The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

[Dorothy Mae]

You obviously have a hard time wrapping your mind around a God who knows everything... (this is too convoluted, too complicated) (for you maybe)...

Your completely ignoring the logic and scriptures that myself and others have posted...

I'm not gonna sink to your level, and just argue to argue...

The points have been made in this thread, if you choose to ignore them, that's your problem...

God Bless!

No, actually I have no problem at all with God knowing everything and not controlling it. This is because I asked God personally about him knowing everything and He explained it as best as I could understand it. Opened my mind, as do all his explanations, and I understand it to a limited degree. I say limited in comparison to how he knows his foreknowledge. But it is far and away more accurate than the guesses people bring who never asked God anything about this subject or any subject. So I understand God and his ways and some of this includes his forekowledge and how that works.

There are no scriptures that say God controls everything and everyone and plenty that say He does not since men do what he hates. That is the logic you seem to miss although maybe I mistake you for another poster.

Those scriptures you probably ignore which is too bad. People who purposely reject the bits of scripture they do not like will never have God explain the scripture to them. It is too valuable to give to those who have already decided what they want to believe.

There are those who think everyone can freely choose what they want to believe and all choices are equally valid so they never bother to search for what it true. There are a precious few who want the truth and are willing to sacrifice all understandings that do not line up with the truth even if they promised very comfortable advantages. The latter find the truth and are free. The former defend their chosen position tooth and nail. I do not say that is their problem. I find this to be quite sad but I cannot change them although I can pray for them and do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

One problem with this whole discussion/ debate is our lack of comprehension of the nature of God. He is not subject to our concepts, nor even subject to fact, actually. He is the "inventor" of fact. He operates outside of our beloved logic. That being said, we must use logic and rational thought to get along, and to think about him, and to discuss him, but we should still keep in mind he is not like us.

I once heard of someone saying (poetically, no doubt) that there is no more sovereign thing that God can do, than to give up some of his sovereignty. Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that the Bible makes no such mention, it is plainly a non-sensical thing to say. It is self-contradictory.

But to say that self-existent God exists independent of fact or principle, and is not subject to them, (unless he subject himself to them), does not defy reason, though it does stretch the mind.

I say this because we ascribe worth to our concepts of before-and-after, cause-and-effect, time, thought, and even think God is subject to our kinds of passions and desires. I admit we must talk about him, and to do so, we must have meaning to our words, but when our words are about him, we need to think a bit before proclaiming truth.

God speaks to us also, in his Word, as though our concepts are valid, (which is actually one of my strongest reasons for believing it is indeed his Word), but they are also his concepts, and as such mean much more than what we take them for. (I don't mean that, for example, when he says they caught fish, that we need to spiritualize that.) I mean that when he says he predestines, we don't know how he does that, though we can see, if he is timeless, and omnipotent, it may be one and the same thing for him to foresee and to forecause. We also may realize that for him, this whole 6000 or 15 billion year old story is already told and complete, simply by speaking it into existence.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, I can give you Bible verses where it says that the people did not do the will of God.

Where they frustrated the will of God the Son... Yes...

It is not always done and not often done.

It's not, really...? How so...?

If it were, earth would be heaven.

By your logic...

It is strange to think in a world where great evil is done and we know about it that people think the evil men do is the will of God. Well, come to think about it, the Muslims think that as do the Hindus. So maybe it is not that strange. Believers is other gods think this way as well.

Are you now accusing me of not being a Christian...? Not very Christian of you...

Anyway, people conclude after they grow and mature and humble themselves, that it is impossible for God's will not to be done, especially in the end, in any circumstance, and so this must be all a part of his plan, since he knew about it way beforehand did nothing to stop it although he could, ect, ect, and since it is impossible to thwart or conquer or overcome the will of God, (with or by our own will) therefore our will must not really exist, ect, ect...

And they/we would be right, speaking of God the Father anyway...

What you are doing is whitewashing the truth,

No, I'm not actually, I'm telling it...

that is men do evil and this is NOT the will of God.

Why not...? Cause it doesn't fit in with your point of view or logic...? And you just can't seem to reason it out...? Just because you can't or disagree doesn't make it any less true...

I guess you have a hard time accepting the consequences of God not insisting all men do his will, short term or ultimate.

And you have a hard time accepting that God predestines or makes some men to be evil...

God has ultimate plans and although they are few, they will be accomplished.

