The Question Abortion Advocates Won’t Answer

[redleghunter]

The unborn is a unique fertilized egg that will mature to adulthood given the best possible environment and nurturing and an average investestment of about $233,610 from birth through age 17 for a middle-income family. (USDA average estimate) This support is likely to come from the mother that carries the child the first 9 months of development. The nutrition and personality of the adult 17 year old, will likely be highly influenced by the mother. Any drugs and physical dangers will impact the child's development and how it turns out after 17 years of support. After that, the unborn will no longer be a legally dependant child.

What does money have to do with this?

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What does money have to do with this?

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

Money has a lot to do with a teenage girl's decision to get an abortion instead of carry her unwanted baby to term. If you can't understand this, that is your problem, not hers. Read that again: a teenage girl.

 

[redleghunter]

Money has a lot to do with a teenage girl's decision to get an abortion instead of carry her unwanted baby to term. If you can't understand this, that is your problem, not hers. Read that again: a teenage girl.

You then have a problem with premise 1? Where financial matters allows for the killing of a human being?

 

[GodLovesCats]

You then have a problem with premise 1? Where financial matters allows for the killing of a human being?

Do you just want to argue or seriously want to understand the problem girls with no money have after an idiot rapes them?

 

[redleghunter]

Do you just want to argue or seriously want to understand the problem girls with no money have after an idiot rapes them?

I’m completely serious. How does a violent act of another party call premise 1 into question?

 

[GodLovesCats]

I’m completely serious. How does a violent act of another party call premise 1 into question?

Punishing the rape victim for trying to solve her problem is double jeopardy. You tell me how she can just put up with carrying her baby to term with no means for getting the healh care and counseling she needs or the ability to take care of both herself and her unwanted baby for nine months. Sure, it would be much better not to abort the pregnancy, but nobody should be criminalized for being a violent crime victim.

 

[redleghunter]

Punishing the rape victim for trying to solve her problem is double jeopardy. You tell me how she can just put up with carrying her baby to term with no means for getting the healh care and counseling she needs or the ability to take care of both herself and her unwanted baby for nine months. Sure, it would be much better not to abort the pregnancy, but nobody should be criminalized for being a violent crime victim.

Does a violent crime as in rape change the statement?

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

What changes? Is the conceived child now considered not innocent. Does not aborting the child make them a victim as well?

 

[GodLovesCats]

You wanted to know what money has to do with abortion. That was my answer.

Obviously abortion is killing human beings on purpose. I was just trying to settle the money issue.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Does a violent crime as in rape change the statement?

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

What changes? Is the conceived child now considered not innocent. Does not aborting the child make them a victim as well?

your premise assumes that life is the only thing that matters. Take the case of slavery. As long as a person is a live it does not matter what conditions or circumstances they are in, because they are alive and life is all that matter. well life matters but it is not the only thing that matters.

 

[redleghunter]

your premise assumes that life is the only thing that matters. Take the case of slavery. As long as a person is a live it does not matter what conditions or circumstances they are in, because they are alive and life is all that matter. well life matters but it is not the only thing that matters.

So you would argue the killing of innocent human beings is conditional on their well-being in the world?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

the premise that Life begins a conception is not supported by the Scriptures. it is CIA, Conclusion, Interpretation, Assumption. A conclusion, built off an interpretation, built off an assumption that life begins at conception. SCRIPTURE NO WHERE SAYS THAT.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

So you would argue the killing of innocent human beings is conditional on their well-being in the world?

I would argue, that you are not concerned with the well being of people, so your argument has no merit to begin with. What do you care about? the child, you don't have to feed it, take care of it, raise it, nurture it and love it. You are concerned for yourself not for the child. you cannot deal with the uglyness of a sinful fallen world, so you have constructed in your mind a solution that allows you to act like you are a moral person when you are really immoral to begin with. While the child may have value, it will not be valued, it is unwanted, unplanned and unloved. you don't have to live with the consequences of the life being concived, the woman and the child have to live with the consequences. those that have to live with the consequences are the ones that have the say.

