The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

[Neogaia777]

Thank you
Since Jesus asked us to pray that His will be done, it is obvious that Jesus thought that otherwise His will is not done and it is certainly not done all the time by all men. So yes, we make choices or takes actions independent of God's will, that is, outside of His will. If you define His will as the life we have, then you have a non-biblical understanding of His will. He is not micromanaging the universe and all in it. His being angry at what men do is clear indication that they did not do his will. Otherwise his anger makes no sense at all. This along with many other depictions of his position.

Of course it is possible. If a man does not want to be a part of God's plan, God chooses someone else. Saul was chosen to be King and messed up. So God chose David. Seems pretty easy to see for me. (If God is not threatened that men can force Him to change the participants in his plan, why should be be aghast?)

That his will be done on earth as it is being done in heaven, right...?

God's will is always being done, and nothing can change that, so there has to be another reason for praying for it, and it is probably circling around being for our benefit and not God's benefit, since praying is for us and not for God...

Like that we be chosen to be in and a part of God's will, or that certain things are or do, ect... (cause we don't know) (and he (God) already does)...

It was kind of a redundant prayer anyway, Jesus knew that God's will is always done, but wanted us to pray for it to be done anyway, not for God but for us...

He does not have to micromanage the universe is my point, in fact he (God the Father) has no reason to interfere or interact with it all, since he knows all from the very beginning of it all... That's what God the Son is for...

You have to understand the the difference between God the Father (not YHWH) and God the Son (YHWH/Christ).... It is the Son's will that matters most here...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There is not "beginning" for God. There is only a beginning for man. God exist throughout time just as God exist everywhere.

I agree with you... Beginning for his creation...

What's your point...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Look there is a God who knows all, and if there is a God who knows all, including what we will choose ahead of time, then how can we make a choice...?

We do not have true, complete free will...

Those of you who think we do, deny the omniscience of God...

God Bless!

 

[sdowney717]

That his will be done on earth as it is being done in heaven, right...?

God's will is always being done, and nothing can change that, so there has to be another reason for praying for it, and it is probably circling around being for our benefit and not God's benefit, since praying is for us and not for God...

Like that we be chosen to be in and a part of God's will, or that certain things are or do, ect... (cause we don't know) (and he (God) already does)...

It was kind of a redundant prayer anyway, Jesus knew that God's will is always done, but wanted us to pray for it to be done anyway, not for God but for us...

He does not have to micromanage the universe is my point, in fact he (God the Father) has no reason to interfere or interact with it all, since he knows all from the very beginning of it all... That's what God the Son is for...

You have to understand the the difference between God the Father (not YHWH) and God the Son (YHWH/Christ).... It is the Son's will that matters most here...

God Bless!

I came to that realization some years earlier, that prayer about God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven is more for our benefit to help us in understanding that His will is being done in the earth. It is like an affirming AMEN.

But you know, IF God be for you, then who can be against you!
No one, no one can prevail against God or God's elect. No one can bring a charge against God's elect as it is God who justifies, who then can condemn, why no one can!
Actually this is supposed to a positive message, Paul wrote that to the suffering church.
here is the relevant scriptures.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [g]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[sdowney717]

Regarding God's perfect control over His creation, God shows mercy to whom He wills, and not to others according to His will. Others He hardens in their sin, not showing them any mercy to be saved by belief and knowledge of the Truth in Christ. To them which are perishing, He leaves them to die in their sins with the minds blinded by Satan, to some the gospel is veiled, to others the gospel is revealed. This is according the will of God, not the devils' will and not our will.

2 Corinthians 4.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

While for others, He reveals to them His Son inside of them, as He did for Paul, read here,

Galatians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles,


Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

 

[Neogaia777]

Someone said to me in a discussion about this:

Even if our choices are known, the fact remains that they are our choices. I sincerely take responsibility for my choices and give them to God.

I said:

Exactly, that was going to be my next point, after and if I can ever get this one made first... That, regardless of that, there is (this that you point out) is the only way to go about it anyway, and is how God wants us to go about it...

Some people think in light of this that they shouldn't or why should they even try or exert themselves or choose or make any effort(s) at all, but, that is the wrong way to go about it, cause how do you know your acting, your choosing is not a part of God's plan or not...

So, I choose to act, I choose to choose to chose as if I had a choice, even if I don't, cause that may be a part of God's plan, and since I don't know, I choose to choose and I choose to act anyway regardless...

Just because someone (a God) (the God) already knows, you shouldn't let that stop you... Or even interfere with your choices at all...

