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The Prophesies of Amos

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Amos 4:1-11 Listen to this Word from the Lord, you sleek and satisfied people, 1 you who oppress the downtrodden, as you revel in your modern lifestyle. The Lord God had sworn by His holiness, that your time is coming and disaster will fall upon you. 5

    In times past, I brought famine to the Land, yet you did not come back to Me. 2

    I withheld the rain, yet you did not come back to Me

    I struck your crops with the black and red blight, yet you did not come back to Me. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you did not come back to Me.

    I sent the plagues of Egypt among you, yet you did not come back to Me.

    With the sword, I slew your young men, yet you did not come back to Me.

    I brought destruction like that of Sodom and to some of you, it was as you were a brand snatched from the fire, 6 yet you did not come back to Me.

    Amos 5:14-15 Seek good, not evil, that you may live and the Lord God may be with you, as you claim He is. 3 Establish justice and practice righteousness and it may be that the Lord will show favor to the survivors of His people. 4


    Amos 5:16-20 The Lord says: In the cities and in the country there will be mourning, for I will pass through your midst on the great and terrible Day of the Lord. 5
    It will be a Day of darkness and terror, with no escape for anyone
    .

    Amos 4:12-13 Therefore, Israel, this is what I will do to you: Israel: Prepare to meet your God, 4 the Creator of all things. It is He who will darken the dawn with thick clouds and He will trample the nations with His rod of iron. The Lord, His Name is Y’hovah, makes known His plans to those who seek the truth in faith and sincerity. 7
    Ref: REB. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.

    1/ Our modern society, mostly without a thought for their Creator. 2 Timothy 4:3

    2/ Ancient Israel ignored their warnings, they were sent into exile. Hosea 5:4

    3/ Now; the Lord’s people, from every tribe, race, nation and language; all Christian peoples claim that God is with them, but some do not wholeheartedly obey His commandments. Isaiah 58:1-8

    4/ Ezekiel 20:30-36, describes how the Lord will ‘state His case’ against His people. They will ‘meet their God’, in the wilderness, then enter the Land.

    5/ The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible as a sudden and shocking judgement by fire, a CME explosion of the sun, that will be the ‘disaster that will fall upon them’, and upon the whole world. Isaiah 30:26-28

    6/ The Lord’s people are warned to take cover and will be protected on that Day, like ‘brands snatched from the fire’. Isaiah 26:20-21, Isaiah 43:2, Acts 2:21

    7/ The Prophetic Word does tell us all we need to know of God’s plans for our future. But if people choose to believe false theories and doctrines, the Lord will make the Words ‘like a sealed book’. Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Thess. 2:11
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  2. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner. But My salvation shall be for ever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.

    2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.c 9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Amos 8:11-14 The Lord says: The time is coming when there will be a famine on the Land, not of hunger, but for hearing the Word of God. People will search for the truth, but will not find it. All who swear by false gods will fall, to rise no more.

    Amos 9:1-6 I saw the Lord standing by the altar – He said: break down the buildings onto the heads of the people and any who are left, I shall put to the sword. Wherever they hide, I will find them and destroy them. At the Touch of the Lord, the earth heaves, all who live there mourn. He is the One who created the heavens and the earth.
    This is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath.

    Amos 9:7-12 Are not you Israelites like the Cushites to Me? I brought you up from Egypt. My eyes are on this sinful nation and I will judge them. Yet, I will not completely destroy Jacob’s posterity. I shall give the command to sieve Israel among the nations, without one pebble falling to the ground. All the sinners among My people will die. On that Day, I shall restore David’s fallen house and rebuild it as it was long ago, so that Israel may possess what is left of Edom and all those nations who were once named as Mine.
    All of Jacob’s posterity, those that are judged righteous, will possess all of the Promised Land.

    Amos 9:13-15 A time is coming when the Land will prosper and be fruitful. I shall bring back My exiled people, they will restore their towns and vineyards. They will enjoy the produce of the Land. Once more, I shall plant My people in their own soil, never again to be removed from the Land that I have given them. REB [abridged]


    The sequence of events is clear – firstly a lack of good Bible teaching and preaching. Those who search for the truth, will not find it, unless their heart is right with God. Then, in Amos 9:1-8, describes the Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, when disaster will fall onto all the world, but particularly the area of the Middle East. The Jewish people too, will be judged. Jeremiah 12:14-17.

