?

Don't drink wine, but be filled with the Holy spirit??? that was to christians... not unsaved person, be filled with the Holy spirit....

swordsman1 · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Jesus was always God,

I'm glad to see you have retracted your previous statement, "Jesus did not come as God". Jesus never gave up his divinity. He was fully God even when he walked the earth.

Francis Drake said:
That's why he always emphasised himself as the "Son of man".

No, he didn't always say that. He also referred to himself as the Son of God.

Luke 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
John 3:18 “.....because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"
John 10:36 "....because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
John 11:4 "....but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

He also did things using his own divine attributes such as forgiving people's sins, and exercising his omniscience.

Francis Drake said:
Jesus stated clearly that he did nothing of himself.
Jn5v19. So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

You have completely misunderstood that verse. Firstly it doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit, it speaks of the Father. And Jesus is not saying he would be weak and powerless if he worked without the Father. Jesus is saying it would be impossible for him to work without the Father! Read your own quote "For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.". That is because He and the Father are One (John 10:30).

Alithis · Dec 4, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
I think people posting on CF is way different from what is written in the Bible.

If you can’t see that I’m sure nothing I say will convince you.

Also, I don’t say their testimonies are not true. I just don’t hold them as highly as from someone I know in real life and I think that’s sensible.

Dont hold them as highly ?
You actually said peoole are gullible to believe testimonies
Yet testimony is one if the thungs by which we overcome the spirits of anti christ. ...
By the blood of the lamb
And the word of thier testimony
And they loved not thier lives even to the death.

ToBeLoved · Dec 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
You don't need God's word to tell you.
Just look back at your posts, its there for all to see. You accuse me and others of exactly what you do. That's the plank in your eye.
If you can't read what's in front of your face, even the Holy Spirit won't penetrate.

I think we need to stop responding to each other. I don’t think you can conversate in a Godly manner on this topic.

You have a wonderful and blessed week

ToBeLoved · Dec 4, 2018

Alithis said:
Dont hold them as highly ?
You actually said peoole are gullible to believe testimonies
Yet testimony is one if the thungs by which we overcome the spirits of anti christ. ...
By the blood of the lamb
And the word of thier testimony
And they loved not thier lives even to the death.

I said believing testimonies of people you do not know in real life, that are nameless and faceless on the Internet I hold those testimonies suspect.

That is only sensible unless one wants to belief something so badly they loose diligence.

The question cessationists must answer.

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