The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

[Neogaia777]

I just have one thing for you... What reason would an always 100% fully omniscient God, fully knowing how all would go and be from the very, very beginning... What reason would he have to get or be "upset" or disturbed, or moved, or perturbed by anything, anything at all...? The answer is: there is just "no reason" at all for a God like that to do or be so, or be like that ever at all, ever...

However, this would cause a problem for such a one to be able to reveal or show himself him or his "heart", which would require another... That "fact" that "problem" would require another who could and would be able to do that... For that one to be able to do that, he would have to just slightly more limited in certain ways than the other one (to be able to do that) otherwise it could not happen... Things would have to be able to happen (to and with him) (such a one chosen for this) that he could not predict or know, or he would not be expecting sometimes... He would have to be limited in such a way for that (to be able to) happen...

This is YHWH in the OT, and Jesus the man in the NT... for they are one in the same one...

Now the Father, (the always 100% truly omniscient one), could even predict and fully know, not just only our choices, but all the choices/decisions/emotions and actions/recations of that one chosen (for this task) one as well (as well as us and ours also)... His (that ones) choices would be a/the "central", vital part of the overall, always 100% truly omniscient ones "plan" and plans (for us and him and for all) and that ones will from the very beginning...

YHWH/Jesus/God the Son's choices/actions/decisions ect, were all fully predictable and fully knowable and were all fully known way, way ahead of time by this God (who I call the true Father) from the very beginning of him/them and us (creation)... All fully all completely knowable and were all fully completely known by the one who (always) fully knew it all, and knows/knew it all from the very beginning, including all the actions choices decision/emotions and emotional actions/reactions of even his own Son as our God from the very beginning... All that/those (choices/actions/decisons, ect) (his (that one chosen to be our God and reveal God to us) and ours) all being part of his (the true Father's, the always 100% truly and fully omniscient ones) overall plan(s) and will from the very, very beginning...

Are you following what I am saying...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Is God's wrath, does his (The Son's, I'm assuming, though it may be the feelings of the Father as well) does his wrath still exist today, and will it be unleashed upon us in the last days, or is or has it been unleashed upon us periodically in the past after what Jesus did, between that time and now, or are we just experiencing natural consequence(s) for our sinful actions/inactions...?

The Father may have made place way ahead of time, and made the Son's wrath (their wrath maybe) he may have made place for the Son's wrath (to be expressed) and made it part of his (the Father's) plan(s) way ahead of time...

What do you think...?

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The problems I see with a God who determines or made or predetermined and predestined "all" to the way it all is, all the time and always, and people to be who and what they are, all that, is: for one, how could he (God) judge or condemn someone for being bad, if that's the way he made them (to be)...? I answer that by saying that yes, he does make some bad people and bad seeds, and predestines some to go to hell even, and they did not have any choice in the matter, which makes him (God) responsible, right...?

Well, some are made for this fallen world and fallen time for the purpose of being a "standing example to us in the next life", as to what "not" to do, or how "not" to be, all that, what mistakes not to make, so we won't mess up the next life, where we will have to choice or option to... Cause there (in heaven) will we will have the option and choice of messing it up if we want to, just like in the beginning, the difference is we will have some experience as to what that choice to mess it up will do, and we have those created to be examples to and for us as to what not to do or how not to be... Anyway, we will be able to mess up heaven basically, but absolutely none of will ever choose to ever or anymore, or for forevermore... Partially due to the people who were made to be examples to and for us (who end up in hell, and who were made to go to be in hell)...

Now, that being said, the problem is, in this life here, we "don't know"... We "don't know" who is who, what is what, basically... So, we have to proceed based on that not knowing and not being able to know, (who's who, what's what, basically)... And the way we proceed based on not knowing is that everyone is "in question" as to where they stand with God, their salvation, (or going to hell) (all that) form our point of view or perspective... We just "don't know" where hardly anyone is or stands in that for sure... So, we have to, for one, first determine what is required to be saved or to be standing on the right side of things in the afterlife, and cause we generally don't know where anyone is or stands (with God) (or in the afterlife) for sure, we have determine what it is that determines that, and then try to make sure that we are on the right side and in right standing, and also, as many others as we can also...

Now God already knows, but we don't... In fact, he already predetermined, "all" long ago, but we do not get to have much insight into, or know much anything about that, (that he knows about), (till we get to the afterlife)...

Once we determine what will make us on the right side in the afterlife, we then need to tell others and help others be or wind up on the "right side" also... Problem is that their seems to be no solid black and white in this, and it usually depends on the heart of an individual, and individual by individual circumstances, that, we also, don't know much about most of the time, or do not have much insight into a lot of the time... Sure, some think there is a solid black and white, and think they know, but how often have they turned out to be so very wrong most of the time and have sinned greatly in doing so...?