    But the descendants of Jacob, that is all 12 tribes of Israel are still known to God. He will gather and judge them. Ezekiel 20:34-36, Isaiah 1:25, Deuteronomy 32:36.
    They will be joined by all the faithful Christians who are grafted in by righteousness.

    V. 11-12 Then, “On that day, I will restore David’s fallen house”. The Temple will be rebuilt, Zechariah 6:15 then later: at the Return of Jesus, He will fulfil God’s promise to David, that His royal line will continue forever. “so that Israel may possess what is left of Edom”, also the lands of other nations, depopulated by His Day of wrath..

    This enables the Lord’s Christian people to be a ‘light to the nations’ and preach the good news of the coming Kingdom. It also fulfils God’s promises to the Patriarchs, that their posterity will live in peace and prosperity in ALL the Land that was given to them.

    the Lord will bestow on His people all those amazing blessings as promised throughout the Bible. There will be times of difficulty, and testing; as when the Anti Christ stops the offerings in the New Temple, but those who hold firm to their faith in God, will see Jesus Return in His Glory and will reign with Him.
     
  4. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Again, ignoring context. Again, forcing an Old Testament prophet to talk about things he has NO BUSINESS talking about!

    WHO DO YOU EVEN THINK AMOS WAS? When was he? Who did he write to? In what language? Where did he live? What was the overall message of his book? What were his audience like? How would they have received his book? How did they understand the terms he used?



    Seriously, that Day of the Lord CAME AND WENT!
    It was the Assyrians.
    No CME. No tick-tock for your end-times-table. Assyria.

    In the OT the "Day of Lord" is mostly predicting local, historical judgements and rarely discusses a distant, unrelated future 2500 years later! Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College.

    While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
    The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition

    The one eternal bit here is right near the end in Chapter 9, where we have God's people restored to 'the land' in terms even better than the Garden of Eden. This is heaven.

    Amos 9:15
    9:15 I will plant them. The Lord promises lasting safety for His people. God’s covenant with David had promised an eternal kingship (v. 11; 2 Sam. 7:10). David’s greater Son, Jesus Christ, will guarantee redeemed Israel’s permanent blessedness.

    the land that I have given them. See note Gen. 13:15. The phrasing harks back to God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendants (Gen. 12:1, 7; 13:14–17; 15:18; 17:8). The physical Promised Land is but a type of the New Israel’s life in Christ; it points forward to the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 11:13–16; 12:22–24). The covenant land promise finds final fulfillment in the new heavens and the new earth (Rev. 21:1–22:6).
    Amos 9:15 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway


    Seriously, Keras, it's already mid 2021. What are you going to do in 5 years when there is no Temple, and no AOD in the temple?
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Amos 5:8-9 He that made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns deep darkness into dawn and darkens day into night. He who summons the waters of the sea and pours them over the earth: Y’hovah is His Name. He makes destruction flash forth upon strongholds.

    Amos 5:16-20 Calamity and misfortune will come to those who long for the Day of the Lord. What will that Day mean for you? It will be a Day of darkness, not light, it will be as when someone runs from a lion only to be confronted by a bear! Or to be bitten by a snake in one’s own house! The Day of the Lord will indeed be pitch black, without any ray of light.

    Amos 8:7-10 The Lord has sworn by the arrogance of Jacob, I shall not forget their sin and apostasy. Will not the land quake because of this? Will not all who live in it mourn? The whole earth will surge and seeth like the Nile, then subside like the river of Egypt. On that Day, I will darken the world at noon time, all will mourn and lament on that bitter Day. Ref: REB, CJB.


    Plainly, obviously and indisputably, this Prophecy does NOT refer to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. It will be fulfilled by the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the next Prophesied event we can expect.



    those who long for the Day of the Lord’. ‘long for, or want’, may be better translated as: ‘bring on, or cause to happen’. This applies to the enemies of the Lord, as they strive to impose their political and religious agendas onto the world; their actions will ‘call forth His wrath’. Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, Ezekiel 7:14, Isaiah 24:1


    ‘Calamity and misfortune will come to them’. The Lord will ‘send fire’, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2 & 5 I shall send fire on Judah, fire to consume the palaces of Jerusalem. That is: the Jewish State of Israel.

