The Purpose of the Rapture.

Timtofly said:

Where are two Trumpets mentioned in these verses?

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The 2 trumpets are not mentioned here thus we can conclude that the Pauline rapture is taking place at another time and season

Timtofly said:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

One Trumpet.

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Correct one trumpet sounds off to gather the elect by sending out angels taken place at the end of the tribulation which is apart from the 7 trumpets of judgments mentioned in revelation after the opening of the 7th seal… So the sounding off of trumpets during different events taking place is possible

Timtofly said:

There are no Trumpets in Revelation 19 at all.

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True but there is one for sure immediately after the tribulation is over that will send angels out to gather the elect….Rev 19 ends the tribulation so immediately after He will send His angels with the sound of a trumpet to gathered the scattered elect who fled the tribulation

Timtofly said:

But there are stars in these verses:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places..... hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

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The stars falling out of heaven onto the earth are literal … It will be an eerie sight only made possible by God

Timtofly said:

The 5th Trumpet is the church being glorified.

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Never heard this one before but let’s take a look at the judgement of the 5th trumpet

[9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.]

The 5th trumpet is the first woe that torments men who were not sealed for 5 months

The star in this case is an angel with the key to open the abyss and release the Locust demons and their leader abaddon a fallen angel who was bound yet released again.

Timtofly said:

How many times will this event happen in reality? A few glorified at each time?

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I believe so … The children of God adopted by Jesus will experience it first

Then the martyred saints who are seen under the alter at the opening of the 5th seal who are given white robes which suggest a resurrection with no mention of a trumpet sounding off

Then the 144000 are caught up to heaven at some point with no mentioning of when and how

Then there are the rest of the tribulation saints of every tribe and nation that came out of great tribulation but washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb with no mention of when and how

Then you have the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses going up to heaven with no mention of a trumpet sounding off but a description was given.

They are killed by the angel from the bottomless pit abaddon and people refuse to bury them. After 3 1/2 days they are resurrected and stood on their feet and a voice from heaven told them to come up here and they went up on a cloud while their enemies watch .

Timtofly said:

No they don't. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is only a return if Jesus and the 144k leave earth for 42 months. If there are no 42 months, Armageddon will not even happen. John gives us the worse case scenario. It has not happened yet. Until it does happen, no one can state it does happen.

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There's not one verse in the entire bible that states Christ will return before the tribulation of the last days.

It's so simple- the disciples asks for signs to the end of this world/age and his coming (singular) and he lays it out perfectly. It states "immediately after the tribulation of those days...."

Why would we want to expand or change his teaching on the very subject? A subject he tells one not to be be deceived about by any means?

The mystery that Paul talks about is that all are "changed" at the last trump, it's not talking about a pretrib rapture to heaven.

Again, we have to let the scriptures speak for themselves on this subject.

dfw69 said:

Yes there is Jesus said so in John 14 which he clearly says he’s returning from heaven to gather us up to take us to His fathers house with many abode’s already in existence

He also told nicodemus that to get to the kingdom of heaven one must be change by the Holy Spirit to enter in

And Paul taught the change takes place at the sounding of 2 trumpets





Has not there been enough persecution since the birth of Christianity? When you look around do you see rainbows and butterflies?


There are more than one type of tribulations revealed in scripture. Its the last tribulation known as jacobs trouble that Jesus returns to reign in Jerusalem from heaven


To establish the throne of David as promised to the Jews



Tribes of Israel will mourn when they see Him coming with clouds




Jesus will gather the scattered the elect to Israel to receive their land portions as prophecied


Paul was referring the day of the Lord wrath not the rapture

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Both Jesus and Paul state that the coming of Jesus is not until after the man of sin is revealed, the anti-Christ. His appearance is firmly within the tribulation.

Jesus
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Mat 24:15-21 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ...
Mat 24:29-30 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Paul
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2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

FutureAndAHope said:

Both Jesus and Paul state that the coming of Jesus is not until after the man of sin is revealed, the anti-Christ. His appearance is firmly within the tribulation.

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That’s not correct

FutureAndAHope said:

Jesus
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Mat 24:15-21 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ...
Mat 24:29-30 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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This is His coming to judge and reign over the Jews. He is answering a Jewish question with no description nor mentioning of the Pauline rapture

FutureAndAHope said:

Paul
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2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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Paul is revealing when the day of the Lords wrath comes which is after the fallen away and man of sin sits in the temple because there were false teachers saying the day of the Lord has come which he had to address

He addresses the our rapture here 2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

We have a hope to obtain the glory of the Lord when He comes for us appearing in the sky to sound of 2 trumpets to gather us up to take us to His Fathers house where there and many abodes awaiting us

Sorn said:

Christians have always gone or experienced tribulation (persecution) to a greater or lesser extent. However these tribulations have been the 'world' persecuting the Christian.