We may be able to say that, for certain, in most cases, specific really terrible, horrible sins, in most cases (though maybe not absolutely all) unrepented of, or unchanged, will keep a person out of heaven and will land them in hell... On these things we might be able to judge and speak out against, done for the sake of trying to warn others and save them...

But, what are these... That's what we need to figure out I think, before we judge anything...

Anyway,

God Bless!

I have one question for you,

is God's will always done on the earth all the time by all of creation?

 

[Neogaia777]

I have one question for you,

is God's will always done on the earth all the time by all of creation?

Yes, the true Father's will always is... but it also involves the will and choices (decisions, actions, even inactions in some cases) (both and/or good and/or bad) of others, including God the Son's our God's choices/decisions/actions/reactions/will/emotions ect...

All is always going the way the "always fully omniscient one's" (the true Father's) anyway, all is always going all according to his will and plans from the beginning the entire or whole time, (what's going or goes on or happens in and with creation, with his Son and us, all that) from the very beginning (of time, creation, ect)...

God the true Father, knows all the many, multiple, seemingly infinite "factors" that influence and have influenced all and every choice/action/decision, ect, he knows them all, and knew them all, all the time, and from the beginning of time... And can fully predict all, and how that all unfolds and comes to be and comes to pass, ect, from the very, very beginning of all or any (thing, time, ect)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Why do you people fight this so hard...?

Does it really matter that much if there is one who knows all (every single choice/action/decision, whatever) Why does it matter so much...? I mean, it's not like he's telling us (about them) (our choices/actions/decisions) (or what he knows regarding that/them)... So, why does it matter so much...? Do we not proceed or go ahead as if we do have choice in the matter anyway...? even if we really may or do not, not really anyway...? What other "choice" do you/we have...?

IMO it is mankind's, and it is the source of mankind's rebellion, that seems to have to insist that they can have a will or make a decision independent of God's will...

Is it because "you think" that God can't be good, or love or all of that, if you do not have a will independent, or free of or from, God's will...? Or what...?

What exactly is the problem(s) and or issue(s) here...? If you tell me, I will try to address them...? But, my guess is that the true source of these issues and/or problems is really your own rebellion, and lack of submission...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I have one question for you,

is God's will always done on the earth all the time by all of creation?

K, I have a question for you,

Do you think you, or anyone, or anything, that is in, or is a part of creation, can make a choice, (or take an action or make a decision) independent of God's will...?

Some how foul up or completely mess up all his plans, whether it be an individual, or nation or "whatever"...? Do you think that is possible...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This whole free will rebellion nonsense is mankind's pathetic rebellious attempt to (believe he is) in "control" or his own life, the world around him, ect...

When it's all a sham, we were never in control but God is, and always has been...

So, what then shall we say...? When we decide to do something, make some plans or make a decision, or something, or I would say anything, we should be saying, "If God wills, we will do (or be or whatever) this or that, ect"... Or "God willing" we will, ect, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This whole free will rebellion nonsense is mankind's pathetic rebellious attempt to (believe he is) in "control" or his own life, the world around him, ect...

When it's all a sham, we were never in control but God is, and always has been...

So, what then shall we say...? When we decide to do something, make some plans or make a decision, or something, or I would say anything, we should be saying, "If God wills, we will do (or be or whatever) this or that, ect"... Or "God willing" we will, ect, ect...

God Bless!

To quote a line from Matrix:

This is what I have to say to the rest of you: "Here, have cookie, by the time your done eating it, you'll feel right as rain... You'll remember you don't believe in any of this fate/destiny crap, your in control of your own life/world, remember...?

(He turned out to be wrong BTW), (as are the rest of you)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

To quote a line from Matrix:

This is what I have to say to the rest of you: "Here, have cookie, by the time your done eating it, you'll feel right as rain... You'll remember you don't believe in any of this fate/destiny crap, your in control of your own life/world, remember...?

(He turned out to be wrong BTW), (as are the rest of you)...

God Bless!

And to continue likening this to the Matrix series...

Smith said: We are not here cause we are free, we are here because we are not free, there is no escaping it/that...

Neo, at the end of the series says, "You right Smith, you were always right"...

And Neo stops rebelling and submits...

Then they die together, to "free" the others...

The end... (almost)...

For some say they were resurrected as one new combined spirit man, in control of the Matrix...

Ephesians 2:15- "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Likewise I don't think any of us are free here, and will not ever truly be till we transcend or get to heaven, if we do, or for those of us that do...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

K, I have a question for you,

Do you think you, or anyone, or anything, that is in, or is a part of creation, can make a choice, (or take an action or make a decision) independent of God's will...?

