The psychology behind sinless perfection theology

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
This is illogical. Nothing precludes him from believing in the soon coming of Jesus Christ.

So much is illogical or not relevant to you DJ could it be you simply don't understand. Perhaps it is you who are the problem.

I have always been of the frame of mind that it could be that I don't understand--this is made obvious when I post a "Huh?". However, in this case it was quite simple to understand. Your remark was illogical--ever think that you could have been wrong? After all, it wouldn't be the first time, right?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Only our corruptable, decaying body shall be changed. Nowhere it says our character will be changed.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence which suggests more than our physical body will be transformed at the Second Coming?

Funny, I thought that Adventists still rejected body-soul dualism. Has the church already changed so much?

If that were the case, a person can simply lives his old life without giving all to Christ. That is a lip-service christian.

There is a difference between having a changed life and achieving sinless perfection. Do I really have to explain it?

 

[NightEternal]

The word for "body" in Philippians is the greek "soma", number 4983 Strong's.

From the references I've seen, all usage of the word "soma" refers to the physical. Most notably, this passage:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

It is significant here that "soma" is used for physical body, in distinct contrast to the "soul" of the body, which is not destroyed in our first death.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence which suggests more than our physical body will be transformed at the Second Coming?

Jon

Sorry, that proves nothing. 'Body' can be used interchangeably in the Greek to also include the nature, character and mind as well. All of these things compose the entire being or body of a living soul. The word glorified in the Greek also denotes a complete change that goes way beyond just the physical-we recieve a spiritual body that reflects the sinless pre-fall state. It is an entire overhaul that is needed to restore us back to pre-fall Adam:

But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body; So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." (1 Cor. 15:12-58)

Imperishable: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable" (1 Cor. 15:42).
Glorified: "...it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory" (1 Cor. 15:43a).
Powerful: "...it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power" (1 Cor. 15:43b).
Spiritual: "...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:44)

A body that is sown in dishonor is in a hopeless state. Sin corrupted everything about us as a result of Adam. That includes the whole package, not just the physical.

When Paul speaks of "the flesh" or "flesh and blood", he is usually referring to the the fallen sinful nature as well. Similarly, when he uses the word "spiritual" (especially when contrasting with "the flesh"), he is usually referring to the spiritual nature - that which is provided by the Spirit of God and can only be transformed into by God Himself.

No one has yet explained the purpose of God limiting Himself to changing only the physical upon glorification. There is no point to it, except to propagate the dogma of the sinless perfection agenda.

Admit it: It's all EGW. You have no Scriptural leg to stand on. No other Evangelical Protestant denomination that I know of has ever heard about such preposterous understanding of glorification, much less understood it that way. Most would look at you in complete horror if you tried to proffer upon them such a premise.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I just don't get this line of argument. We have thousands of years of people dying, good Christian people but they did not have perfect sinless characters. Did you ever read what David said to Joab on his deathbed? If their sinful characters are not changed then heaven isn't going to be nearly as nice as we expect or extremely sparsely populated.

It is why these sinless perfection people have nothing to stand upon they have no logic, no scripture and ultimately nothing but a perverse view of what they may someday be like.

 

[NightEternal]

Amen.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Ok I guess I have to answer this for the logic impaired. Here is what Tela said:

But the people who will live to see Jesus come will be living in very different circumstances than we are living in now. Paul said, "you have not yet shed blood in resisting sin," and he was surely talking to me. I have a nice car, a nice home, a nice job, a nice wife, I have my hobbies and pursuits and entertain myself quite comfortably. I have never observed people becoming perfect who were too comfortable. But as I understand end-times events, I am told that every earthly support and comfort will be taken from me- that is, if I resist the mark of the beast, whatever that is, I will have to forfeit everything. that will be the most sobering experience of my existence.