 

[redleghunter]

the premise that Life begins a conception is not supported by the Scriptures.

How do you come to this conclusion?

it is CIA, Conclusion, Interpretation, Assumption.

Actually supported by medical science.

A conclusion, built off an interpretation, built off an assumption that life begins at conception.

If human life does not begin at conception then when does it begin and what are we before your arbitrary point.

SCRIPTURE NO WHERE SAYS THAT.

Maybe you can share your understanding of lifeless human beings in the womb supported by the Scriptures.

You still have not addressed:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

 

[redleghunter]

I would argue, that you are not concerned with the well being of people, so your argument has no merit to begin with. What do you care about? the child, you don't have to feed it, take care of it, raise it, nurture it and love it. You are concerned for yourself not for the child. you cannot deal with the uglyness of a sinful fallen world, so you have constructed in your mind a solution that allows you to act like you are a moral person when you are really immoral to begin with.

You have evidence I do not care for the well being of other human beings? What you wrote above still avoids the syllogism.

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You have evidence I do not care for the well being of other human beings? What you wrote above still avoids the syllogism.

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

you syllogism is invalid

 

[redleghunter]

you syllogism is invalid

Based on what exactly? Let's follow through.

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.

Prove to me a situation where it is morally acceptable to kill innocent human beings?​

Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.

Prove to me that abortion is not intentionally killing innocent human beings.​

Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.


I guess you can then explain why it is morally acceptable to kill innocent human beings at certain stages of their life as opposed to others.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

How do you come to this conclusion?

Do you have a passage that says life begins at conception. Something happens at conception sure, but it is not alive. The process of forming the body begins, but it is not alive.

Actually supported by medical science.

no evidence no proof.

If human life does not begin at conception then when does it begin and what are we before your arbitrary point.

the scripture says we are BODY,SOUL, SPIRIT 1Thess 5:23 Gen 2:7, It also says that, "the body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26, and if the Soul is apart from the body we are with the Lord. 2 Cor 2:8, If the body has to have a soul and a spirit it is right to ask the question when does the spirit and soul enter into the body. Is it at conception or some time later. whenever the Spirit and Soul are present in the body you have a person, whenever they are not there you do not. So what begin at conception, the Formation of the Body PS 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body" scripture says you are unformed. Ps 139:13 you fromed my inward parts , you knitted me in my mothers womb. " notices: you are formed the construction of the body occurs. not one word about it being conscience during the process. that is a conclusion people make based on the prior assumption. Now look at what it says about Christ. "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" Notice it says that a body had to be prepared for Christ when he entered the world. NOW ask youself this question, did Christ enter the body before it was prepared or after? AFTER, if after then was there another consciousness in the body before he entered into the body? NO. then there can be no consciousness until the soul enters the body, then the body must not be conscious and must not be alive.

Maybe you can share your understanding of lifeless human beings in the womb supported by the Scriptures.

See above.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Based on what exactly? Let's follow through.

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.

Prove to me a situation where it is morally acceptable to kill innocent human beings?​

Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.

Prove to me that abortion is not intentionally killing innocent human beings.​

Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.


I guess you can then explain why it is morally acceptable to kill innocent human beings at certain stages of their life as opposed to others.

you assume ideal conditions, you do not assume a fallen sinful world. Your logic only works if everything is perfect and there is no sin. Under ideal conditions it would be wrong , but there may be conditions in which a person might have to kill an innocent child. for example, a slave women murder her children in order to save them from being raped,violated, exploited and abused. by the slave master. the child was conceived in rape and the only life for that child was abuse and misery and cruelty. under your logic it would be evil for her to do that, not evil for the child to be abused.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you have a passage that says life begins at conception. Something happens at conception sure, but it is not alive. The process of forming the body begins, but it is not alive.

no evidence no proof.

Sure there is. The Bible refers to all born as "begat" is the beginning. Meaning fathered. The father has a unique role in that it is a one time deal.

