The Question Abortion Advocates Won’t Answer

[redleghunter]

Ps 139:16 "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them." NASB Do you see that it is "UNFORMED". how to you get life beginning at conception out of that? it has to have form to be considered a person. NO FORM = NO PERSON on what basis do you say otherwise.

Don’t know the point you are making here. The verse says:
all my days were written in Your book

and ordained for me

before one of them came to be.

Sounds like the psalmist is acknowledging we are precious to God at all stages of human life and development.

Do you really think the psalmist is teaching we are not alive in the womb? The text does not suggest that or even allude to that. In fact what you quoted actually supports the sanctity of human life from the beginning.

 

[SPF]

A human being takes approximately 25 years to fully develop. Yet at no point during our development are we not an actual human being. A health human being will look different at the different levels of development, but they look exactly like they should look at each given stage.

Thanks to advancements in science, we now know that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. It is at that moment that a new individual is created.

Biblically speaking, we know that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

I can't find anything in Scripture that would suggest there is ever a living human being that does not have a soul, or is not created in the image of God. Our moral worth and value come from the fact that we are created in the image of God. Our existence begins at fertilization.

There is no reason to think that we are not inherently morally valuable from our very beginning, which is fertilization.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Don’t know the point you are making here. The verse says:
all my days were written in Your book

and ordained for me

before one of them came to be.

Sounds like the psalmist is acknowledging we are precious to God at all stages of human life and development.

Do you really think the psalmist is teaching we are not alive in the womb? The text does not suggest that or even allude to that. In fact what you quoted actually supports the sanctity of human life from the beginning.

it says you are unformed. To be a person you I have to at least have a body. he is saying there is a point in which you have no body. It looks to me like you are simply ignoring what the text is say.

 

[redleghunter]

To be a person you I have to at least have a body.

Where does it say that?

 

[SPF]

it says you are unformed. To be a person you I have to at least have a body. he is saying there is a point in which you have no body. It looks to me like you are simply ignoring what the text is say.

Psalm 139 is some very beautiful poetry. However, I don't know of any credible theologian that would be called anything less than sloppy for attempting to take that poetry and use it as the foundation for a theological position such as you are. The more you dig your heels in on this one, the harder it is to actually consider what you say as credible.

Psalm 139:12-17 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!

What a beautiful passage. It really is. Our God is great, our God is creative. For me, this passage is comforting, and leaves me experience the emotion of awe in thinking about how loving and intimately involved with me God is.

But what it doesn't do, and what it shouldn't do, is serve as the platform for some theological argument about when a human being has a soul. It doesn't speak to that, it isn't meant to speak to that. And honestly, it's nothing short of hermeneutical gymnastics to try and twist this passage into saying what you're trying to make it say.

The significance of verse 16, in which the author says "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect" (KJV) is as Albert Barnes says, - "Before the embryo had any such form that its future size, shape, or proportions could be marked by the eye of man, it was clearly and distinctly known by God."

The point of the passage is simply to glorify how great God is and that he really knew us deeply and distinctly even before we were born.

Try again.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Nice personal attack. I take the view i take in confidence that it is the right view, because the Lord himself showed it to me after some questions came up. I did not come to this on my own. He literally walked me through it. Oh! BTW I am a serious Theologian. I hold a degree in theology, have Seminary Level training and done PHD Level work. You are not correct.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Psalm 139 is some very beautiful poetry. However, I don't know of any credible theologian that would be called anything less than sloppy for attempting to take that poetry and use it as the foundation for a theological position such as you are. The more you dig your heels in on this one, the harder it is to actually consider what you say as credible.

Psalm 139:12-17 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!

What a beautiful passage. It really is. Our God is great, our God is creative. For me, this passage is comforting, and leaves me experience the emotion of awe in thinking about how loving and intimately involved with me God is.

But what it doesn't do, and what it shouldn't do, is serve as the platform for some theological argument about when a human being has a soul. It doesn't speak to that, it isn't meant to speak to that. And honestly, it's nothing short of hermeneutical gymnastics to try and twist this passage into saying what you're trying to make it say.

The significance of verse 16, in which the author says "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect" (KJV) is as Albert Barnes says, - "Before the embryo had any such form that its future size, shape, or proportions could be marked by the eye of man, it was clearly and distinctly known by God."

