The Prodigal Son Contradicts Predestination

[anetazo]

Friend. Luke chapter 15 is about two sons. One is Gods Election and the other are lost souls. The son who stayed working in the field is God's Elect. The other son, who ran off with his inheritance and wasted it, is those who are lost, spirtualty dead. Jesus parable is contrast from election and those with free will. The son who was lost, who came to his senses, and went back to his father. He was headed for hell. Unless he repented, and conform to God's standard. James 6:19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and convert him. 6:20. Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the errors of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. God's Election have holy spirit. It's of the body of christ. Thier primary job is to plant seeds for God, share Gods truth with sinners. The two prodigal sons are contrast of each other. Gods elect walk in the light. Lost souls walk in darkness. The contrast stops when the liost soul becomes child of light. Jude verse 23. And others save in with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by flesh. What is hell? Jesus taught in Luke chapter 16, thiers two sides of the gulf. The saints in paradise. The wicked and spirtualty dead in sheol, called hell. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead. Who are The Election? Romans chapter 8 and first Peter chapter 1. God's Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. They have holy spirit. God judged the Election in the first earth age. Satan led a rebellion against God in the first earth age, one third of God's children followed satan. Gods elect stood against satan rebellion. Those who stood against satan in the first earth age, earned the position of Elect. Second Peter chapter 3 to document the three world ages. I documented this.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting that one claims the elder brother typifies a saint when his attitudes to the return of the prodigal son were most unsaintly.

 

[Cassian]

The discussions about free will and/or predestination because there is always a redefinition of terms. Scripture speaks about and supports the free will of man from Adam to we today.
The Prodigal Son is a classic example to man' free will, being created in the Image of God with an independent will. We could not love God if we do not have free will. Whatever name you wish to give to predestination, it cannot be love. It also speaks against scripture in that God loves all of mankind. How could God command us to love all men if He did not.
One of the most used arguments for predestination is that just as one cannot give up ones relationship as a son or daughter, so a born again believer cannot give up his status as a born again believer. The problem is that the former is a physical birth the latter is a relationship, a relationship that was entered into by a person freely. It is a commitment but commitments are broken every day, some with legal contracts that are binding. Marriage being one of them.
One of the other arguments is that we as believers can lose fellowship but we cannot lose salvation.
The problem here is that we don't even have salvation. Salvation is an inheritance which one receives at the end of their faithful journey being in union/communion with God, I Pet 1:3-5. What we lose is actually faith in Christ. We were justified by faith, and we are being saved through that faith. so losing faith is losing our inheritance/salvation.
The Prodigal Son is only one of many examples in scripture of believers losing faith and forfeiting salvation. One that Jesus thought very important, so important that He explained it, one of only two. So important that Matt, Mark and Luke all tell the parable of the sower. The middle two are believers who wandered off for various reasons and were lost.
We have the unfaithful servant of Luke 12:42-46. How clear can it be that his servant was cast out with unbelievers. No guessing here. I think Jesus unbirthed him, cut the fellowship/salvation.
There are many more examples in OT and NT.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The discussions about free will and/or predestination because there is always a redefinition of terms. Scripture speaks about and supports the free will of man from Adam to we today.
The Prodigal Son is a classic example to man' free will, being created in the Image of God with an independent will. We could not love God if we do not have free will. Whatever name you wish to give to predestination, it cannot be love. It also speaks against scripture in that God loves all of mankind. How could God command us to love all men if He did not.
One of the most used arguments for predestination is that just as one cannot give up ones relationship as a son or daughter, so a born again believer cannot give up his status as a born again believer. The problem is that the former is a physical birth the latter is a relationship, a relationship that was entered into by a person freely. It is a commitment but commitments are broken every day, some with legal contracts that are binding. Marriage being one of them.
One of the other arguments is that we as believers can lose fellowship but we cannot lose salvation.
The problem here is that we don't even have salvation. Salvation is an inheritance which one receives at the end of their faithful journey being in union/communion with God, I Pet 1:3-5. What we lose is actually faith in Christ. We were justified by faith, and we are being saved through that faith. so losing faith is losing our inheritance/salvation.
The Prodigal Son is only one of many examples in scripture of believers losing faith and forfeiting salvation. One that Jesus thought very important, so important that He explained it, one of only two. So important that Matt, Mark and Luke all tell the parable of the sower. The middle two are believers who wandered off for various reasons and were lost.
We have the unfaithful servant of Luke 12:42-46. How clear can it be that his servant was cast out with unbelievers. No guessing here. I think Jesus unbirthed him, cut the fellowship/salvation.
There are many more examples in OT and NT.

This seems to be a clear cut case of interpreting a passage of scripture through the eyes of ones theology.

 

[Cassian]

This seems to be a clear cut case of interpreting a passage of scripture through the eyes of ones theology.

You are correct. One needs to develop a theory, then find the texts that seemingly support it irrespective of scripture as a whole, let alone the context from which they lifted their so-called proof texts.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The irony is that both of us claim not to have done this yet have opposing views it seems.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I thought Heb 6 speaks of not being able to crucify Jesus twice i.e. one cant be reborn again...

That being the case, if your interpretation is correct, the Father would not welcome him back as a son.

 

[Cassian]

I thought Heb 6 speaks of not being able to crucify Jesus twice i.e. one cant be reborn again...

That being the case, if your interpretation is correct, the Father would not welcome him back as a son.

Then it would behoove you to show that predestination of believers is a valid doctrine of scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I thought I had already made my position clear but if you want some more verses I could do this - however I suspect it would be a matter of me presenting and you dismissing so it is unlikely to achieve much.

You have been around long enough to know them all by now anyway.