The Great Tribulation will be the reverse so to speak, it will be God persecuting the World. He will not visit His own wrath (not the tribulation wrath) on His own, the church, so He WILL take them out of the world first

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Where does it say it will be on the whole world?

Sorn said:

I did explain it, i'll try s l o w e r,
the 7 churches are 7 congregations of Jews. The setting in post the rapture, the church is not on earth anymore, God is dealing with the Jews under the Law of Moses. He also judges the world then at the SAME time that the antichrist & the beast are wreaking their havoc on the world, hence why 'no good being here amigo!'. Luckily God spares the church this double whammy.

I'm not going to transcript the video, watch it if you want to know more.

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you have just explained why it is not worth watching, thank you for saving us the trouble.

dfw69 said:

He did not …Paul did ..When he returns to meet us in the air

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you are twisting the word there. It is us who will meet him as he is descending.

Sorn said:

Rev 20:12-13 is a resurrection, the final resurrection, not a rapture.

Not that I want to get into a conversation with you and also I am not going to give verses but if want to understand more then watch the linked video. Presents a good case for 3 mass resurrections, the 1st one being at the same time as the traditional pre-trib rapture.
Only living people are raptured, dead people are resurrected.
The 3 resurrections are :
1) Pre trib
2) Post trib
3) Post millennium

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When somebody says "Rightly dividing" it usually means they are making it up. Is that white haired geezer you?

Diamond7 said:

The "fly away doctrine" might refer to a particular interpretation or teaching within a specific religious context, but without more context, it's challenging to provide a precise explanation or interpretation of this statement. This passage has been interpreted differently within various Christian traditions, and not all Christians believe in the Rapture or interpret these verses in the same way. It's a topic of theological debate and discussion among Christians. 14:16

The word "caught up" is in the Bible. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) is used 14 times. Sometimes translated to pluck or take by force.

Most Christians believe that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Jesus. Only we leave our physical body behind, to be raised at the resurrection whenever that is. Most likely after the 1000-year reign of Christ when there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth. Actually, there were people resurrected when Jesus died at Calvary, but we do not know what happened to them. I suppose we can assume they are with Jesus in Heaven even though they have a physical body now.

Perhaps you do not believe in a 7 year tribulation. Or you do not believe God will remove the Church before He pours His wrath out.

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 What is the Lord going to do at the beginning?

Timtofly said:

Many declare the 70th week of Daniel 9 was finished in the first century. That did not happen. The rule of Jesus on a throne in Jerusalem was placed on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Satan's 42 months is another interruption to the 70th week. Now we won't know until it actually happens.

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The seventy weeks were a complete unit. 69 to the baptism of Christ. the seventieth began then during His ministry. In the midst of the week he was cut off. The final half of week his ministry to many, the Jews continued through the preaching of the apostles until the conversion of Cornelius and his household.

David Kent said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 What is the Lord going to do at the beginning?

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Beginning of what?

David Kent said:

you are twisting the word there. It is us who will meet him as he is descending.

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Yea that’s what I meant ..We meet Him

He descends just to the clouds and just in the sky to make His appearance …He stops descending there in the clouds in the sky … then sounds 2 trumpets which raises the dead and transforms the living at a blink of an eye .. then we go up to meet Him in the sky …..to go to our heavenly abode in heaven with our newly acquired heavenly bodies

He will lead the way to the Fathers house with many abodes already awaiting us

The rest of the world will continue on … a false messianic age forms….

Jesus does not return to established the kingdom and true messianic age until the wrath is poured out at the end of the false messianic age

dfw69 said:

True but there is one for sure immediately after the tribulation is over that will send angels out to gather the elect….Rev 19 ends the tribulation so immediately after He will send His angels with the sound of a trumpet to gathered the scattered elect who fled the tribulation.

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Revelation 19 does not end the Tribulation. Revelation 19 ends the 42 months of AoD, that happens after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. The 7th Trumpet declared Jacob's trouble over. Jacob's Trouble is the great tribulation, because it applies to the history of Israel, not the entire world of nations. The rest of the world just gets to endure Jacob's trouble.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

That all stops at Armageddon. The AoD starts in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 comes after Revelation 11.