Some how foul up or completely mess up all his plans, whether it be an individual, or nation or "whatever"...? Do you think that is possible...?

God Bless!

Please answer my question first. Is God's will always done on earth? Yes or no.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And to continue likening this to the Matrix series...

Smith said: We are not here cause we are free, we are here because we are not free, there is no escaping it/that...

Neo, at the end of the series says, "You right Smith, you were always right"...

And Neo stops rebelling and submits...

Then they die together, to "free" the others...

The end... (almost)...

For some say they were resurrected as one new combined spirit man, in control of the Matrix...

Ephesians 2:15- "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Likewise I don't think any of us are free here, and will not ever truly be till we transcend or get to heaven, if we do, or for those of us that do...

God Bless!

Odd that you take truth from a movie instead of the Bible. Jesus said if we keep his teaching we will be free. I do and it is absolutely true. You can doubt it and think none of us are free but you are wrong. Keep his teaching and you are free. It is true but not for those who do not.

 

[Neogaia777]

Please answer my question first. Is God's will always done on earth? Yes or no.

I did post#24, and it was yes... An I explained it/that as well...

And since I answered yours (post #24) then can you answer mine (please)...?

Which was: Do you think you, or anyone, or anything, that is in, or is a part of creation, can make a choice, (or take an action or make a decision) independent of God's will...?

Some how foul up or completely mess up all his plans, whether it be an individual, or nation or "whatever"...? Do you think that is possible...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Odd that you take truth from a movie instead of the Bible. Jesus said if we keep his teaching we will be free. I do and it is absolutely true. You can doubt it and think none of us are free but you are wrong. Keep his teaching and you are free. It is true but not for those who do not.

I was "likening" it to a movie, (free will/predestination) and trying to describe some interesting parallels, not taking a movie as truth, but, "whatever"...

Freedom is relative... (to the truth you know, embrace, or cling to)... And if that is a false truth then your not free, but are only deceived into thinking you are (free) (when your really not)... Jesus said "the truth will make (set) you free"... (John 8:32)... Not, "If we keep his teaching"... that is no where (specifically) in the Bible...

We are free only if God makes us free, and in this world you can only be relatively free at best... I am "relatively free", (and relative to everyone else I more free than any of you) but I will not be truly, completely free till I get to heaven...

But stay in your rebellion if you wish, (for I doubt you know the truth) makes no difference to me...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did post#24, and it was yes... An I explained it/that as well...

And since I answered yours (post #24) then can you answer mine (please)...?

Thank you

Which was: Do you think you, or anyone, or anything, that is in, or is a part of creation, can make a choice, (or take an action or make a decision) independent of God's will...?

Since Jesus asked us to pray that His will be done, it is obvious that Jesus thought that otherwise His will is not done and it is certainly not done all the time by all men. So yes, we make choices or takes actions independent of God's will, that is, outside of His will. If you define His will as the life we have, then you have a non-biblical understanding of His will. He is not micromanaging the universe and all in it. His being angry at what men do is clear indication that they did not do his will. Otherwise his anger makes no sense at all. This along with many other depictions of his position.

Some how foul up or completely mess up all his plans, whether it be an individual, or nation or "whatever"...? Do you think that is possible...?

God Bless!

Of course it is possible. If a man does not want to be a part of God's plan, God chooses someone else. Saul was chosen to be King and messed up. So God chose David. Seems pretty easy to see for me. (If God is not threatened that men can force Him to change the participants in his plan, why should be be aghast?)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I was "likening" it to a movie, (free will/predestination) and trying to describe some interesting parallels, not taking a movie as truth, but, "whatever"...

Well, the philosophy in the movie does not describe how God sees the matter. That is my point. Since God will ask each person to give him an answer as the choices THEY made while in the body, God obviously thinks they had the free will to make those choices. I do not see how it can be any other way.

Freedom is relative... (to the truth you know, embrace, or cling to)... And if that is a false truth then your not free, but are only deceived into thinking you are (free) (when your really not)... Jesus said "the truth will make (set) you free"... (John 8:32)... Not, "If we keep his teaching"... that is no where (specifically) in the Bible...

Actually you are editing out what Jesus said. There is a condition for this....it is

"
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”"

Now it is true that I left out knowing the truth, but that is nevertheless dependent not upon someone telling you the truth but you obeying his teaching. So you are in error. We are required to hold to or keep or obey his teaching and only if we do that, will be know the truth. The truth, btw, is not information. It is not the Gospel. We are not required to hold to his teaching to understand the Gospel.