I don't have time in this sitting to look up Bible texts for this, but as I understand it, Biblical perfection comes through suffering. "Jesus learned obedience through what He suffered" comes to mind. I'm not advocating an ascetic lifestyle, because that would only be another works trip. But if I am faced with the choice of abandoning my loyalty to God, or giving up all my earthly possessions and either hiding in the hills or being thrown in a "loathsome dungeon," and I choose the hard way rather than give up my faith, I don't view that as a works trip. I view it as being like Daniel, or Jesus, for that matter. It would be more an honor than a sacrifice- but it would hurt.

Now do you see how living in the world of today he has excluded the possibility of imminent return. I did not say soon I said Imminent soon, maybe that is the problem soon carries the Biblical idea which can be thousands of years. As in "behold I come soon" imminent carries the idea that it could be any time as in "be prepared for you know not the hour". But if I work under the assumption that He can't come until I live in persecution then imminent is gone. At least for most people it is gone. Conspiracy theorists probably think that all their rights will be taken away tomorrow but not the more level headed folk.

 

[NightEternal]

Grace is the eternal and free favor of God, manifested towards the guilty and the unworthy. Grace is entirely apart from every supposition of human worth and sinless perfection. Grace belongs where human sinfulness exists. It super-abounds over human unworthiness as experienced by the saints even after the close of probation. Sinners are the only persons with whom saving grace is concerned. Let us distinguish between grace as an attribute of Christ and grace as a method of salvation made possible by the sacrifice of Christ.
The limited and imperfect spiritual condition of the saints described by Mrs. White, requires the application of the atoning merits of our Lord and the availability of Christ's righteousness. The state of the saints is described as weakness, insufficiency, and unworthiness. The corruption of the sinful nature is manifest in the saints while in this mortal body. Consequently, during the time of Jacob's trouble, fear and trembling, weakness and unworthiness reflect their own insufficiency and sinful state. Yet the eternal God is their refuge. Every moment they live by and are saved by God's marvelous grace. There is no evidence anywhere in Scripture or in the Spirit of Prophecy that indicates the slightest change in salvation by grace ministered daily to the saints.
Even after Christ's work of intercession ceases and all cases have been decided God is not one step removed from us. Rather is He closer than He has ever been. If God's righteousness in Christ is available, then so is His saving grace. The implication that Christ is somehow, by the cessation of His mediatorial ministry, standing in a different relation to His people, is false. Those who think otherwise fail to grasp the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace beyond the close of probation. Paul gave it to us in 2 Corinthians 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." What Paul experienced is no different for us today or any time prior to the coming of Christ.
Lurking uncomfortably near, beneath the false teaching on sinless perfection, is, that somehow this saving grace is not needed, that one must really have sinless perfection to be sure. This has always been the problem for those who will not settle for the acknowledgement of their actual sinful state. With the close of probation, suddenly we see our own strength turned around, converted into weakness as Mrs. White describes it, in order that we may no longer live as a law unto ourselves, but that there is a people who live by Christ alone. The experience of the saints after probation closes reveals conclusively that being saved is being shaken loose from the folly of implanting our ego firmly in the center. In spite of their claims to the contrary, the supporters of the sinless perfection doctrine clutch at it so that their weakness and unworthiness may end in power prior to the coming of Christ.
Salvation by grace is not a cure at all. The work of grace is not some magic charm. The apostle Paul learned that. It is not something that, with the close of probation, will guarantee that we will never have another spiritual problem. This is evident from Mrs. White's description of the state of the saints. Saving grace summons the saints to acknowledge their sinful state until the coming of Christ. Christ is saying to us, there is no way out, except to learn that His grace is sufficient in the midst of our weakness and sinful state.
What is sure about our finality after probation closes is not that our lives are now magically transformed into sinlessness above the strife and agony in the world and the attacks on the enemy. What does come through is that deliverance is made complete in our weakness. His grace does not spring us free from the weakness of our sinful state. Faith brings God's assurance and saving power in our weakness. But it is His strength and power, not our own. One cannot have it both ways. If a man is sinless then he is no longer under grace. If he is under grace, then it is because he is not yet sinless.

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/perfection%20Heppenstall.htm

 

[moicherie]

The word for "body" in Philippians is the greek "soma", number 4983 Strong's.