Do you really want me to dig up High School textbooks which show we come into existence as individual human beings at conception?

WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.


The question as to when the physical material dimension of a human being begins is strictly a scientific question, and fundamentally should be answered by human embryologists�not by philosophers, bioethicists, theologians, politicians, x-ray technicians, movie stars, or obstetricians and gynecologists. The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question. Current discussions on abortion, human embryo research (including cloning, stem cell research, and the formation of mixed-species chimeras), and the use of abortifacients involve specific claims as to when the life of every human being begins. If the "science" used to ground these various discussions is incorrect, then any conclusions will be rendered groundless and invalid. The purpose of this article is to focus primarily on a sampling of the "scientific" myths, and on the objective scientific facts that ought to ground these discussions. At least it will clarify what the actual international consensus of human embryologists is with regard to this relatively simple scientific question. In the final section, I will also address some "scientific" myths that have caused much confusion within the philosophical discussions on "personhood."

II. When does a human being begin?

Getting a handle on just a few basic human embryological terms accurately can considerably clarify the drastic difference between the "scientific" myths that are currently circulating, and the actual objective scientific facts. This would include such basic terms as: "gametogenesis," "oogenesis," "spermatogenesis," "fertilization," "zygote," "embryo," and "blastocyst." Only brief scientific descriptions will be given here for these terms. Further, more complicated, details can be obtained by investigating any well-established human embryology textbook in the library, such as some of those referenced below. Please note that the scientific facts presented here are not simply a matter of my own opinion. They are direct quotes and references from some of the most highly respected human embryology textbooks, and represent a consensus of human embryologists internationally.



A. Basic human embryological facts

To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization�the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte�usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (a single-cell embryonic human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

The Developing Human Being
By Keith Moore, and T.V.N. Persaud
7th edition, 2003

From an introductory definition section:

“Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte(ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death, differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell – a zygote – into a multicellular human being. Although most developmental changes occur during the embryonic and fetal periods, important changes occur during later periods of development: infancy, childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” (p. 2)

“Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” (p. 2)

“Embryo. The developing human during its early stages of development. Theembryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.” (p. 3)

From chapter 2: “The Beginning of Human Development: First Week”

First sentence of the Chapter: “Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell – a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” (p. 16)

“Studies on early stages of development indicate that human oocytes are usually fertilized with 12 hours after ovulation. In vitro observations have shown that the oocyte cannot be fertilized after 24 hours and this it degenerates shortly thereafter.” [This would buttress our argument that sperm and ovum by themselves are parts of the parents and not entire beings. That there is a substantial change between gametes and zygotes.] (p. 31)

“The zygote is genetically unique because half of its chromosomes come from the mother and half from the father. The zygote contains a new combination of chromosomes that is different from that in the cells of either of the parents.” (p. 33)

“Cleavage consists of repeated mitotic divisions of the zygote, resulting in a rapid increase in the number of cells. The embryonic cells – blastomeres – become smaller with each cleavage division. First the zygote divides into two blastomores, which then divide into four blastomores, either blastomeres, and so on.” (p. 36-37) [We can use the cleavage discussion to show that now the embryo is operating on its own and developing.]

And more:

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.html

Peer Reviewed studies:

1. 
   