    But note that in Amos 2:6-16, all Israel, the Western nations, will be punished and their military destroyed. ‘He makes destruction flash forth onto the strongholds’. All things military will be destroyed. Hosea 2:18, Isaiah 34:2

    A Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun will literally fulfil all the prophesies of this Day: Isaiah 30:25-28, Jeremiah 50:22-23, Hosea 2:18, Micah 5:10-11, Zephaniah 1:16, Jeremiah 50:27


    ‘The whole earth will surge and subside, like the Nile’. Massive, worldwide earthquakes will be caused by the microwave penetration of the earth’s crust by this CME. Isaiah 24:18-19, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Revelation 6:14


    ‘He pours the waters of the sea over the earth’, As the earth ‘reels and shakes’, and is ‘moved from its place’, Isaiah 13:13, the lakes and oceans will move violently from side to side, causing huge tsunamis, that will engulf and devastate all the low-lying areas worldwide. Amos 9:6, Nahum 1:8, Jeremiah 51:42


    The Day of the Lord, will be pitch black, at noontime’. Zephaniah 2:4 also mentions noon day as the time of this terrible event. However the first sign we will see will be a flash of bright light, Isaiah 30:26, Job 36:32, Psalms 18:14.

    Then the huge ejected mass of superheated hydrogen plasma will blot out the sun, as it races toward earth. Isaiah 50:3, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Joel 2:1-2

    It will strike the moon first, causing it to glow bright red from the thermoluminescent reaction with the lunar dust, which mainly consists of metallic oxides.


    ‘Jacob’s arrogant and apostate descendants’. They are the House of Judah – the Jewish people, and the House of Israel – the Western nations; they will all be judged and punished on that Day. Ezekiel 21:1-16, Zechariah 13:7-9, Hosea 7:10, Hosea 8:14, Isaiah 1:25, Luke 21:34-35, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
     
  6. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    If it's that plain and obvious, why are you mistaking it for ANY end times bit?
    You're reading Old Testament apocalyptic language of judgement literally when Amos was writing to his generation about the "Day of the Lord". All that language is the Hebrew hyperbole for guess who?

    The Assyrians!


    Just repeat your Sci-Fi reading of the Old Testament, and ignore that Jesus said HIS RETURN would be the sudden, devastating, world changing event that will come on us like the days of Noah and a thief in the night. Matthew 24

    Seriously, Keras, it's already mid 2021. What are you going to do in 5 years when there is no Temple, and no AOD in the temple?
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Because it refers to the Sixth Seal event.
    Yes: Amos did prophesy to the House of Israel and about 40 years later they were conquered by Assyria.
    But the quotes in #5 do not relate to that. You surely do need to apply 'apocalyptic and hyperbole' to make it anywhere near to that time.
    The Day of the Lord, is a time; an actual day, when the Lord Himself will take action. Not; as in the past, by using other peoples to achieve His purposes.
    I confidently expect to be living in the holy Land and worshipping in the new Temple. All as so carefully described by Ezekiel 40 to 48
    BEFORE Jesus Returns.
     
  8. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Prove that Amos had that in mind, and not the Assyrians. Prove it from Amos himself. Because I see him TELLING YOU and I mere laypeople (non-prophets) that it is actually about Israel then!

    1 The words of Amos, one of the shepherds of Tekoa—the vision he saw concerning Israel two years before the earthquake, when Uzziah was king of Judah and Jeroboam son of Jehoash was king of Israel.

    Then the rest of Chapter 1 is about surrounding nations.
    "3 This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Damascus, even for four, I will not relent."
    “For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not relent.
    For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not relent.
    “For three sins of Edom, even for four, I will not relent.
    “For three sins of Ammon, even for four, I will not relent."

    Now - you could try to apply them to nations today abut really these OT nations had their own unique rulers and attributes back then. Amos was talking to his generation about a judgment that was coming.

    Then Chapter 2 starts with Moab, then Judah, then Israel! It's the same formula of the judgement being applied back then - NO DIFFERENT!