God Bless!

 

[sdowney717]

Someone said to me in a discussion about this:

Even if our choices are known, the fact remains that they are our choices. I sincerely take responsibility for my choices and give them to God.

I said:

Exactly, that was going to be my next point, after and if I can ever get this one made first... That, regardless of that, there is (this that you point out) is the only way to go about it anyway, and is how God wants us to go about it...

Some people think in light of this that they shouldn't or why should they even try or exert themselves or choose or make any effort(s) at all, but, that is the wrong way to go about it, cause how do you know your acting, your choosing is not a part of God's plan or not...

So, I choose to act, I choose to choose to chose as if I had a choice, even if I don't, cause that may be a part of God's plan, and since I don't know, I choose to choose and I choose to act anyway regardless...

Just because someone (a God) (the God) already knows, you shouldn't let that stop you... Or even interfere with your choices at all...

God Bless!

The actions of man are all part of God's plan, for example about Christ's crucifixion is said.

Acts 2:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [a]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

The difference is that His saints bear fruit set for eternal life, while those of the world bear evil fruit for death. Even this is determined beforehand, for the saints, as it says in Ephesians 2, about us being His workmanship. And here in Romans 6, we now bear fruit to holiness and everlasting life, whereas the world of unbelief bears fruit unto death by their evil deeds. Man is not a free agent, either man is on the broad path that the many walk to destruction or the path that leads to eternal life. Be thankful you have your fruit set to holiness and eternal life, and be grateful for your salvation, that God showed to you His mercy and not His wrath. God made both the evil and the good men from the same lump of clay, so it was not anything good in you that set you apart from the other. We were all once as like unto the children of wrath, but God had another plan.

Romans 6:20-22 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

2 Thessalonians 2, God chose you from the beginning to be saved. And He tells us how He did that here. This was predetermined because all God's children are predestined before they were born to obtain the salvation in Christ. If God did all this work for you beforehand, from before time began, before He made the earth and the seas and the worlds, He certainly will complete the good work He started in you and you will obtain the salvation of your soul.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Neogaia777]

God makes and will make right all atrocities that he has allowed, (those that he has chosen for hell) (all that) or all bad and atrocities that he has made a part of his will or plan (for now), "right" in the end, that's where faith in the goodness of God has to come in...

We and the world had to be and get and go through bad, before the good could even be or come... The good that is to ultimately come about can only be (so) if we go through a period and time of bad, otherwise it (the ultimate good) is not possible...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The actions of man are all part of God's plan, for example about Christ's crucifixion is said.

Acts 2:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [a]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

The difference is that His saints bear fruit set for eternal life, while those of the world bear evil fruit for death. Even this is determined beforehand, for the saints, as it says in Ephesians 2, about us being His workmanship. And here in Romans 6, we now bear fruit to holiness and everlasting life, whereas the world of unbelief bears fruit unto death by their evil deeds. Man is not a free agent, either man is on the broad path that the many walk to destruction or the path that leads to eternal life. Be thankful you have your fruit set to holiness and eternal life, and be grateful for your salvation, that God showed to you His mercy and not His wrath. God made both the evil and the good men from the same lump of clay, so it was not anything good in you that set you apart from the other. We were all once as like unto the children of wrath, but God had another plan.

Romans 6:20-22 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

2 Thessalonians 2, God chose you from the beginning to be saved. And He tells us how He did that here. This was predetermined because all God's children are predestined before they were born to obtain the salvation in Christ. If God did all this work for you beforehand, from before time began, before He made the earth and the seas and the worlds, He certainly will complete the good work He started in you and you will obtain the salvation of your soul.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Awesome, thank you for you posts and your help, I appreciate it a lot...

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[EmSw]

Someone said to me in a discussion about this:

Even if our choices are known, the fact remains that they are our choices. I sincerely take responsibility for my choices and give them to God.

Which came first, our choices, or God knowing our choices?

 

[Neogaia777]

Which came first, our choices, or God knowing our choices?

God knowing our choices... God's choice came/comes before ours...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Someone said to me in a discussion about this:

Even if our choices are known, the fact remains that they are our choices. I sincerely take responsibility for my choices and give them to God.

I said:

Exactly, that was going to be my next point, after and if I can ever get this one made first... That, regardless of that, there is (this that you point out) is the only way to go about it anyway, and is how God wants us to go about it...

Some people think in light of this that they shouldn't or why should they even try or exert themselves or choose or make any effort(s) at all, but, that is the wrong way to go about it, cause how do you know your acting, your choosing is not a part of God's plan or not...

