The Prodigal Son Contradicts Predestination

ozso · Mar 22, 2023

Dale said:
I confess that I have never been able to understand predestination. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the most frequently quoted of the Parables of Christ, the most preached on, and one of the most studied. Since it takes up 21 verses in Luke 15, it is certainly one of the longest parables, perhaps a sign that it is worth some study to understand it. Some call it the crown jewel of the Parables.

Luke 15:17 starts off: “When he came to his senses …” Luke 15:20 follows this up: “So he got up and went to his father.”

The predestinationists tell us that no one knows anything about God, the afterlife or religion, until God calls them. God decides who will be His followers, His worshipers. Yet, Luke 15:17-20 tell us that it is the son who comes “to his senses” and makes the decision to return to his father.

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a
long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around
him and kissed him.
Luke 15:20 NIV

In the Parable, the father sees his son coming but it is the son who made the decision to return, and is received with great joy.
If the predestinationists had written the parable, the father would have sent someone to kidnap the son and drag him home. Then the son would have said, “Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stay.” This is completely different from the story that Christ gave us.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is perfectly consistent with free will, and free will in matters of salvation. It is not consistent with predestination.

I think Calvinism would say that the son was always the son, rather than choosing to be the son. And even though he tried to leave, he was compelled to return to his father. He had no other choice but to go back in order to survive. He made the choice to return not as a son, but as a hired hand. But his father ignored that choice and the son retained his position as a son. His father waiting for him means his father knew all along that his son would return.

FireDragon76 · Mar 22, 2023

This parable is really about the reversal of the place of the sons, the opposite of what the hearers of the parable would have expected. It is the disobedient son that receives his fathers love, whereas the obedient son becomes angry and leaves. It fits in with Jesus broader theme about making the blind see, but the seeing blind.

Aussie Pete · Mar 22, 2023

bling said:
Right, Christians can give away or sell their birthright to heaven for the perceived pleasures of sin.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).

Jesus would use the very best words to convey the meaning and Jesus did not say: “God brought him to his senses”, but Jesus did say “he came to his senses”. How did he do it if he was in a dead state or can you do this if you are in a dead state? We know the young man was in a dead state because:

Luke 15: 24 “For this son of mine was dead and is alive again…” and Luke 15:32 “…because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again;…”

The Father (representing God) does not say “We thought he was dead” or “was like dead”.

There is not a definition given for being “Spiritually dead” so we cannot say exactly what that means, but from this passage Jesus is teaching us a spiritually dead person can repent.

It is a lot more complex than just looking at it and giving one meaning to “spiritually dead”. In one since the young man does not have Godly type Love and Paul teaches us (1 Cor. 13) without this Godly type Love you can do nothing of value (it is worthless) so in that since what the young man did in even repenting was “worthless” of no value. The young man is actually being “motivated” by self seeking reasoning, but it does cause him to swallow his pride. The acceptance of the Father’s Love is really not “doing” something but more allowing something to be done to you.

In other words, the young son did not really “do” anything in his dead state, but did allow the father to do stuff for him. The Young man could have gone on in the pigsty trying on his own to recover (maintaining some pride), but that would be really trying to stay alive by doing something as compared to giving up (being a walking dead person).

Yes, we have heaven as our inheritance, a birthright not written on a piece of paper that can be lost, and a deed to a home in heaven.

Yet, Esau had an unwritten birthright, which could not be lost, stolen, and even Isaac could not take it back, but Esau could give it away. It was thus truly Esau’s, because he could do with it as he pleased.

God gave us a deed/birthright to a home in heaven and it is truly ours, so if we loss interest in heaven, fell our minds with worldly things and reach the point of not caring about being with God, we can give our birthright away. It is not someone over powering God or Christ snatching us away, but like a prodigal son, we can leave on our own, God/Christ are not holding as chained prisoners.

Your points are valid, of course. However, I do not believe that one who is born again can be "unborn again". There are two salvations spoken of in God's word. The first is instantaneous, eternal and costs nothing. The second is progressive, conditional and costs everything.

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

1 Corinthians 5 tells of a man committing gross sin. Not even unbelievers are comfortable with it. Yet that man remained a believer.
"When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord."

The prodigal suffered great loss. So does the Christian who backslides. Some Christians will have no reward because they never gave up their own self will. They never take up their cross and never deny themselves. This life is the only opportunity we get to prepare for eternity. "He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose".