    6 This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not relent."

    Now then, I will crush you
    as a cart crushes when loaded with grain.
    14 The swift will not escape,
    the strong will not muster their strength,
    and the warrior will not save his life.
    15 The archer will not stand his ground,
    the fleet-footed soldier will not get away,
    and the horseman will not save his life.
    16 Even the bravest warriors
    will flee naked on that day,”
    declares the Lord.

    Chapter 3.
    “You only have I chosen
    of all the families of the earth;
    therefore I will punish you
    for all your sins.”

    Let me ask you a question. Why was Israel trampled by Assyria and Babylon? Did God not love his people any more? Did he suddenly lose the strength to protect them? Was this just the random stuff of history - God busy somewhere else?

    Or was there a Covenant arrangement that they broke?
    Were there Covenant curses that God promised to apply to Israel if they broke his Covenant?
    Basically, what I'm asking is if you believe God was in control when Israel got over-run by the nations.

    IF SO - if you think God was still interested in his people - and was still the sovereign Lord able to DO something about protecting his people - why didn't he?

    Because he allowed Assyria to conquer them and sent AMOS and all the other prophets to warn about both God's conquering of his people, his exiling of his people, yet also his eventual rescue of his people through his son Jesus.

    One thing you'll need to learn how to do and that's prove what you're asserting. As the mathematics teachers used to say, "You have to show your working."

    Because the verses you quote do not stand out as about the last day.
    The address is to Amos' generation and about them, just as it was in the earlier chapters.

    Chapter 5
    Hear this word, Israel, this lament I take up concerning you:

    2 “Fallen is Virgin Israel,
    never to rise again,
    deserted in her own land,
    with no one to lift her up.”

    ...

    4 This is what the Lord says to Israel:

    “Seek me and live;
    5 do not seek Bethel,
    do not go to Gilgal,
    do not journey to Beersheba.​

    If it had been about Israel now, wouldn't it have read "Hear this word, descendants of Israel?"
    Or would not 4 & 5 have been about not seeking Russia, Japan or America?


    It's just what the vast majority of bible scholars and historians acknowledge. There is no change in writing from the way Amos addresses the surrounding nations through to how Amos addresses Israel herself.


    Assertion is not proof.

    Oh, really? You don't think that's blasphemous and spits in the face of what Jesus did on the cross? See, this is what happens when you rip stuff out of context! The reality is we don't need a temple, and Ezekiel was a vision of the perfect life as God's people, where temple merged with daily living out in the streets. It's paradise - not some actual temple on earth.

    Hebrews 8
    Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.​
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Amos 8:16-20 says it will be the Day of the Lord's Judgment/ punishment.
    Which we know is the yet to happen; Sixth Seal event. Revelation 6:12-17
    Hopefully that generation did take note of what Amos said, although there is no proof that they did. Mostly the ancient Israelites ignored and vilified them. Amos 7:12-13
    What did happen bears very little relation to what Amos prophesied.
    But it will fit our future, when the actual Day of the Lord's wrath by fire strikes the earth and resets our civilization.
    Of course God was in control. He motivated the Assyrians to do what He wanted, that is: to exile Israel from the Land for a decreed period, Ezekiel 4:4-6, so He could work with them and eventually the holy Land will be occupied by only His faithful peoples. Psalms 107:1-3, Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26
    The current inhabitants of the holy Land will be removed on the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18
    No, because we don't know the Mind of God. You may think its wrong, but God plainly states that He wants a new Temple and He requires offerings and sacrifices to be made in it. Ezekiel 20:40-41, Isaiah 56:1-8, Jeremiah 33:11 and in Daniel 9:27 the sacrifices are stopped by the Anti-Christ.
    The is plenty of proof that there is coming a literal one Day event that will change to world and commence all the prophesied things, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
    Inability to see and understand them, is due to people being fixated on theories and doctrines that are not Biblical. It is right that all and sundry should not know God's Plans for our future. Only a few will understand; Daniel 12:10
     
  10. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Assertion. Is. Not. Evidence.
    Also, Amos 8:16 doesn't exist. Neither does 17, 18, 19, 20.


    Except that John said his book was to his generation, the people he SHARED the TRIBULATION with, because the time was NEAR and SOON. It's the Romans. And in all this suffering, John gives them a glimpse of the hope of the Lord's judgment on their enemies at the end of Chapter 6.

