The Prodigal Son Contradicts Predestination

Dale

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I confess that I have never been able to understand predestination. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the most frequently quoted of the Parables of Christ, the most preached on, and one of the most studied. Since it takes up 21 verses in Luke 15, it is certainly one of the longest parables, perhaps a sign that it is worth some study to understand it. Some call it the crown jewel of the Parables.

Luke 15:17 starts off: “When he came to his senses …” Luke 15:20 follows this up: “So he got up and went to his father.”

The predestinationists tell us that no one knows anything about God, the afterlife or religion, until God calls them. God decides who will be His followers, His worshipers. Yet, Luke 15:17-20 tell us that it is the son who comes “to his senses” and makes the decision to return to his father.

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a
long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around
him and kissed him.

Luke 15:20 NIV

In the Parable, the father sees his son coming but it is the son who made the decision to return, and is received with great joy.
If the predestinationists had written the parable, the father would have sent someone to kidnap the son and drag him home. Then the son would have said, “Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stay.” This is completely different from the story that Christ gave us.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is perfectly consistent with free will, and free will in matters of salvation. It is not consistent with predestination.


 

Maria Billingsley

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I confess that I have never been able to understand predestination. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the most frequently quoted of the Parables of Christ, the most preached on, and one of the most studied. Since it takes up 21 verses in Luke 15, it is certainly one of the longest parables, perhaps a sign that it is worth some study to understand it. Some call it the crown jewel of the Parables.

Luke 15:17 starts off: “When he came to his senses …” Luke 15:20 follows this up: “So he got up and went to his father.”

The predestinationists tell us that no one knows anything about God, the afterlife or religion, until God calls them. God decides who will be His followers, His worshipers. Yet, Luke 15:17-20 tell us that it is the son who comes “to his senses” and makes the decision to return to his father.

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a
long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around
him and kissed him.

Luke 15:20 NIV

In the Parable, the father sees his son coming but it is the son who made the decision to return, and is received with great joy.
If the predestinationists had written the parable, the father would have sent someone to kidnap the son and drag him home. Then the son would have said, “Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stay.” This is completely different from the story that Christ gave us.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is perfectly consistent with free will, and free will in matters of salvation. It is not consistent with predestination.
Maybe post this in the "Ask a Calvinist " section.
Blessings
 
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Aussie Pete

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I confess that I have never been able to understand predestination. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the most frequently quoted of the Parables of Christ, the most preached on, and one of the most studied. Since it takes up 21 verses in Luke 15, it is certainly one of the longest parables, perhaps a sign that it is worth some study to understand it. Some call it the crown jewel of the Parables.

Luke 15:17 starts off: “When he came to his senses …” Luke 15:20 follows this up: “So he got up and went to his father.”

The predestinationists tell us that no one knows anything about God, the afterlife or religion, until God calls them. God decides who will be His followers, His worshipers. Yet, Luke 15:17-20 tell us that it is the son who comes “to his senses” and makes the decision to return to his father.

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a
long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around
him and kissed him.

Luke 15:20 NIV

In the Parable, the father sees his son coming but it is the son who made the decision to return, and is received with great joy.
If the predestinationists had written the parable, the father would have sent someone to kidnap the son and drag him home. Then the son would have said, “Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stay.” This is completely different from the story that Christ gave us.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is perfectly consistent with free will, and free will in matters of salvation. It is not consistent with predestination.
The parable of the Prodigal son has nothing to do with salvation. The son was an heir. Unbelievers have no inheritance in God. The real point of the parable is the father, who, like God, longs for his wayward son to return home. Many Christians backslide and turn away from their faith. Some, like the elder brother, despise those who backslide. God welcomes those who wake up to themselves and humbly seek to be reconciled.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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A verse regarding the life of the righteous, or wayward, that is troublesome for Calvinism is:

Job 36:5-12 "Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding. He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed. He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It clearly shows a choice resulting in either life or death, the choice is man's not God's. Note that this is the dialog of Elihu, not Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite who were rebuked by God. God did not say Elihu's words were wrong.
 
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Aussie Pete

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A verse regarding the life of the righteous, or wayward, that is troublesome for Calvinism is:

Job 36:5-12 "Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding. He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed. He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It clearly shows a choice resulting in either life or death, the choice is man's not God's. Note that this is the dialog of Elihu, not Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite who were rebuked by God. God did not say Elihu's words were wrong.
Both predestination and man's free will are correct. They appear to be contradictory, but both truths are clearly stated in God's word. The issue is not with God's word; rather our understanding. One day all will be clear. If people worried less about difficult doctrines and more about preaching the gospel, we'd be much better off.