Dale · Mar 22, 2023

MMXX said:
I think Calvinism would say that the son was always the son, rather than choosing to be the son. And even though he tried to leave, he was compelled to return to his father. He had no other choice but to go back in order to survive. He made the choice to return not as a son, but as a hired hand. But his father ignored that choice and the son retained his position as a son. His father waiting for him means his father knew all along that his son would return.

If that is what Calivinists believe, they are imposing an interpretation that isn’t in the original.

Dale · Mar 22, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
This parable is really about the reversal of the place of the sons, the opposite of what the hearers of the parable would have expected. It is the disobedient son that receives his fathers love, whereas the obedient son becomes angry and leaves. It fits in with Jesus broader theme about making the blind see, but the seeing blind.

The obedient son doesn’t leave. He is is just miffed, and hopefully this goes away, but we don’t know because the story ends there.

Dale · Mar 22, 2023

Freewill Offerings in the Books of the Law

Following up what I said about Freewill Offerings in post #11 …

Exodus tells us that the Ark and the Tabernacle were made using freewill offerings of money and other valuables, as opposed to food offerings.

All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.
--Exodus 35: 29 NIV

They received from Moses all the offerings the Israelites had brought to carry out the work of constructing the sanctuary. And the people continued to bring freewill offerings morning after morning.
Exodus 36:3 NIV

Leviticus gives directions on freewill offerings as a form of food offering.

“‘If, however, their offering is the result of a vow or is a freewill offering, the sacrifice shall be eaten on the day they offer it, but anything left over may be eaten on the next day.
Leviticus 7:16 NIV

“Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: ‘If any of you—whether an Israelite or a foreigner residing in Israel—presents a gift for a burnt offering to the Lord,
either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf.
Leviticus 22: 18-19 NIV

When anyone brings from the herd or flock a fellowship offering to the Lord to fulfill a special vow or as a freewill offering, it must be without defect or blemish to be acceptable. Do not offer to the Lord the blind, the injured or the maimed, or anything with warts or festering or running sores. Do not place any of these on the altar as a food offering presented to the Lord. You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow.
Leviticus 22: 21-23 NIV

These offerings are in addition to those for the Lord’s Sabbaths and in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the Lord.)
Leviticus 23: 38 NIV

Numbers continues to give directions for these offerings and says that they will continue in the Promised Land.

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘After you enter the land I am giving you as a home and you present to the Lord food offerings from the herd or the flock, as an aroma pleasing to the Lord—whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings— then the person who brings an offering shall present to the Lord a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of olive oil.
Numbers 15: 1-4 NIV

“‘In addition to what you vow and your freewill offerings, offer these to the Lord at your appointed festivals: your burnt offerings, grain offerings, drink offerings and fellowship offerings.’”
Numbers 29:35 NIV

Deuteronomy tells us that freewill offerings will be taken to "the place the Lord your God will choose," which is the Temple in Jerusalem.

But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go;there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.
Deuteronomy 12: 5-6 NIV

You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and olive oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.
Deuteronomy 12: 17 NIV

Then celebrate the Festival of Weeks to the Lord your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the Lord your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 16: 10 NIV

Dale · Mar 22, 2023

Freewill Offerings in Books of History, Psalms, and Prophets

Just as Freewill Offerings were used to make the Ark and the Tabernacle, they helped to rebuild the Temple at the time of Nehemiah and Ezra. We see this in Ezra 1:2-6, given below.

Chronicles makes it clear that many freewill offerings were received by the priests during this time period, even naming an official among the priests who was in charge of them.

Kore son of Imnah the Levite, keeper of the East Gate, was in charge of the freewill offerings given to God, distributing the contributions made to the Lord and also the consecrated gifts.
II Chronicles 31: 14 NIV

Freewill offerings played an important role in the rebuilding of the Temple at the time of Ezra.

“This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:

“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem, and may their God be with them in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.’”

Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. All their neighbors assisted them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with valuable gifts, in addition to all the freewill offerings.
Ezra 1: 2-6 NIV

When they arrived at the house of the Lord in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the families gave freewill offerings toward the rebuilding of the house of God on its site. According to their ability they gave to the treasury for this work 61,000 darics of gold, 5,000 minas of silver and 100 priestly garments.
Ezra 2: 68-69 NIV

After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the Lord, as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the Lord.
Ezra 3:5 NIV

I weighed out to them 650 talents of silver, silver articles weighing 100 talents, 100 talents of gold, 20 bowls of gold valued at 1,000 darics, and two fine articles of polished bronze, as precious as gold.