   
   • Fertilization. 2013.
     “Fertilization-the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism-is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.”
     ——————————————————————
   • The oocyte-to-embryo transition. 2013.
     “The oocyte-to-embryo transition refers to the process whereby a fully grown, relatively quiescent oocyte undergoes maturation, fertilization, and is converted into a developmentally active, mitotically dividing embryo, arguably one of the most dramatic transitions in biology.”
     ——————————————————————
   • A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation. 2010.
     “The life cycle of mammals begins when a sperm enters an egg. Immediately after fertilization, both the maternal and paternal genomes undergo dramatic reprogramming to prepare for the transition from germ cell to somatic cell transcription programs.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Roles of the oviduct in mammalian fertilization. 2012
     The oviduct or Fallopian tube is the anatomical region where every new life begins in mammalian species. After a long journey, the spermatozoa meet the oocyte in the specific site of the oviduct named ampulla and fertilization takes place”
     ——————————————————————
   • Model systems for membrane fusion. 2011
     “Membrane fusion has an overarching influence on living organisms. The fusion of sperm and egg membranes initiates the life of a sexually reproducing organism.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Penetration, adhesion, and fusion in mammalian sperm-egg interaction. 2002.
     “Fertilization is the sum of the cellular mechanisms that pass the genome from one generation to the next and initiate development of a new organism.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation. 2012
     “Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”
     ——————————————————————
   • The cell cycle: a new entry in the field of Ca2+ signaling. 2005.
     “Ca2+ signaling plays a crucial role in virtually all cellular processes, from the origin of new life at fertilization to the end of life when cells die.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Oviductal, endometrial and embryonic gene expression patterns as molecular clues for pregnancy establishment. 2012.
     “In higher animals, the beginning of new life and transfer of genetic material to the next generation occurs in the oviduct when two distinct gametes cells unite resulting in the formation of a zygote“
     ——————————————————————
   • Calcium channels in the development, maturation, and function of spermatozoa. 2011.
     “A proper dialogue between spermatozoa and the egg is essential for conception of a new individual in sexually reproducing animals. Ca(2+) is crucial in orchestrating this unique event leading to a new life.“
     ——————————————————————
   • Acrosome reaction in the cumulus oophorus revisited: involvement of a novel sperm-released factor NYD-SP8. 2011.
     “Fertilization is a process involving multiple steps that lead to the final fusion of one sperm and the oocyte to form the zygote.”
     ——————————————————————
   • The immunoglobulin superfamily protein Izumo is required for sperm to fuse with eggs. 2005.
     “Representing the 60 trillion cells that build a human body, a sperm and an egg meet, recognize each other, and fuse to form a new generation of life.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Signal transduction pathways leading to Ca2+ release in a vertebrate model
     system: lessons from Xenopus eggs. 2006
     “At fertilization, eggs unite with sperm to initiate developmental programs that give rise to development of the embryo. Defining the molecular mechanism of this fundamental process at the beginning of life has been a key question in cell and developmental biology.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Starting a new life: Sperm PLC-zeta mobilizes the Ca2+ signal that induces egg activation and embryo development. 2011.
     “We have discovered that a single sperm protein, phospholipase C-zeta (PLCζ), can stimulate intracellular Ca(2+) signalling in the unfertilized oocyte (‘egg’) culminating in the initiation of embryonic development. Upon fertilization by a spermatozoon, the earliest observed signalling event in the dormant egg is a large, transient increase in free Ca(2+) concentration. The fertilized egg responds to the intracellular Ca(2+) rise by completing meiosis“
     ——————————————————————
   • How to make a good egg!: The need for remodeling of oocyte Ca(2+) signaling to mediate the egg-to-embryo transition. 2012
     “The egg-to-embryo transition marks the initiation of multicellular organismal development and is mediated by a specialized Ca(2+) transient at fertilization.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Ca2+ signaling differentiation during oocyte maturation. 2007.
     “Oocyte maturation is an essential cellular differentiation pathway that prepares the egg for activation at fertilization leading to the initiation of embryogenesis”
     ——————————————————————
   • Sperm-egg fusion assay in mammals. 2008.
     “As representatives of the 60 trillion cells that make a human body, a sperm and an egg meet, recognize each other, and fuse to create a new generation.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Sperm chromatin: fertile grounds for proteomic discovery of clinical tools. 2008.
     “Sperm are remarkably complex cells with a singularly important mission: to deliver paternal DNA and its associated factors to the oocyte to start a new life.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Gene expression during the oocyte-to-embryo transition in mammals. 2009.
     “The seminal question in modern developmental biology is the origins of new life arising from the unification of sperm and egg. The roots of this question begin from 19th to 20th century embryologists studying fertilization and embryogenesis.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Fertilization and the oocyte-to-embryo transition in C. elegans. 2010.
     “Fertilization is a complex process comprised of numerous steps. During fertilization, two highly specialized and differentiated cells (sperm and egg) fuse and subsequently trigger the development of an embryo from a quiescent, arrested oocyte”
     ——————————————————————
   • A profile of fertilization in mammals. 2001.
     “Fertilization is defined as the process of union of two gametes, eggs and sperm. When mammalian eggs and sperm come into contact in the female oviduct, a series of steps is set in motion that can lead to fertilization and ultimately to development of new individuals.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Cell fusion during development. 2007.
     “Most readers of this review originated from a sperm-egg fusion event.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Sperm-egg fusion assay in mammals. 2008.
     “As representatives of the 60 trillion cells that make a human body, a sperm and an egg meet, recognize each other, and fuse to create a new generation. Thus, gamete fusion is an extremely important process that must transpire without error to launch life activity.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Model systems for membrane fusion. 2011.
     “Membrane fusion has an overarching influence on living organisms. The fusion of sperm and egg membranes initiates the life of a sexually reproducing organism. Intracellular membrane fusion facilitates molecular trafficking within every cell of the organism during its entire lifetime, and virus-cell membrane fusion may signal the end of the organism’s life.”
     ——————————————————————
   • Sperm-egg interaction. 2012.
     “A crucial step of fertilization is the sperm-egg interaction that allows the two gametes to fuse and create the zygote.”