The point of the passage is simply to glorify how great God is and that he really knew us deeply and distinctly even before we were born.

Try again.

it is talking about moving from unformed to formed and that his life was planned out by God, called FOREKNOWLEDGE.

 

[GodLovesCats]

So you would argue the killing of innocent human beings is conditional on their well-being in the world?

What if you were pregnant and your gynecologist told you said the fetus would be in the neonatal ICU if it is born alive with no chance of being taken off life support? I would not abort a pregnancy just because of the cost and stress to care for a disabled infant, but you have to consider the importance of quality of life versus letting it live only for the sake of keeping it alive. Is this what you want?

 

[GodLovesCats]

it says you are unformed. To be a person you I have to at least have a body. he is saying there is a point in which you have no body. It looks to me like you are simply ignoring what the text is say.

You have not shown redleghunter any text that explicitly states a human being becomes a person when it is fully formed.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You have not shown redleghunter any text that explicitly states a human being becomes a person when it is fully formed.

And you have not show me one that is explicitly shows me that life begins at conception. Double standard

 

[redleghunter]

What if you were pregnant and your gynecologist told you said the fetus would be in the neonatal ICU if it is born alive with no chance of being taken off life support? I would not abort a pregnancy just because of the cost and stress to care for a disabled infant, but you have to consider the importance of quality of life versus letting it live only for the sake of keeping it alive. Is this what you want?

What would you do?

 

[GodLovesCats]

What would you do?

I asked you first. Go ahead.

 

[GodLovesCats]

And you have not show me one that is explicitly shows me that life begins at conception. Double standard.

I forget the exact passage, but God says He knew you before conception and knitted you, describing your body parts being added to give you a full body. SPF knows it.

 

[redleghunter]

I asked you first. Go ahead.

You presented a “Kobayashi Maru” which in all politeness, the setter should explain how they spring their own trap.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Where does it say that?

1 thess 5
Body, spirit, soul all 3 must be present

 

[redleghunter]

I asked you first. Go ahead.

But anyway. This one is quite easy. I would not directly kill my own child.

 

[redleghunter]

1 thess 5
Body, spirit, soul all 3 must be present

Once again, what makes you think not all are present at fertilization?

The only body in the Bible absent a soul is a body which assumes room temperature. That would be a dead body.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You postulate the belief and the statement that life begins at conception. I'm crying foul. The scripture never outright says that. So I am asking the question where do you get that. Where does the scripture directly say life begins at conception. You are using CIA, conclusion, interpretation, assumption. you assume your position and then interpret the passage according to your assumption that according to what it actually says and then you draw conclusion based upon that interpretation that does not have any merit. Show me where the text says life begins at conception

 

[GodLovesCats]

But anyway. This one is quite easy. I would not directly kill my own child.

Abortions are not directly killing your own child, obviously.

BTW it would not be as easy as you think.

 

[redleghunter]

You postulate the belief and the statement that life begins at conception. I'm crying foul. The scripture never outright says that. So I am asking the question where do you get that. Where does the scripture directly say life begins at conception. You are using CIA, conclusion, interpretation, assumption. you assume your position and then interpret the passage according to your assumption that according to what it actually says and then you draw conclusion based upon that interpretation that does not have any merit. Show me where the text says life begins at conception

By basic scientific observation we know without a doubt human beings become distinct individuals, alive by every biological standard at conception.

The apostle Paul tells the Romans the following:

Romans 1: NASB

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Scientific observation falls into the category of the bold above.

The Scriptures testify that a body without a soul is dead.

Death, Death-stroke (see also Die)

[ A-1,Noun,G2288, thanatos ]
death," is used in Scripture of:
(a) the separation of the soul (the spiritual part of man) from the body (the material part), the latter ceasing to function and turning to dust, e.g., John 11:13; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 5:7; Hebrews 7:23. In Hebrews 9:15, the AV, "by means of death" is inadequate; the RV, "a death having taken place" is in keeping with the subject. In Revelation 13:3, Revelation 13:12, the RV, "death-stroke" (AV, "deadly wound") is, lit., "the stroke of death:"

Death, Death-stroke (see also Die) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words


You must show how we are dead in the womb before becoming alive.