The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that it is pointless to preach the gospel. The logical conclusion of unconditional free will is that salvation is entirely up to man. Neither is Biblical. We should preach and teach as if man is responsible and trust, praise and worship in the knowledge that God is supremely powerful and sovereign.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Both predestination and man's free will are correct. They appear to be contradictory, but both truths are clearly stated in God's word. The issue is not with God's word; rather our understanding. One day all will be clear. If people worried less about difficult doctrines and more about preaching the gospel, we'd be much better off.

The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that it is pointless to preach the gospel. The logical conclusion of unconditional free will is that salvation is entirely up to man. Neither is Biblical. We should preach and teach as if man is responsible and trust, praise and worship in the knowledge that God is supremely powerful and sovereign.
I disagree. Only one is true not both. It also makes a lot of difference to the way a person perceives the nature of God.


Justin Martyr one of the earliest Church Fathers was forced to confront the same issue. He made it clear in hIs writings that the church did not believe in fatalism or predestination.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 (A.D. 120-202) also shows that faith is a free will action, not forced under any compulsion.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually.

...

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

All the Earliest Church leaders believed in free will, that man not God determines his own destiny.

This free will is shown at the time of the flood.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Also scripture contradicts the idea that God only planned a small select group to be saved.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Jesus is our atonement (making-one), He enables us to be one with God. This is true for the whole world, Jesus sacrifice has enabled the whole world to be one with God.

Joh 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The sacrifice is universal, but not all men receive it.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
 
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IoanC

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Well, the devil has used his free will the wrong way. As such, he lost his freedom and is susceptible to God's eternal punishment. In conclusion, it doesn't look like God favours the idea of free will, but that of obedience to His will. The angels who remained in a blessed state obeyed God, while those who were punished invented free will.
 
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Dale

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The parable of the Prodigal son has nothing to do with salvation. The son was an heir. Unbelievers have no inheritance in God. The real point of the parable is the father, who, like God, longs for his wayward son to return home. Many Christians backslide and turn away from their faith. Some, like the elder brother, despise those who backslide. God welcomes those who wake up to themselves and humbly seek to be reconciled.

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that the story of the Prodigal Son isn’t connected to salvation.

From notes in the Disciples Study Bible:

[Luke] 15:11-32 Salvation, Initiative-- Unsaved persons are lost, as lost as was the Prodigal Son. God is the loving Father, who like the father of the prodigal son, yearns for all lost prodigals to be saved. Saved persons should want to see losts persons saved as much as God does.
 
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Dale

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Years ago I did a thread on Freewill Offerings, knowing that many of the people I meet on CF are predestinationists. Freewill offerings are part of the Old Testament sacrificial system. They are mentioned in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, II Chronicles, Ezra, Psalms, Ezekiel and Amos, nine books of the Old Testament. They are mentioned twenty-two times in nineteen passages.

A Freewill Offering can be an animal or it can be an offering of money. The Tabernacle was made with Freewill Offerings and it is likely that they contributed to the building of Solomon’s Temple.

I thought that was a significant point. There is no such thing as a “predestination offering.”
The predestinationists shrugged and said that my point about Freewill Offerings was irrelevant. But then, that’s what they always say.
 
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bling

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The parable of the Prodigal son has nothing to do with salvation. The son was an heir. Unbelievers have no inheritance in God. The real point of the parable is the father, who, like God, longs for his wayward son to return home. Many Christians backslide and turn away from their faith. Some, like the elder brother, despise those who backslide. God welcomes those who wake up to themselves and humbly seek to be reconciled.
Jesus has the father twice discribe the young son as being death, so how does a saved person become a living dead person?
 
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Aussie Pete

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I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that the story of the Prodigal Son isn’t connected to salvation.

From notes in the Disciples Study Bible:

[Luke] 15:11-32 Salvation, Initiative-- Unsaved persons are lost, as lost as was the Prodigal Son. God is the loving Father, who like the father of the prodigal son, yearns for all lost prodigals to be saved. Saved persons should want to see losts persons saved as much as God does.
The prodigal was in relationship with the father. The lost are not. They have no inheritance to squander. I'm as keen to see people saved as anyone. I do not believe that the parable of the prodigal son has to do with the salvation of fallen man.
 
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"I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you." Revelation 3:1-3

Addressed to believers.
 
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bling

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"I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you." Revelation 3:1-3

Addressed to believers.
We need to complete the paragraph you quote:

4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

There are Christians in Sardis whose names will not be bloted out of the book of life, but what about the rest of the Christians there and does that not mean they are lost?
 
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Dale

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The prodigal was in relationship with the father. The lost are not. They have no inheritance to squander. I'm as keen to see people saved as anyone. I do not believe that the parable of the prodigal son has to do with the salvation of fallen man.