His plans are few...? No, his plans are including and encompasses everything... The only thing we do agree on is, that his (ultimate) (good) will and (good) plans will be accomplished and will come to pass eventually... But where we disagree is that, they are being accomplished "now", and "have been being accomplished", even through(out) all the bad, for a very long time now...

Just who is participating is not decided but he takes volunteers, costly though it is to them.

No we don't choose God but he chooses us, you are wrong... And, "costly"...? Not if one is humble and learns their faith lessons well, Jesus already paid the price and taught us what we needed so one would not have to...

Being a Christian doesn't have to mean that you have to "suffer" all the time (some supposedly say for God) or for others or anything like that, does not "have to" anyway, not if one is a quick learner and quick study in the faith, otherwise they might, but then, only do to their own stubborn will and faults and failings... You either humble yourself or God will cause you to humbled...

Jesus did not think men were doing the will of God. He did not think that ultimately it all works into his plan.

He didn't...? And where does it "specifically" say this...?

Paul wrote that God works all things to do for a limited number of people who qualify. I know this is threatening. A tyrant is always more comforting mentally than freedom. But God is not a tryant and the freedom we have is real.

No God is not a tyrant, and sorry you seem to think so, just because he knows everything and is the original source and cause of all... Just because a God like that doesn't fit into your "little box", so he must be a tyrant if he is... Sorry you feel and/or think that way, but it doesn't make it/this God that I am talking about here any less true or real, so, deal with it (or not) I guess...

We are relatively free based on and only because of what we don't know (what God knows)...

God Bless![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Neogaia777]

No, actually I have no problem at all with God knowing everything and not controlling it.

He knew about it all way beforehand and had the power to stop or change it, but he didn't, and since he didn't, you don't think he works it all out according to his will...?

And do you think there is any of it, "any of it at all" he doesn't know, or didn't know all of it down to the smallest detail, all way long beforehand, and you don't think he's using that...?

This is because I asked God personally about him knowing everything and He explained it as best as I could understand it. Opened my mind, as do all his explanations, and I understand it to a limited degree. I say limited in comparison to how he knows his foreknowledge.

Well on that we agree...

But it is far and away more accurate than the guesses people bring who never asked God anything about this subject or any subject.

I have and do ask God about it all the time... and, in fact, he revealed it to me in my own personal life personally, that he is in total and complete control of everything, knows everything way beforehand, and manages, not just a little, not just some things, or not just most things, but literally "everything", and uses it "all", "all of it" to his purposes, will and express desires, for whatever he wishes and or wants, wills, and/or desires... I know this personally from him... (Thankfully all that he wishes, wants, wills, desires is all good though) (otherwise we would all be toast already)...

So I understand God and his ways and some of this includes his forekowledge and how that works.

And what is that you know and/or understand about his foreknowledge...?

There are no scriptures that say God controls everything and everyone and plenty that say He does not

Interesting, God does not control and therefore is not in control of everything...?

since men do what he hates.

Men do what frustrates (the will of) God the Son...

That is the logic you seem to miss although maybe I mistake you for another poster.

What logic is that again...?

Those scriptures you probably ignore which is too bad.

What about the ones you ignore...?

People who purposely reject the bits of scripture they do not like will never have God explain the scripture to them. It is too valuable to give to those who have already decided what they want to believe.

Well, on this point I think your absolutely right...

There are those who think everyone can freely choose what they want to believe and all choices are equally valid so they never bother to search for what it true.

I am not one of those...

There are a precious few who want the truth and are willing to sacrifice all understandings that do not line up with the truth even if they promised very comfortable advantages.

On this we agree, though I doubt were on the same page or thinking the same thing though...

The latter find the truth and are free.

As free as one can be in this world and in this life, till they get to the next life, yes...

The former defend their chosen position tooth and nail. I do not say that is their problem. I find this to be quite sad but I cannot change them although I can pray for them and do.

Completely agree, though I doubt were on the same page...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

One problem with this whole discussion/ debate is our lack of comprehension of the nature of God. He is not subject to our concepts, nor even subject to fact, actually. He is the "inventor" of fact. He operates outside of our beloved logic. That being said, we must use logic and rational thought to get along, and to think about him, and to discuss him, but we should still keep in mind he is not like us.

I once heard of someone saying (poetically, no doubt) that there is no more sovereign thing that God can do, than to give up some of his sovereignty. Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that the Bible makes no such mention, it is plainly a non-sensical thing to say. It is self-contradictory.

But to say that self-existent God exists independent of fact or principle, and is not subject to them, (unless he subject himself to them), does not defy reason, though it does stretch the mind.