I said to them, “You as well as these articles are consecrated to the Lord. The silver and gold are a freewill offering to the Lord, the God of your ancestors. Guard them carefully until you weigh them out in the chambers of the house of the Lord in Jerusalem before the leading priests and the Levites and the family heads of Israel.” Then the priests and Levites received the silver and gold and sacred articles that had been weighed out to be taken to the house of our God in Jerusalem.
Ezra 8: 26-30 NIV

I will sacrifice a freewill offering to you;
I will praise your name, Lord, for it is good.
Psalms 54:6 NIV

The prophet Ezekiel sees freewill offerings as part of a restored Israel in the future.

“‘When the prince freewill offering to the Lord—whether a burnt offering or fellowship offerings—the gate facing east is to be opened for him.
Ezekiel 46:12 NIV

The prophet Amos warns people not to brag about freewill offerings.

Burn leavened bread as a thank offering
and brag about your freewill offerings—
boast about them, you Israelites,
for this is what you love to do,”
declares the Sovereign Lord.
Amos 4:5 NIV

ozso · Mar 22, 2023

Dale said:
If that is what Calivinists believe, they are imposing an interpretation that isn’t in the original.

I was just surmising.

bling · Mar 23, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
Your points are valid, of course. However, I do not believe that one who is born again can be "unborn again". There are two salvations spoken of in God's word. The first is instantaneous, eternal and costs nothing. The second is progressive, conditional and costs everything.

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

1 Corinthians 5 tells of a man committing gross sin. Not even unbelievers are comfortable with it. Yet that man remained a believer.
"When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord."

The prodigal suffered great loss. So does the Christian who backslides. Some Christians will have no reward because they never gave up their own self will. They never take up their cross and never deny themselves. This life is the only opportunity we get to prepare for eternity. "He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose".

I am glade you see the validity of my explanation. These verses plus many more "whoever" verses show man has free will and that free will always be needed to Love like God Loves.
I do not know how different sleeping with the father's wife is from other sins and how much that gentile person realized about that sin. Sinning is not directly the cause of you "losing eternal life", you have to reach the point where you hold no value for living eternally with God and only want to pursue carnal pleasures, resulting in you giving up your inheritance.
The gold, silver and precious stones are what we can take on to heaven, so they are other people since that is all that goes to heaven. The idea is: we do not choose the material (people) we study with here on earth, so some will never change or last through persecution here on earth. What are you see being the materials in Paul's analogy?

Carl Emerson · Mar 28, 2023

Dale said:
I confess that I have never been able to understand predestination. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the most frequently quoted of the Parables of Christ, the most preached on, and one of the most studied. Since it takes up 21 verses in Luke 15, it is certainly one of the longest parables, perhaps a sign that it is worth some study to understand it. Some call it the crown jewel of the Parables.

Luke 15:17 starts off: “When he came to his senses …” Luke 15:20 follows this up: “So he got up and went to his father.”

The predestinationists tell us that no one knows anything about God, the afterlife or religion, until God calls them. God decides who will be His followers, His worshipers. Yet, Luke 15:17-20 tell us that it is the son who comes “to his senses” and makes the decision to return to his father.

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a
long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around
him and kissed him.
Luke 15:20 NIV

In the Parable, the father sees his son coming but it is the son who made the decision to return, and is received with great joy.
If the predestinationists had written the parable, the father would have sent someone to kidnap the son and drag him home. Then the son would have said, “Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stay.” This is completely different from the story that Christ gave us.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is perfectly consistent with free will, and free will in matters of salvation. It is not consistent with predestination.

The prodigal son was never not a son...

Parallels to conversion are misplaced.

The returning son was a son.

I speak as a prodigal who was 11 years in rebellion and confusion.

He welcomed me back with open arms.

I had been born again and baptised 27 years earlier.

Dale · Mar 28, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The prodigal son was never not a son...

Parallels to conversion are misplaced.

The returning son was a son.

I speak as a prodigal who was 11 years in rebellion and confusion.

He welcomed me back with open arms.

I had been born again and baptised 27 years earlier.

In the New Testament, inheritance often refers to the afterlife of Christians in heaven.

How is the word “inheritance” used in other parables of Jesus?

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats we find:

“Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you
who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the
kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
-Matthew 25:34 NIV

At the end of Acts, Paul speaks to the Elders of Ephesus:

“Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace,
which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all
those who are sanctified.
-Acts 20:32 NIV

How is inheritance used in the Epistles?