Pete, you say “was in relationship with the father.” Is he still “in relationship” when he leaves?

Virtually all of the Parables of Jesus talk about salvation, although some also tell us about the afterlife, the Second Coming and the final judgment. Since almost all of the Parables tell us about how salvation begins, what it leads to or what happens if you don’t have it, why should we expect the Prodigal Son to be different?

The Prodigal Son goes to “a distant country” in Luke 15:13 and a couple of verses later he hires “himself out to a citizen of that country.” We are reminded that the son has crossed a boundary line, that he is not a native, not a citizen, of the country where he chosen to live. All this suggests that he has left the land of the saved and voluntarily entered the land of the lost.

In verse 24, the father says that his son was “lost” and “dead,” and again in verse 32, the father says again that the son was both “lost” and “dead.” When someone is dead, it takes a Divine miracle to restore them to life, otherwise, they stay dead. It is about salvation.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Pete, you say “was in relationship with the father.” Is he still “in relationship” when he leaves?

Virtually all of the Parables of Jesus talk about salvation, although some also tell us about the afterlife, the Second Coming and the final judgment. Since almost all of the Parables tell us about how salvation begins, what it leads to or what happens if you don’t have it, why should we expect the Prodigal Son to be different?

The Prodigal Son goes to “a distant country” in Luke 15:13 and a couple of verses later he hires “himself out to a citizen of that country.” We are reminded that the son has crossed a boundary line, that he is not a native, not a citizen, of the country where he chosen to live. All this suggests that he has left the land of the saved and voluntarily entered the land of the lost.

In verse 24, the father says that his son was “lost” and “dead,” and again in verse 32, the father says again that the son was both “lost” and “dead.” When someone is dead, it takes a Divine miracle to restore them to life, otherwise, they stay dead. It is about salvation.
I don't agree. My daughter has completely disowned me. She is still my daughter. If she asked for help and I was able to give it, I would. My son is entirely different. We get on fine. My daughter is as much my child as my son. Relationship does not change. Fellowship does.

Do you believe that the Christians in Sardis were no longer saved? That they were going to hell? Because that is the logical conclusion of your reasoning.
 
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bling

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Do you believe that the Christians in Sardis were no longer saved? That they were going to hell? Because that is the logical conclusion of your reasoning.
Right, Christians can give away or sell their birthright to heaven for the perceived pleasures of sin.


1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.



The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).



Jesus would use the very best words to convey the meaning and Jesus did not say: “God brought him to his senses”, but Jesus did say “he came to his senses”. How did he do it if he was in a dead state or can you do this if you are in a dead state? We know the young man was in a dead state because:

Luke 15: 24 “For this son of mine was dead and is alive again…” and Luke 15:32 “…because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again;…”

The Father (representing God) does not say “We thought he was dead” or “was like dead”.

There is not a definition given for being “Spiritually dead” so we cannot say exactly what that means, but from this passage Jesus is teaching us a spiritually dead person can repent.

It is a lot more complex than just looking at it and giving one meaning to “spiritually dead”. In one since the young man does not have Godly type Love and Paul teaches us (1 Cor. 13) without this Godly type Love you can do nothing of value (it is worthless) so in that since what the young man did in even repenting was “worthless” of no value. The young man is actually being “motivated” by self seeking reasoning, but it does cause him to swallow his pride. The acceptance of the Father’s Love is really not “doing” something but more allowing something to be done to you.

In other words, the young son did not really “do” anything in his dead state, but did allow the father to do stuff for him. The Young man could have gone on in the pigsty trying on his own to recover (maintaining some pride), but that would be really trying to stay alive by doing something as compared to giving up (being a walking dead person).

Yes, we have heaven as our inheritance, a birthright not written on a piece of paper that can be lost, and a deed to a home in heaven.

Yet, Esau had an unwritten birthright, which could not be lost, stolen, and even Isaac could not take it back, but Esau could give it away. It was thus truly Esau’s, because he could do with it as he pleased.

God gave us a deed/birthright to a home in heaven and it is truly ours, so if we loss interest in heaven, fell our minds with worldly things and reach the point of not caring about being with God, we can give our birthright away. It is not someone over powering God or Christ snatching us away, but like a prodigal son, we can leave on our own, God/Christ are not holding as chained prisoners.
 
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Dale

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It’s pretty clear that the message of Revelation Three on the Church at Sardis is that most of them are not saved, but they still have the opportunity to repent.

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled
their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for
they are worthy.
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will
never blot out his name from the book of life, but will
acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 4-5 NIV


Those who have “not soiled their clothes” are in the Book of Life. The inevitable conclusion is that those who have “soiled their clothes” are no longer in the Book of Life. They have been blotted out, if they were ever there at all.
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