    It's like an old time Southern Baptist sermon.

    "The haters are going to hate on you, but the Lord is coming!
    The tyrants might imprison you, but the Lord is coming!
    The world might tempt and try to seduce you, but the Lord is coming!"

    THAT'S Revelation.
    A SERMON.
    To John's generation - and for all generations of Christians across all time.

    Hopefully that generation did take note of what Amos said, although there is no proof that they did. Mostly the ancient Israelites ignored and vilified them. Amos 7:12-13


    You only say that with such arrogance because of your ignorance.
    You don't know.
    You haven't studied.
    You can't even read what Amos is writing because even when translated into English, it's almost like another language to you. The imagery of the heavens shaking or melting, or fire on the land, is a common image of the destruction God brings in the 'Day of the Lord' and it means great invasions, or great changes in God's course for his people.
    It's geopolitical. It's local. It's focussed, and imminent, and to us historical.
    Sometimes it's even spiritual.
    But MOST of the time it's NOT end times - most of the time - in the Old Testament.

    Hooray! You mean God meant his geopolitical, local, focussed and imminent prophesies actually were geopolitical, local, focussed - and happened? That they're history now? Great!

    Aaaaaaannnnnd now you've lost what we are talking about and are just plucking things out of context and making them say whatever you want them to say. Again.

    Methinks you've ignored most of the New Testament to say this.
    Jesus says HE is the temple, and will tear it down and build it up again in 3 days.
    (His death and resurrection.)
    Hebrews says we don't NEED a building, because Jesus is our temple.
    Basically the way the apostles and Jesus spoke of everything 'law' and 'temple' and 'sacrifice' make it clear that Jesus fulfils all those things so perfectly that there's simply no room for a literal Ezekiel temple. That was a vision of the perfection of Jesus acting as temple and sacrifice and living as the perfect Israel to fulfil the law perfectly.

    Historians think Hebrews 8 was written before 70AD - while the current second temple still existed. What does Hebrews 8 make of the temple and temple system?

    Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

    3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
    10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

    13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
    John 2
    18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

    19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

    20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    Or 1 Corinthians 3
    16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

    Or Ephesians 2

    19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    Or 2 Corinthians 6:
    16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
    “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
    and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Going back to the temple would be as much of an abomination as going back to circumcision, food laws, and sacrifice. It would spit on what Jesus has accomplish. It's gospel-denying man-made religion. It's an abomination! It's heresy! It's un-Christian! The temple sacrificial system pointed to Jesus - not to itself. Jesus fulfilled and did away with all that.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Sorry, must be more careful; Amos 5:16-20
    Verse 18 and 20, make it clear all that prophecy is about the Day of the Lord's wrath.
    Obviously Revelation was not for John's generation. What happened then, bears no relation to what Revelation 6:12 to the end; describe.

    I view the dismissal of the Prophesies of Revelation and elsewhere, of unfulfilled events; as an offence against the Prophets and ultimately: God.
    This stance is right for our current Church age.
    But the Bible clearly says there will be a new Temple in the future. People who deny this truth, are actually telling God that He isn't allowed to have a place for His people to worship Him.
    This sort of nasty accusation shows your extreme bias toward theories and doctrines that do not have proper Bible support and your lack of knowing what the Bible actually does say.
    James 4:11-12 ...your judgment of me, is an indictment on yourself.
     
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Day of Lord evolves through scripture and is fulfilled in ESCHATOLOGICAL TENSION in Jesus death and resurrection which rescues us (but not yet), judges God's enemies and all sin and rebellion (but not yet in reality), makes Jesus reign (but not yet realised on earth as he reigns from heaven through the church), brings in the kingdom for the kingdom of God is NEAR (the church, but not yet realised in full rule).

    The concept evolves as much as sacrifice when Jesus dies for us and DOES AWAY with the sacrificial systems. The Day of the Lord goes from being MOSTLY local historical events in the Old Testament to FULLY about the RETURN of Jesus on Judgement Day when he returns with his angels, deals with his enemies, saves his friends, and ushers in a new earth all on the one day.

    This mostly covers the Day of the Lord from Genesis through OT to a very quick description of THAT DAY in the New Testament.