I say this because we ascribe worth to our concepts of before-and-after, cause-and-effect, time, thought, and even think God is subject to our kinds of passions and desires. I admit we must talk about him, and to do so, we must have meaning to our words, but when our words are about him, we need to think a bit before proclaiming truth.

God speaks to us also, in his Word, as though our concepts are valid, (which is actually one of my strongest reasons for believing it is indeed his Word), but they are also his concepts, and as such mean much more than what we take them for. (I don't mean that, for example, when he says they caught fish, that we need to spiritualize that.) I mean that when he says he predestines, we don't know how he does that, though we can see, if he is timeless, and omnipotent, it may be one and the same thing for him to foresee and to forecause. We also may realize that for him, this whole 6000 or 15 billion year old story is already told and complete, simply by speaking it into existence.

My dear brother Mark,

How God sees a matter or all matters can be communicated to his children who want to know and understand Him. Jesus says it can be done, the Old Testament says it can be done. There are examples of such men in the Bible.

But God hides himself from the proud or wise and intelligent in their own eyes and REVEALS Himself to those who are humble and dependent upon Him for knowledge.

When a man experiences this in the presence of God, it is wonderfully logical and rational. Given the understanding God gives a man, the rational is not different. The logic is not different.

But all of this requires a deeper than average relationship with God. This requires a deeper than average obedience. Without that, God hides truth. Doesn’t stop ‘em from expressing an opinion with total confidence. If a man is satisfied with the freedom to choose what he wants to believe, then man will be his source of understanding. If a man yearns answer aches and cries for nothing less than God explaining Himself, he will not fail to find Him. But what he or she finds will not fit under a label.

 

[Neogaia777]

Look, I used to a big, huge proponent of "free will", but I was not walking in the truth back then... In fact I used to endlessly debate people on here that are like me now, and was having quite a bit of success too... Till I finally realized I was wrong, and began to think differently and "higher", and began my journey trying to conceive of this all-knowing, always fully omniscient God... So, I do understand...

But I know now, it is rebellion... And was rooted in pride, egotism, arrogance, and, as I said, flat out "rebellion"... And in wanting to be and feel like I had some measure of "control" also... I did not want to find out or face what life (I used to think) would have to be like if I didn't, or if/that God was in complete total absolute 100% control of everything...

It (this truth) challenged my (prior) thoughts, perceptions, and preconceived thoughts, notions, and ideas in a way that I did not like and did not want to face, and refused to face initially for quite a long time... But as I said, it was rebellion... And that rebellious nature and attitude does not make it/this (this truth about this (kind of) God) not, not true, cause it is "true"...

And it has changed everything, I no longer fight God now like I used to, it has brought me a new kind of peace, and opened up avenues of understanding (and truth(s)) I never thought even possible before... I no longer have to suffer either... mainly caused by my own rebellion that I described...

I hope some others can embrace this (truth) and do and find this (the same) also... While I thought it would be hell, it has actually freed me in ways I never thought possible before...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Neo, what scriptures do I ignore?

I have to go to work but i’d like to know.

Thanks

more later

 

[Neogaia777]

Neo, what scriptures do I ignore?

I have to go to work but i’d like to know.

Thanks

more later

First off, I'd like to I'm sorry if I was kind of "brutal" but I do not regret it, nor do I take back what I (have) said... But hate doing it nearly every time...

To answer your question, see @sdowney717 posts in this thread...

Have a good day/night at work...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And about the Lord's prayer where it "states" "Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven"...?

You ever notice that it's a statement (of fact) and not a question...? But many want to turn it into a question, or question it, cause they cannot and do not see the Father's will being done "on earth" as it is in heaven, but "it is" "being done" "on earth" "as it is in heaven" and that is my point...

That's exactly what is (always) happening, and (always) has been happening, and (always) will be happening...

Just because that is happening and is what is being done, doesn't mean we shouldn't not, not pray for it, is, I'm pretty sure, is what I think Jesus meant...

We should always, "always pray" for the Father's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, regardless... You think Jesus would say, "Well, since that is what is always being done anyway, then there is no need to pray for it"...? No, he would never say that... We should always pray for it and "open up prayer" with it/this anyway, regardless... Not that's it's not being done, but because it is being done...

It is/was a (perfect) way of "opening" the model prayer... It's a statement of fact... Matthew 6:9-10 is and opening statement of fact to the prayer, (a statement) and not the prayer (asking) itself, that starts (and ends) in Matthew 6:11-13...