From the references I've seen, all usage of the word "soma" refers to the physical. Most notably, this passage:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

It is significant here that "soma" is used for physical body, in distinct contrast to the "soul" of the body, which is not destroyed in our first death.


Do you have any Scriptural evidence which suggests more than our physical body will be transformed at the Second Coming?



Jon

Your sinful nature will be transformed, your desire to sin will be gone, right now the inclination to sin is ever with you hence humanity are sinners, the only way we overcome temptation in this life is via Jesus in the next life there will be no inclination to get over due to the transformtion.

 

[djconklin]

the only way we overcome temptation in this life is via Jesus

Amen!

 

[Telaquapacky]

Ok I guess I have to answer this for the logic impaired. Here is what Tela said:


Now do you see how living in the world of today he has excluded the possibility of imminent return. I did not say soon I said Imminent soon, maybe that is the problem soon carries the Biblical idea which can be thousands of years. As in "behold I come soon" imminent carries the idea that it could be any time as in "be prepared for you know not the hour". But if I work under the assumption that He can't come until I live in persecution then imminent is gone. At least for most people it is gone. Conspiracy theorists probably think that all their rights will be taken away tomorrow but not the more level headed folk.

RC, you have a point. I have been an Adventist for 27 years, and since learning our eschatology I have never experienced one day in which I thought Jesus could come tomorrow. It's always been, "x, y or z has to happen first." Adventist eschatology doesn't let people under our present circumstances believe Jesus could come tomorrow- a few years maybe, but not tomorrow (unless I have Adventist teaching all wrong- in which case, someone correct me please).

But His return is as near to any one of us as our own death- and that could happen at any moment.

I think the questions we should ask while we have my heresy in the microscope are- one, does my theory overwrite God's grace? and two, why the different character development requirement for a person who goes to sleep in Christ, compared to a person who lives to see Him come in the clouds? I'd like to hear someone else discuss that stuff a bit before I answer.

But the point you made earlier about saints going to the stake willingly in the Middle Ages proves God's point sufficiently so that it is not necessary for saints to go through the same thing now, is not airtight, because nothing is proven until it is repeatable. If Galileo dropped the weights from the tower of Pisa and one time they landed simultaneously, but if the next time he dropped them, the heavier one fell faster, we might still be working out the Law of Gravity- it's because it happened the same way every time that it constituted a proof.

Thank you RC for your input!

 

[OntheDL]

RC, you have a point. I have been an Adventist for 27 years, and since learning our eschatology I have never experienced one day in which I thought Jesus could come tomorrow. It's always been, "x, y or z has to happen first." Adventist eschatology doesn't let people under our present circumstances believe Jesus could come tomorrow- a few years maybe, but not tomorrow (unless I have Adventist teaching all wrong- in which case, someone correct me please).

But His return is as near to any one of us as our own death- and that could happen at any moment.

I think the questions we should ask while we have my heresy in the microscope are- one, does my theory overwrite God's grace? and two, why the different character development requirement for a person who goes to sleep in Christ, compared to a person who lives to see Him come in the clouds? I'd like to hear someone else discuss that stuff a bit before I answer.

But the point you made earlier about saints going to the stake willingly in the Middle Ages proves God's point sufficiently so that it is not necessary for saints to go through the same thing now, is not airtight, because nothing is proven until it is repeatable. If Galileo dropped the weights from the tower of Pisa and one time they landed simultaneously, but if the next time he dropped them, the heavier one fell faster, we might still be working out the Law of Gravity- it's because it happened the same way every time that it constituted a proof.

Thank you RC for your input!

Garrick,

I guess coming from a baptist/pentecostal background, I can address some of this. I remember in the few sunday schools I did attend, the pastors and folks always talk about expecting to hear a shout and a trumpet in the middle of the night, then they will be snatched up in the rapture.

It's true Adventist doctrines teach that the conditions have be met for Christ to return. The bible tells us Christ will return when:
1. the gospel is preached to the all the world.
2. the church is consecreted, bride made pure to meet her groom.