 

[redleghunter]

the scripture says we are BODY,SOUL, SPIRIT 1Thess 5:23 Gen 2:7, It also says that, "the body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26, and if the Soul is apart from the body we are with the Lord. 2 Cor 2:8, If the body has to have a soul and a spirit it is right to ask the question when does the spirit and soul enter into the body. Is it at conception or some time later. whenever the Spirit and Soul are present in the body you have a person, whenever they are not there you do not. So what begin at conception, the Formation of the Body PS 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body" scripture says you are unformed. Ps 139:13 you fromed my inward parts , you knitted me in my mothers womb. " notices: you are formed the construction of the body occurs. not one word about it being conscience during the process. that is a conclusion people make based on the prior assumption. Now look at what it says about Christ. "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" Notice it says that a body had to be prepared for Christ when he entered the world. NOW ask youself this question, did Christ enter the body before it was prepared or after? AFTER, if after then was there another consciousness in the body before he entered into the body? NO. then there can be no consciousness until the soul enters the body, then the body must not be conscious and must not be alive.

Yes the body without the soul/spirit is what is called dead. So your argument is we are all dead up to some point in gestation? When is that and where is the Scriptural or even scientific support for that. Which means you are arguing we are not human at conception. What are we?

Oh and at what point was the Divine Logos Jesus Christ God the Son not a human being within the womb of Mary? Or are we going to have to discuss some Christology before we set off on here. When was that "body" prepared? What stage of development? When was Jesus not an innocent human life in the womb? Need facts now.

AFTER, if after then was there another consciousness in the body before he entered into the body? NO. then there can be no consciousness until the soul enters the body, then the body must not be conscious and must not be alive.

Wow, how do you conclude that?

So basically you are saying since we can't figure out when a soul enters the body, even though we know a soulless body is dead, yet at conception we know we are alive, you have twisted this to adhere to at least two ancient heresies with regards to Christology. Not to mention not coming up with a definitive point in which we reach this 'alive' point? When is it? Are we morally inferior before this point. Define alive, because we have scientific evidence we are alive at fertilization. References posted above.

Is not the Christian position that Jesus Christ is Truly God and Truly human and that he has two natures (divine and human) but is One Person? So I guess the follow up question would be at what point was Jesus Christ "two persons?"

Which leads me back to what was originally presented:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.​

Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.​

Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

What you wrote in no way addressed premise 1 or premise 2. Plus now using the Incarnation of Jesus Christ you are trying to show me at some point Jesus was not human or 'alive.' ​