So, I choose to act, I choose to choose to chose as if I had a choice, even if I don't, cause that may be a part of God's plan, and since I don't know, I choose to choose and I choose to act anyway regardless...

Just because someone (a God) (the God) already knows, you shouldn't let that stop you... Or even interfere with your choices at all...

God Bless!

Now someone might say: "Well, if my doing, choosing, acting, or "whatever" is part of God's will, a part of God's plan, then, what if I choose not to act, choose or do anything at all...? Is that God's will also...?

Then I would say to them: "Well, first off, for one thing, you are already trying to find a way to choose, or act, or make a decision that is "outside" God's will, or outside a certain someone's knowing it, and can't you see the problem with that...? And do you know why you do that...? And can't you see the "rebellious nature" involved in that...? And how you just can't stand, or can't stomach the fact of someone knowing your choices, actions, decisions, or "whatever" (way) ahead of time, before ever you do it...? Cause you can't stand not being or feeling like "your in control" (of your own life, world, will, "whatever")...? You don't see the problem(s) with that...?

Anyway, besides that, back to the discussion, if you choose not to act, be, choose, or do, or not do or "whatever", it would still be in God's will and plan and God would still know way beforehand, what you were going to do either way you did it...

Cause our choices (either way) are all dictated by prior factors, circumstances, ect... Our "programming" determines what we will decide, long before we ever decide it... And do you think God does not "know" that fully...? and does not know "all about that" down to every (seemingly to us) infinite, smallest, minute detail... Cause he does...

Anyway,

The problem is we don't know (that) (what God knows)... Which leaves us with "what" again...? (what I stated in post #46 a few posts before this one)... To proceed however we would (have) proceed(ed) regardless... There is no other "choice"...

So, the problem is choice, but God already knows (what we will choose, "whatever") (which shouldn't stop or prevent us from making choices) (and I would say even interfere at all with any of our decisions)...

To me that seems like the best way to submit to God's will, plan, and/or decisions, or "whatever", is to just proceed just as we would have proceeded regardless...

But just knowing God's got it/this/you and there is no need for worry... How's that song go...? "He's got the whole wide world in his hands, the whole wide world in his hands, he's got the whole world in his hands."...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That his will be done on earth as it is being done in heaven, right...?

God's will is always being done, and nothing can change that, so there has to be another reason for praying for it, and it is probably circling around being for our benefit and not God's benefit, since praying is for us and not for God...

I assure you, God's will is not done and I can prove it out of the Bible over and over again. Sin is always not doing the will of God. Always.

Like that we be chosen to be in and a part of God's will, or that certain things are or do, ect... (cause we don't know) (and he (God) already does)...

It was kind of a redundant prayer anyway, Jesus knew that God's will is always done, but wanted us to pray for it to be done anyway, not for God but for us...

What a complicated knot of theology one developes when on rejects the simple obvious truth in favor something safe but illogical. Jesus told us to pray God's will be done because it is not done. Simple. NO need for such a complicated nonsensical knot of thinking as above.

He does not have to micromanage the universe is my point, in fact he (God the Father) has no reason to interfere or interact with it all, since he knows all from the very beginning of it all... That's what God the Son is for...

Knowing something is not controlling it. Insisting his will is always done is controlling it. YOu have changed points.

You have to understand the the difference between God the Father (not YHWH) and God the Son (YHWH/Christ).... It is the Son's will that matters most here...

God Bless!

You assume I do not know this because I do not think as you do. Since you think God is not micromanaging the world and yet his will is always done. This is not possible. These are mutually exclusive.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God knowing our choices... God's choice came/comes before ours...

God Bless!

This too is too convoluted. The simple and correct understanding is God makes choices and we make choices and some of his choices change or are based on the choices we make. His knowing it ought not to be a part of the discussion. His foreknowledge has no impact or an unknown impact on choices he made.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Someone said to me in a discussion about this:

Even if our choices are known, the fact remains that they are our choices. I sincerely take responsibility for my choices and give them to God.

I said:

Exactly, that was going to be my next point, after and if I can ever get this one made first... That, regardless of that, there is (this that you point out) is the only way to go about it anyway, and is how God wants us to go about it...

Some people think in light of this that they shouldn't or why should they even try or exert themselves or choose or make any effort(s) at all, but, that is the wrong way to go about it, cause how do you know your acting, your choosing is not a part of God's plan or not...

So, I choose to act, I choose to choose to chose as if I had a choice, even if I don't, cause that may be a part of God's plan, and since I don't know, I choose to choose and I choose to act anyway regardless...