    It's OBVIOUSLY FOR John's generation.

    John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
    1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
    2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
    3. "because the time is near."
    4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
    Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-

    • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
    • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
    • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
    • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
    • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
    • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.



    Of course! That's because many bible scholars today recognise that the structure of Revelation is not a line, it's a waltz. The end of Rev 6 is the end of the world. Period, full stop, that's it!

    I view that as well - dismissal of Revelation's key structures and metaphors and original audience mean you're basically dismissing what John wrote to HIS GENERATION and then just making up whatever Sci-Fi story you want!

    It clearly says such a thing would be a heresy.

    Listen mate - why do you even HAVE the New Testament? You want to read the Old Testament prophets WITHOUT reference to how the whole New Testament deals with the theme of the temple - go right ahead. You may as well cut out the New Testament and become a Jew for the way you're reading the prophets!

    What did JESUS and the Apostles say about the whole idea of temple?

    It's FULFILLED! It's DONE WITH! There is no need for the building, for it's in heaven in Jesus and IN US ON EARTH!



    Jesus says HE is the temple, and will tear it down and build it up again in 3 days.
    (His death and resurrection.)
    Hebrews says we don't NEED a building, because Jesus is our temple.
    Basically the way the apostles and Jesus spoke of everything 'law' and 'temple' and 'sacrifice' make it clear that Jesus fulfils all those things so perfectly that there's simply no room for a literal Ezekiel temple. That was a vision of the perfection of Jesus acting as temple and sacrifice and living as the perfect Israel to fulfil the law perfectly.

    Historians think Hebrews 8 was written before 70AD - while the current second temple still existed. What does Hebrews 8 make of the temple and temple system?

    Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

    3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
    10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

    13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
    John 2
    18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

    19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

    20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    Or 1 Corinthians 3
    16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

    Or Ephesians 2

    19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    Or 2 Corinthians 6:
    16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
    “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
    and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Going back to the temple would be as much of an abomination as going back to circumcision, food laws, and sacrifice. It would spit on what Jesus has accomplish. It's gospel-denying man-made religion. It's an abomination! It's heresy! It's un-Christian! The temple sacrificial system pointed to Jesus - not to itself. Jesus fulfilled and did away with all that.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Regarding the Day of the Lord, there is a wonderful part of it. And there is a terrifying part of it.

    And parts were historic and parts are end times and parts are millennial and parts are eternal. That's how I think the Day of the Lord, understanding of it, should be approached.

    ____________________________________________________________

    @eclipsenow makes a good point for the historic parts, the warnings by Amos of the forth coming Assyrian captivity. Supporting verses are ...

    Amos 5:25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

    26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

    27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

    _______________________________________________________________

    On the other hand, supporting the millennial and eternal parts of the Day of the Lord is implied in...

    Amos5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    ...so there was a notion that the Day of the Lord would be a time of bliss. Which them in that day were desiring. But it was not for them because they had gotten in to all of the false god(s) worship and were sacrificing their own children in its evilness.

    Nonetheless, there was concept of the Day of the Lord being a garden of eden, even better existence, coming. But because of their turning to other gods, that aspect of the Day of the Lord, was not for them. They would not experience it.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Supporting the Day of the Lord end times, also called the day of Christ in 2Thessalonians2:2, begins with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist, going into the temple (to be rebuilt), sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. It does not begin with a cataclysmic solar event as Keras is asserting. The sixth seal is the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Himself, (on behalf of them martyred during the great tribulation) the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, not a solar destruction event.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    The Day of the Lord at the end of the millennium, Peter in 2Peter3:10 informs that the earth and works therein will be burned up. In Revelation 20:11, the earth and the heaven fled away, and there no place found for them. So that appears to be when that part of 2Peter3:10 is fulfilled.

    There is another part of the same verse that indicates that the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. Which appears to coincide with what Paul spoke about the beginning of the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thesslaonians2:4 with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

    So what it all boils down to is some of the statements and prophecies even within the individual verses themselves are complex in nature - when it comes to the Day of the Lord.