 

[Cassian]

I thought I had already made my position clear but if you want some more verses I could do this - however I suspect it would be a matter of me presenting and you dismissing so it is unlikely to achieve much.

You have been around long enough to know them all by now anyway.

You made a few isolated statements, none of which shows a person predestined to believe.
But addressing it idea of one citing scripture and another dismissing, that it the modus operendi of any forum. Predestination as understood in Calvinism has been discussed for 500 years to date. Yet it has not ever been a doctrine of scripture believed from the beginning.

 

[Bob corrigan]

1. The things you claim that those who believe in predestination say, um, I'm not sure where you get that information from. Those of us who are sheep don't teach or believe any of that. I have always believed in God, Scripture, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, that Jesus died on the cross, was the Son of God, the Old Testament, the prophets, etc., my entire life until God opened my eyes to predestination.

2. If you are not predestinated, you will never understand or believe in predestination. Not one sheep believes in predestination until the moment in time that God opens their eyes, ears and mind to predestination. That is the way He has purposed to work. The sheep aren't even aware of predestination until the Holy Spirit guides them to the truth.

3. You can check this out, but a parable is not a true story! Parables do not relate to true events; they are a form of teaching. All others who claimed to teach the truth of Scripture in Jesus' day also used parables to teach. Some claim that there were over 5,000 parables used in those days.

4. The word "prodigal" is not used in the parable. The word "prodigal" is not used anywhere in Scripture. Thus, it is entirely wrong to call it the "parable of the prodigal son."

5. The parable, a made-up story, has nothing to do with predestination or salvation!

6. Quit worrying about predestination. Why get caught up in something you don't understand or believe? I don't believe in Big foot; others do. But, what those who believe in Big Foot state or claim doesn't matter to me. I have no interest in anything they say, and I am not going to get on a site that believes in big foot and question what they believe or say. I am not going to post, "I just don't understand Big Foot." I wouldn't waste any time trying to prove them wrong! Because at the same time, those who believe in Big Foot don't care what I think or say. It is mutual exclusion. And it works just fine!

 

[Carl Emerson]

For those whom he [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified (Romans 8:29–30).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

 

[Carl Emerson]

Eph 1:11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

Romans 9
He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

 

[Bob corrigan]

For those whom he [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified (Romans 8:29–30).

I like to ask Aminians where do you see someone "accepting Christ," "making Jesus their personal Lord and Savior," or "Inviting Jesus into their heart" anywhere in this passage? All I see is God doing what He does in regard to one being a sheep. I don't see God needing someone's permission to "work" in their life to preform His unconquerable will. People love to quote Jonh 1:12. But they ignore John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood (Jewish bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD! That one little part of the verse, "nor of the will of man" totally destroys "free will" salvation!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I like to ask Aminians where do you see someone "accepting Christ," "making Jesus their personal Lord and Savior," or "Inviting Jesus into their heart" anywhere in this passage? All I see is God doing what He does in regard to one being a sheep. I don't see God needing someone's permission to "work" in their life to preform His unconquerable will. People love to quote Jonh 1:12. But they ignore John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood (Jewish bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD! That one little part of the verse, "nor of the will of man" totally destroys "free will" salvation!

Agree - To His chosen His love is irresistible...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Also in reference to Rev 3:20

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. 22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

His sheep alone hear His voice and invite Him to work in their lives.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Dale]

1. The things you claim that those who believe in predestination say, um, I'm not sure where you get that information from. Those of us who are sheep don't teach or believe any of that. I have always believed in God, Scripture, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, that Jesus died on the cross, was the Son of God, the Old Testament, the prophets, etc., my entire life until God opened my eyes to predestination.

2. If you are not predestinated, you will never understand or believe in predestination. Not one sheep believes in predestination until the moment in time that God opens their eyes, ears and mind to predestination. That is the way He has purposed to work. The sheep aren't even aware of predestination until the Holy Spirit guides them to the truth.

3. You can check this out, but a parable is not a true story! Parables do not relate to true events; they are a form of teaching. All others who claimed to teach the truth of Scripture in Jesus' day also used parables to teach. Some claim that there were over 5,000 parables used in those days.

4. The word "prodigal" is not used in the parable. The word "prodigal" is not used anywhere in Scripture. Thus, it is entirely wrong to call it the "parable of the prodigal son."

5. The parable, a made-up story, has nothing to do with predestination or salvation!

6. Quit worrying about predestination. Why get caught up in something you don't understand or believe? I don't believe in Big foot; others do. But, what those who believe in Big Foot state or claim doesn't matter to me. I have no interest in anything they say, and I am not going to get on a site that believes in big foot and question what they believe or say. I am not going to post, "I just don't understand Big Foot." I wouldn't waste any time trying to prove them wrong! Because at the same time, those who believe in Big Foot don't care what I think or say. It is mutual exclusion. And it works just fine!

Bob,

Hello, since I don’t think I have met you on CF before.

BC: << The word "prodigal" is not used in the parable. The word "prodigal" is not used anywhere in Scripture. Thus, it is entirely wrong to call it the "parable of the prodigal son." >>

What do you call this parable? What do you think it means? Do you think it means anything?
Most Christians find the Prodigal Son to be one of the most interesting and inspiring parables in the Gospel. Why do you think otherwise?

BC: << The parable, a made-up story, has nothing to do with predestination or salvation! >>

Then what is the parable about?

BC: << Quit worrying about predestination. Why get caught up in something you don't understand or believe? >>

I cannot imagine a doctrine more carefully calculated to drive people away from Christianity than predestination. What happens when someone gets to be forty years old and they realize that there is no sign they are among the Elect? They will probably conclude that trying to please God is a waste of time.