IOW's it is not "asking" for God's will to be done, but is "stating" that God's will be (and/or implies "is" being) done (on earth as it is in heaven)...

God Bless!

 

[bling]

Not extrapolating, if you read the context of what Christ says earlier about why people come to Christ, it is because all that the Father gives Him comes to Him. So if He has granted-enabled you come to the Son, that means without any doubts, you will come to Christ eventually in His perfect timing for you.

I am not saying: "there are those that come to Jesus who were not enabled by God", but there are those enabled by God and go to Christ which Christ is not the one discharging. but some that do come refuse to follow (big difference).

You are saying: “Everyone God just enables to witness Christ become followers”, but the scripture does not say that and the context is not showing that.

Just because they have been enabled to believe and are brought right in front of Christ does not mean they will believe. The statement "I will by no means cast out" means it is in no way Christ's fault they do not believe.

 

[sdowney717]

I am not saying: "there are those that come to Jesus who were not enabled by God", but there are those enabled by God and go to Christ which Christ is not the one discharging. but some that do come refuse to follow (big difference).

You are saying: “Everyone God just enables to witness Christ become followers”, but the scripture does not say that and the context is not showing that.

Just because they have been enabled to believe and are brought right in front of Christ does not mean they will believe. The statement "I will by no means cast out" means it is in no way Christ's fault they do not believe.

Sure all of them that God grant to come to Christ do come to Christ. This is God's will that of all He gives to Christ none are lost.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

God's will is Christ give eternal life to all God has given to Christ. And Christ has all authority so all powerful as is His and our Father. The Father gave this authority to Christ and simply is true.

John 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself

17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

So all God's foreknown in love elect that He foreknew as in a relationship, all of them He gave to Christ to be saved and have the eternal life that they enjoy. And so Christ is obedient to the Father and willingly gives them eternal life. He accomplished that by His death by being the sacrifice for our sins, the perfect lamb of God. He went to the cross because that was God's will, and Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so this was all determined by them from before time began.

 

[sdowney717]

This is THE GOSPEL
2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[bling]

I agree with you... Beginning for his creation...

What's your point...?

God Bless!

The point is when you or anyone else talk about God having a past or future time you ignoring the existence of God in both the past and future at the same time (being outside of time).
God's future is like history for us (we cannot change history [the free will decisions made in the past cannot be changed], yet they can still be free will choices).

God knows what happened in our future like it is history for Him, but that does not mean we did not make free will choices.

It is not like we have future choices to be made for God, but we have made those choices as far as God is concerned.

You might think about it like this: God at the end of man's time knows historically all the free will choices man made throughout time and provides that information to Himself at the beginning of man's time, so God at the beginning of time knows all man's free will choices, which did not prevent man from making those choices throughout man's time.

 

[bling]

Sure all of them that God grant to come to Christ do come to Christ. This is God's will that of all He gives to Christ none are lost.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

God's will is Christ give eternal life to all God has given to Christ. And Christ has all authority so all powerful as is His and our Father. The Father gave this authority to Christ and simply is true.

John 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself

17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

So all God's foreknown in love elect that He foreknew as in a relationship, all of them He gave to Christ to be saved and have the eternal life that they enjoy. And so Christ is obedient to the Father and willingly gives them eternal life. He accomplished that by His death by being the sacrifice for our sins, the perfect lamb of God. He went to the cross because that was God's will, and Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so this was all determined by them from before time began.

God before even the beginning of time would know He would save those who accepted His charity in the form of forgiveness, prior to the ever being humans.

You want to make salvation specific to individuals and have God giving individual names to those who would be created at some time for salvation, but that does not have to be the way He did it. You provide only an arbitrary selection to those who will eventually be saved.

 

[Loren T.]

If you think hard and deep on ALL the "factors" that influence or guide our (supposed) choices and decisions, they would seem "innumerable" to us, but that's only "to us"...

However, God numbers and can number them all, and fully knows them all... And, also how they came about, or progressed, from the very beginning... All the way back to when he set everything into motion, or things came into being or from the very moment that he gave it all "life"... It's all a program to him.... Much like a extremely complex and very highly advanced computer program, of which we are all just dancers...

It's all very highly predictable and "we" are all very highly predictable and all (is) fully knowable to him... All the way back from very, very long ago...

God Bless!