JulieB67 said:

There's not one verse in the entire bible that states Christ will return before the tribulation of the last days.

It's so simple- the disciples asks for signs to the end of this world/age and his coming (singular) and he lays it out perfectly. It states "immediately after the tribulation of those days...."

Why would we want to expand or change his teaching on the very subject? A subject he tells one not to be be deceived about by any means?

The mystery that Paul talks about is that all are "changed" at the last trump, it's not talking about a pretrib rapture to heaven.

Again, we have to let the scriptures speak for themselves on this subject.

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The tribulation of those days is the tribulation that started in the first century with the disciples and ongoing for the last 1993 years. The tribulation that Jesus said the entire church would go through.

David Kent said:

The seventy weeks were a complete unit. 69 to the baptism of Christ. the seventieth began then during His ministry. In the midst of the week he was cut off. The final half of week his ministry to many, the Jews continued through the preaching of the apostles until the conversion of Cornelius and his household.

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No, the final half is Jesus sitting as King on a throne in Jerusalem.

The Messiah was cut off and the King part placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. If the 70th week was already completed, none of us would exist. We are the last of the fulness of the Gentiles. That was 1993 years ago. The Day of the Lord was only 1,000 years. It would have been over hundreds of years ago.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 19 does not end the Tribulation. Revelation 19 ends the 42 months of AoD, that happens after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. The 7th Trumpet declared Jacob's trouble over. Jacob's Trouble is the great tribulation, because it applies to the history of Israel, not the entire world of nations. The rest of the world just gets to endure Jacob's trouble.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

That all stops at Armageddon. The AoD starts in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 comes after Revelation 11.

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So let me see if I understand you

The seals and trumpets are taking place during Jacobs trouble as the reason for jacobs trouble and great tribulation that you believe ends at the sound of the 7 trumpet?

Then comes the AOD which is a tribulation in itself for those who do not worship the image of the beast in Jerusalem right?

the 7 vails judgements and hreat harvests of rev 19 end the AOD?

dfw69 said:

The stars falling out of heaven onto the earth are literal … It will be an eerie sight only made possible by God

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"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

Are you saying a literal star hits the earth and opens up a hole straight to the bottomless pit?

dfw69 said:

Then comes the AOD which is a tribulation in itself for those who do not worship the image of the beast in Jerusalem right?

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Not tribulation. Abomination. This is Hollywood's worse imagination of evil lived out literally on earth.

There are no martyrs, and no persecution of the righteous. There are no righteous. There are some fed up with the system, who to avoid the mark, choose to chop off their head instead. Fence sitters who are to flee from all the debauchery. They have to decide to choose life or remain in Adam's dead state for eternity. The decision cannot be forced by others. It has to be their own choice to make. Once the choice is made, it is permanent. No going back and forth, one minute with a head, then without, and then head back on. And no taking the mark, removing it, taking it again. This is not like today where one goes back and forth pretending to be saved one minute, and lost the next.

While some are arguing over whether or not there are sacrifices or a new temple or not, that is not what the meaning is about, sacrifices taken away. That was OT economy words, but they have a NT connotation. The salvation by faith is taken away. The second birth is taken away. That is what is stopped in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Chopping one's head off is the testimony of salvation. Those beheaded still have to stand before thrones and be judged. The church was judged on the Cross. The sheep stand in judgment before Jesus as King on His throne. Even the wheat are judged by Jesus as He is the one sowing and reaping. The difference is that the sheep and the wheat are the army coming to Armageddon. Those beheaded still have to wait until after Armageddon and Satan is bound. They are judged as part of the restoration of earth, preparing for the first day of the Millennium.

There is no judgment nor tribulation pointed towards any particular group of people during the AoD. Every one is equally an abomination. The wrath is poured out after the 42 months, during the 3.5 days those 2 witnesses lay dead in the street in Jerusalem. The only repeated event in Revelation is the earthquake in Revelation 11:13 and in Revelation 16:18-19

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Later that day between 5pm and 6pm is the battle of Armageddon.

Timtofly said:

No, the final half is Jesus sitting as King on a throne in Jerusalem.

The Messiah was cut off and the King part placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. If the 70th week was already completed, none of us would exist. We are the last of the fulness of the Gentiles. That was 1993 years ago. The Day of the Lord was only 1,000 years. It would have been over hundreds of years ago.

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Reference please for Jesus being king for 3½ years in the future?