Are both of these conditions really met, Garrick? No.

I used to drive long distance for business trips. I remember in those dark nights driving back from Virginia... I live in the NYC metro area... When you enter Maryland, you see a sign or two saying NYC 200 miles, then you cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge, more signs: NYC 120miles. When you get closer in the 'home stretch, the signs are all over: NYC 50miles, NYC 40miles, NYC 30miles... NYC next exit.

God does not arbitarily choose a day and gives us no signs. It's for our benefit that road map and landmarks are clearly marked out.

Yet knowing the conditions are not met does not mean slack time for you and me.

When was the fate of the wicked sealed? When the flood came or 7 days before???

This is why our doctrine on the Investigative Judgment proclaimed in the First Angels' message tells us your case could be heard today in the heavenly court. Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart. Because tomorrow could be too late if your case had been decided in heaven.

That message has been proclaimed in 1840s. It's when the 3rd angel's message is proclaimed (along with the first 2) empowered by the latter rain, then the end shall come.

The problem is Adventist people today don't even understand the First Angel's message, let alone preaching the Three Angels Message to the world!!!!!

 

[freeindeed2]

When was the fate of the wicked sealed? When the flood came or 7 days before???

It was sealed when God told Noah he was going to destroy the earth and to build a boat.

 

[OntheDL]

It was sealed when God told Noah he was going to destroy the earth and to build a boat.

No. When the ramp to the Ark was closed 7 days before the first rain drop.

Had Noah and His family not gone into the Ark after God told them what would happen, they too would have been lost in the flood.

 

[StormyOne]

No. When the ramp to the Ark was closed 7 days before the first rain drop.

Had Noah and His family not gone into the Ark after God told them what would happen, they too would have been lost in the flood.

read the story as its written, not what we have been taught to believe... the ark was built only for Noah and his family and the animals... God never told him to build it to save anyone else... so Free is correct, the moment Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord... the fate of the wicked was sealed...

 

[freeindeed2]

No. When the ramp to the Ark was closed 7 days before the first rain drop.

Had Noah and His family not gone into the Ark after God told them what would happen, they too would have been lost in the flood.

No. It was sealed when God said he was going to destroy the earth. Who could turn back the words of God?! The ark wasn't intended to save anyone but Noah and his family and the animals.

 

[StormyOne]

No. It was sealed when God said he was going to destroy the earth. The ark wasn't intended to save anyone but Noah and his family and the animals.

folks are still laboring under the illusion that Noah preached for 120 yrs and that people rejected the message... the fact that this version of that story persists is a testament to how well preachers can fool us....

 

[moicherie]

folks are still laboring under the illusion that Noah preached for 120 yrs and that people rejected the message... the fact that this version of that story persists is a testament to how well preachers can fool us....

And how well we either

fill in the gaps with tradition

or read and don't see

or both

 

[Sophia7]

folks are still laboring under the illusion that Noah preached for 120 yrs and that people rejected the message... the fact that this version of that story persists is a testament to how well preachers can fool us....

And how well we either

fill in the gaps with tradition

or read and don't see

or both

And it's not just ordinary tradition but tradition that was endorsed by EGW.

 

[StormyOne]

And how well we either

fill in the gaps with tradition

or read and don't see

or both

true.... very true... you and Sophia make valid points....

 

[OntheDL]

read the story as its written, not what we have been taught to believe... the ark was built only for Noah and his family and the animals... God never told him to build it to save anyone else... so Free is correct, the moment Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord... the fate of the wicked was sealed...

God NEVER predestines anyone to destruction. It's by their own choice to accept or reject. That choice is not taken away until the last possible moments. Because God is merciful!

Read the whole Bible to see when God has carried out His judgment in haste without repeatedly warning them.

Noah 'a preacher of righteousness' would have preached to those whose fates had been sealed???

Methuselah, the son of Enoch, means literally 'when (he) dies, it will come'. What came? The flood. Methuselah died at the age of 969. That means for at least almost a thousand years, the warning about the flood was given.