    Day of Lord

    historic
    end times
    millennial
    eternal
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  14. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Judgement Day / the Day of the Lord / the Return of Jesus / thief in the night could happen in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know. The AOD was possibly Jesus death on the cross (Boltian theology) or the Romans trashing THAT temple that the disciples were actually asking about THEN - not some future hypothetical third temple.

    ALSO there are only 2 ages, not a third in-between "Millennium" age.
    There is only "this age" and "The age to come" not some in-between state. The age to come is eternal, has no marriage, etc.

    Mt 12:32;

    32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Lk 18:30;
    30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

    Luke: 20:34-35;
    34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

    Eph 1:21
    21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    We do have the parable of the fig tree generation to know the end times events are close at hand.

    And the description of the time of the end in Daniel 12:4 of many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased, fits our generation.

    Plus, the other nations, in addition to Israel, that will join in as part of Gog's army in Ezekiel 38, appear to be in place.

    The end time AoD, spoken of in Daniel 12:11-12, was prefigured when Antiochus placed a statue of Zeus in the temple (Daniel 11:31).
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There has to be a period of time during which Zechariah 14:9-19 is in effect.... after Jesus returns to split the Mt of Olives in half. And on this present earth.

    Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron during that time - the millennium.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  17. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Really? I see it as PROOF that the AOD was Rome destroying the temple the disciples were standing there gawking at and asking about. "These things" (temple around them) as different to "That day" (the end of the world - the second question the disciples tacked on to the news that the temple would die.)

    Matthew 24:32-35
    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.



    Some verses of Zechariah do hint at the quality of the end - that the 'temple' will dissolve into the daily life of the people of God. Holy and secular mingle - there's a unity to temple life that's out in God's people. Isn't that what we read in the New Testament? We are the temple of God?

    Basically, MOST OT prophesies are about local historical things.
    Those that are not, give the Israelites at the time the flavour of Judgement Day in vivid imagery - but they know NOTHING compared to the detail we have in the New Testament. And now that Jesus died and rose again, we have the New Testament writings that completely fulfil and reinterpret everything we know from the old.

    The New interprets the Old, the Old gives background for the new. The New translates the Old. And I don't know how you can honestly just shrug off the NT verses I quoted above and run to your favourite OT verses. So I'll repeat them. DEAL WITH THEM!

    Judgement Day / the Day of the Lord / the Return of Jesus / thief in the night could happen in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know. The AOD was possibly Jesus death on the cross (Boltian theology) or the Romans trashing THAT temple that the disciples were actually asking about THEN - not some future hypothetical third temple.

    ALSO there are only 2 ages, not a third in-between "Millennium" age.
    There is only "this age" and "The age to come" not some in-between state. The age to come is eternal, has no marriage, etc.

    Mt 12:32;

    32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Lk 18:30;
    30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

    Luke: 20:34-35;
    34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

    Eph 1:21
    21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't think you addressed Zechariah 14:9-14 as proof of the millennium rule of Jesus, with a rod of iron, on this present earth.

    You just repeated the verses that you claim support your position.
     
  19. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Exactly! Which is what YOU just did with YOUR OT verse - but here's the thing.
    You didn't make my verses go away. They fulfil and reinterpret the OT, not the OT reinterpreting the New.
    Most people actually don't know how to read the OT in context - it's a lost art.

    You're just plucking absolutely visionary, metaphorical apocalyptic symbolism out of context and making it super-cede the CLEARER writings we have in the New Testament. That's exactly the wrong way around. To understand the bible, you start with the clearer and work back.

    These NT verses I quoted are called "Defeater" verses. They Defeat your argument. You have to ADDRESS them, reinterpret THEM, to make them go away and clear up the way for reaching into more obscure, metaphorical parts of the bible. If you can do that, I'm all ears. But you have to be good. You have to be convincing. And the LAST thing you're allowed to do is just ignore them. Why? Because Jesus and the Apostles don't let you.

    Otherwise, you may as well just chop the New Testament out of your bible and become a Jew.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I did not make the verses you quoted go away. You are just misapplying what was being said.

    The verses you quoted were not interpreting Zechariah 14:9-19. They did contain a message, but the message was not that there would be no millennial rule by Jesus with a rod of iron.

    The verses in Zechariah 14:9-19 are not metaphorical, but literal.

    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

    11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

    12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

    14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

    15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

    16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
     
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