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the
redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the
praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in
order that you may know the hope to which he has called
you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints …
-Ephesians 1:18 NIV

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy
person — such a man is an idolater — has any inheritance in
the kingdom of Christ and of God.
-Ephesians 5:5 NIV

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of
the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in
every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
being strengthened with all power according to his glorious
might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
and joyfully
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you [Some
manuscripts: us] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the
kingdom of light.
Colossians 1:10-12 NIV

Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working
for the Lord, not for men,
since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the
Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
Colossians 3:2324 NIV

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that
those who are called may receive the promised eternal
inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them
free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
--Hebrews 9:15 NIV

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In
his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--
kept in heaven for you …
I Peter 1:3-4

Over and over, the NT tells us that Christians have an inheritance in heaven. This is the inheritance that the Prodigal Son first squandered, then regained when he returned to his father.

Carl Emerson · Mar 29, 2023

Dale said:
In the New Testament, inheritance often refers to the afterlife of Christians in heaven.

How is the word “inheritance” used in other parables of Jesus?

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats we find:

“Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you
who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the
kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
-Matthew 25:34 NIV

At the end of Acts, Paul speaks to the Elders of Ephesus:

“Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace,
which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all
those who are sanctified.
-Acts 20:32 NIV

How is inheritance used in the Epistles?

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the
redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the
praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in
order that you may know the hope to which he has called
you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints …
-Ephesians 1:18 NIV

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy
person — such a man is an idolater — has any inheritance in
the kingdom of Christ and of God.
-Ephesians 5:5 NIV

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of
the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in
every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
being strengthened with all power according to his glorious
might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
and joyfully
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you [Some
manuscripts: us] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the
kingdom of light.
Colossians 1:10-12 NIV

Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working
for the Lord, not for men,
since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the
Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
Colossians 3:2324 NIV

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that
those who are called may receive the promised eternal
inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them
free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
--Hebrews 9:15 NIV

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In
his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--
kept in heaven for you …
I Peter 1:3-4

Over and over, the NT tells us that Christians have an inheritance in heaven. This is the inheritance that the Prodigal Son first squandered, then regained when he returned to his father.

Salvation and reward in Heaven are two different issues.

His status as a son did not change but his condition did.

Consider the young man Paul expelled from the church...

1 Cor 5:5

I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Dale · Mar 29, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Salvation and reward in Heaven are two different issues.

His status as a son did not change but his condition did.

Consider the young man Paul expelled from the church...

1 Cor 5:5

I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

How so?

Carl Emerson · Mar 29, 2023

Dale said:
How so?

The young man was unrepentant and in serious immorality, his life choices were not reward-worthy.

But Paul saw beyond this, being jealous for his eternal destination as a son - withdrew from him the sanctification that comes from fellowship in expelling him, in the hope that like the prodigal son he would see the contrast between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness and return in repentance which I understand he later did.

Dale · Mar 29, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The young man was unrepentant and in serious immorality, his life choices were not reward-worthy.

But Paul saw beyond this, being jealous for his eternal destination as a son - withdrew from him the sanctification that comes from fellowship in expelling him, in the hope that like the prodigal son he would see the contrast between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness and return in repentance which I understand he later did.

You seem to be saying that salvation and reward in heaven are two different things. I don't see how that could be so.

Carl Emerson · Mar 29, 2023

Dale said:
You seem to be saying that salvation and reward in heaven are two different things. I don't see how that could be so.

Salvation pertains to adoption.

Eternal reward relates to obedience.

Dale · Mar 30, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Salvation pertains to adoption.

Eternal reward relates to obedience.

I don't know any verse in the NT that refers to anyone as being saved but has no reward. To say that sets up two classes of salvation.

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2023

Dale said:
I don't know any verse in the NT that refers to anyone as being saved but has no reward. To say that sets up two classes of salvation.

Not really - Salvation and Sanctification are separate issues.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

Dale · Mar 31, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Not really - Salvation and Sanctification are separate issues.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

There is no way to completely separate salvation and sanctification. The word "saint" refers to sanctification and Paul several times refers to NT Christians as saints, not because they have earned that title by their accomplishments, but simply because they are followers of Jesus, members of a NT church.

Carl Emerson · Apr 1, 2023

Dale said:
There is no way to completely separate salvation and sanctification. The word "saint" refers to sanctification and Paul several times refers to NT Christians as saints, not because they have earned that title by their accomplishments, but simply because they are followers of Jesus, members of a NT church.

I don't completely separate the two.

If saints are defined as 'the saved' then their eternal destination is secure.

However the degree to which they choose to walk in righteousness determines their eternal reward.

Can you support your viewpoint from scripture please...

The Prodigal Son Contradicts Predestination

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