Just because someone (a God) (the God) already knows, you shouldn't let that stop you... Or even interfere with your choices at all...

God Bless!

OH, how complicated. When one walks with God and hears his voice, one simply asks Him what is His will or what is the choice He would like one to make and then one makes it. Simple. Then we KNOW if our choice is a part of his plan, against his plan or has no impact on his plan. This is what relationship with God is all about. His sheep hear his voice. That is part of what his sheep hear.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The actions of man are all part of God's plan, for example about Christ's crucifixion is said

You can quote a 1000 times the plan of God was fulfilled and I only need one example where it clearly was not to disprove your position.

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." That last line is pretty interesting....it did not even enter God's mind. Hummmmmmmm (Now I know God pretty well and I know what that meant so I am not accusing Him of being surprised. What I do know about that is not a part of this thread. Just thought I would present scripture that describes the thinking of God and clearly He is not having his will done, not micromanaging the world, not ensuring anyone is saved nor anything else that is evil if one thinks about it long enough.)

The will of God was not done at other times too. Jesus said people would like believers and THINK they were doing God's will. They were are are wrong. He said some would receive the Word and the plant of faith would grow but wither because of riches or pleasures or troubles or persecution. THeir faith would die and the would be lost. None of that was or is the will of God who loves them. But it does happen and He does not feel responsible for making sure that stuff does not happen. Sorry but we are responsible for our faith and growth and not losing our faith and salvation. (Going to get a storm out of that one, I know...but it is love that motivates me to tell the truth here.)

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[Neogaia777]

I assure you, God's will is not done and I can prove it out of the Bible over and over again. Sin is always not doing the will of God. Always.
What a complicated knot of theology one developes when on rejects the simple obvious truth in favor something safe but illogical. Jesus told us to pray God's will be done because it is not done. Simple. NO need for such a complicated nonsensical knot of thinking as above.
Knowing something is not controlling it. Insisting his will is always done is controlling it. YOu have changed points.
You assume I do not know this because I do not think as you do. Since you think God is not micromanaging the world and yet his will is always done. This is not possible. These are mutually exclusive.

God the Father's will is always being done, and has and is always being done...

They were to pray and were praying for the end results or fulfillment of his ultimate, in the end good will, that he has for the future to come to pass now or soon or very soon and/or quicker...

But the "process" of his will being worked out and done is always being done toward that ultimate good will end goal that they were to pray and were praying for...

Your not listening and deny the logic of my arguments and just seem to want to argue to argue, so, I don't know if I will be replying to you further or not...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

OH, how complicated. When one walks with God and hears his voice, one simply asks Him what is His will or what is the choice He would like one to make and then one makes it. Simple. Then we KNOW if our choice is a part of his plan, against his plan or has no impact on his plan. This is what relationship with God is all about. His sheep hear his voice. That is part of what his sheep hear.

You obviously have a hard time wrapping your mind around a God who knows everything... (this is too convoluted, too complicated) (for you maybe)...

Your completely ignoring the logic and scriptures that myself and others have posted...

I'm not gonna sink to your level, and just argue to argue...

The points have been made in this thread, if you choose to ignore them, that's your problem...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God the Father's will is always being done, and has and is always being done...

They were to pray and were praying for the end results or fulfillment of his ultimate, in the end good will, that he has for the future to come to pass now or soon or very soon and/or quicker...

But the "process" of his will being worked out and done is always being done toward that ultimate good will end goal that they were to pray and were praying for...

Your not listening and deny the logic of my arguments and just seem to want to argue to argue, so, I don't know if I will be replying to you further or not...

God Bless!

No, I can give you Bible verses where it says that the people did not do the will of God. It is not always done and not often done. If it were, earth would be heaven. Iit is strange to think in a world where great evil is done and we know about it that people think the evil men do is the will of God. Well, come to think about it, the Muslims think that as do the Hindus. So maye it is not that strange. Believers is other gods think this way as well.

What you are doing is whitewashing the truth, that is men do evil and this is NOT the will of God. I guess you have a hard time accepting the consequences of God not insisting all men do his will, short term or ultimate. God has ultimate plans and although they are few, they will be accomplished. Just who is participating is not decided but he takes volunteers, costly though it is to them.

Jesus did not think men were doing the will of God. He did not think that ultimately it all works into his plan. Paul wrote that God works all things to do for a limited number of people who qualify. I know this is threatening. A tyrant is always more comforting mentally than freedom. But God is not a tryant and the freedom we have is real.