The problem with thinking this way is it makes all concepts of right and wrong, sin and evil, irrelevant. If we are all programed to do what we do, nothing can really matter. You are confusing God's knowledge with God decreeing everything. One is true, God does know what we will do in advance, but God does not program us to do it. We have a measure of free will and I say a measure, because certainly we are limited by our circumstances. But we still make free choices. If not and we are truly a highly advanced computer program, then any talk of obeying or disobeying God is gibberish.

 

[Neogaia777]

The problem with thinking this way is it makes all concepts of right and wrong, sin and evil, irrelevant. If we are all programmed to do what we do, nothing can really matter.

No it doesn't, or at least, it doesn't have to...

It only seems that way at first... But if you think on it more, it doesn't have to mean that at all... Cause of what we don't and possibly cannot know, were still left with making choices and decisions anyway, based on what we don't know and because we don't know what God knows... The ones crushed by this about God, are only crushed by it due to their own will and thinking in their ego, that they are in control or have some measure of control and not that God is in control of all and knows all...

We don't know (what God knows) right...? So, what are you going to do then...? Are (or are you not going to) choose to choose and act and make decisions anyway, regardless, or not...? What does it matter if God already knows...? And how do you also not know that your decisions, choices, actions, whatever, is all a part of God's will and plan as well...

You are confusing God's knowledge with God decreeing everything. One is true, God does know what we will do in advance, but God does not program us to do it.

He created the program (creation, us, angels, and all that is a part of creation) knowing how it would all go, turn out, all of that, how all of it would interact and affect each other, one another, ect, how that would influence all of it, what actions, choices, decisions and what those interactions would lead to at every step, ect, from very the moment (or before even) of creating it or making it or setting it all in motion...

We have a measure of free will and I say a measure, because certainly we are limited by our circumstances. But we still make free choices.

We really don't... Not really... But that should not prevent us or stop us from making what choices we think we have or that are before us, even if it's not a real choice... It/that should not stop us from making choices, or decisions, or affect our acting/interacting...

If not and we are truly a highly advanced computer program, then any talk of obeying or disobeying God is gibberish.

Again, it does not have to... And shouldn't either...

Because of what we don't know, we should, or that should not stop us from making what appear to be choices (and from our perspective is) anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You might think about it like this: God at the end of man's time knows historically all the free will choices man made throughout time and provides that information to Himself at the beginning of man's time, so God at the beginning of time knows all man's free will choices, which did not prevent man from making those choices throughout man's time.

If the choices were known, and it was all made that way anyway, that means we were all made to make the choices that we did... And those choices were all based on many prior "factors" before it, and those before that, and those before that, ect, ect, all the way back to the beginning... God made some bad ones to be bad, cause he knew from the beginning that they would be bad, and "choose" bad, yet made them to be a part of this reality anyway... Which makes God responsible...

Faith has to come in here at this point... Faith in God's goodness, regardless of what we see and/or can see, ect... Knowing that despite all this bad, God is good... and has a very, very good reason and purpose and very good plan for all of it, and will make very great and good ultimate benefit come out of all of it... in the end most especially...

We only have choice based on what we don't know, who is who, all of that... So our choices still matter "to us", and as far as "we" are concerned, but their not really, real true choices, not really...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[Neogaia777]

As long as our choices for the future are dictated by our past (experiences) (including and and all "factors") (even the smallest ones) we will never be able to, nor never did we ever, nor can we ever, "operate", or choose in a way, that is not all fully knowable, and all fully totally predictable by a fully all-knowing, completely and totally fully omniscient being (or God) (the true Father)...

What does he "do" with this knowledge is the real question...?

What is that one "like"...?

There is only one path, only one way our lives, and our world can go... We cannot (it seems), escape or change or ever "cheat fate" it seems...

What is our fate...?

God Bless!

 

[Loren T.]

No it doesn't, or at least, it doesn't have to...

It only seems that way at first... But if you think on it more, it doesn't have to mean that at all... Cause of what we don't and possibly cannot know, were still left with making choices and decisions anyway, based on what we don't know and because we don't know what God knows... The ones crushed by this about God, are only crushed by it due to their own will and thinking in their ego, that they are in control or have some measure of control and not that God is in control of all and knows all...

This is amusing. You are contradicting yourself constantly. We can't be crushed because of our own thinking or our own will, if we don't have any will! You are still assuming we have some control, or your post here makes no sense. If God is controlling everything, he is controlling what you think, he is controlling what thoughts enter your head and what thoughts don't. He is causing everything in your scenario. Again, there is a huge difference between knowing and controlling.