We are free only if God makes us free, and in this world you can only be relatively free at best... I am "relatively free", (and relative to everyone else I more free than any of you) but I will not be truly, completely free till I get to heaven...

Too bad because it seems clear to me that you are less free than others seeing as how you restrict the freedom God can give to you in this life. According to your faith so it is done to you. Since you do not believe you can be completely free, then you will not be. This is less than the freedom others enjoy because their level of keeping his teaching is different. I would not be so quick to exalt you ("more free than any of us") and put us down. You just expose your weakenesses to us.

But stay in your rebellion if you wish, (for I doubt you know the truth) makes no difference to me...

God Bless!

Oh, this is definately NOT the way Jesus would be to someone. This is the opposite of his teaching. And you do not even care about others. And you, again, insult my character by calling me rebellious. (Something you cannot possibly know.) You seem to think pretty highly of yourself and your thinking.

God opposes the proud (those who think highly of themselves) but gives grace to the humble (those who do not think themselves better than others.)

 

[bling]

Oh but it is....




Talking about God the Father, the always fully truly omniscient one, No... That has already been determined already from the beginning... "All" has already been determined from his perspective...

God Bless!

There is not "beginning" for God. There is only a beginning for man. God exist throughout time just as God exist everywhere.

 

[bling]

The free will choices you make have been guided by your circumstances. So you can only make choices within the boundaries of your situation.
God determines the extent and boundaries of all the people over the earth, He changes the circumstances, recall the tower of Babel for one example. God does intervene, even against the will of the creature. Someday we will all be aware of how much God has His hands in all things..But for believers, it is all for their good.

Romans 11 speaks to God controlling the fate of the gentile and jewish nations.
'For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.' is highly appropriate to consider here. by saying v36, we know God is responsible ultimately for all things.
And honestly this should be of strong consolation to anyone who is a believer in Christ.


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

You are right most of the time, our decisions are the results of lots of other factors and not our “free will”, but they are not significant when it comes to salvation (Jew, Gentile, rich, poor, race, education) are not significant in salvation.

So, I agree with you, God is controlling and setting us up, but God sets all mature adults individually up to have the very best opportunity to accept or reject His Charity (Love, grace, mercy, forgiveness). That is the only free will choice we need to make. God has provided us with this extremely limited amount of autonomous free will, so we can truly become like God in that we have Godly type Love.

I do not have to show we have complete free will to do what we want all the time since we do not, but you have to show we cannot have a very limited free will at some time in our mature life to accept or reject God’s Love. These “opportunities” usually come when our own poor actions bring us to our senses (like with the prodigal son) and we have the opportunity to selfishly wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God while we still hate God.

 

[sdowney717]

You are right most of the time, our decisions are the results of lots of other factors and not our “free will”, but they are not significant when it comes to salvation (Jew, Gentile, rich, poor, race, education) are not significant in salvation.

So, I agree with you, God is controlling and setting us up, but God sets all mature adults individually up to have the very best opportunity to accept or reject His Charity (Love, grace, mercy, forgiveness). That is the only free will choice we need to make. God has provided us with this extremely limited amount of autonomous free will, so we can truly become like God in that we have Godly type Love.

I do not have to show we have complete free will to do what we want all the time since we do not, but you have to show we cannot have a very limited free will at some time in our mature life to accept or reject God’s Love. These “opportunities” usually come when our own poor actions bring us to our senses (like with the prodigal son) and we have the opportunity to selfishly wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God while we still hate God.

Jesus said all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, so that is a very significant part of why someone comes to Christ and believes in Him. God when He wishes, is not limited by the circumstances He places around us, He has total free will to do whatever He willith with all of His creation.

We though are bound to our sin nature due to original sin, and we are simply that natural-carnal man that won't be obedient to the gospel, subject to the commandments of God, indeed we can not believe in Christ unless God grants and enables us to do so, John 6:65. He accomplishes that by making us born again with a fresh start and a spiritually alive nature that can hear and believe in Him.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If you live according to the Spirit, that means God has made you alive by making you born again. You can clearly see that truth by what verse 9 says, such persons are not in the flesh anymore but in the Spirit because God made them live according to His Spirit. So they are no longer dead and cold to God and spiritual things on the inside.

v7, the carnal natural mind is hostile to God and Christ and is not obedient to God's laws. The only way forward is to no longer be a carnal man but a spiritual man, and only God can make us spiritually alive. We can not do that, we can do nothing without Him, without His help. Otherwise we are the sons of disobedience, and at war against God and Christ and actually hate Him even if we are not aware of it, because we do not LOVE HIM. If you do not have His love, the love of God in you, you are not going to believe in His Son. If you are not for Him, then you are against Him.



John 5:41-43 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

Notice Jesus says if you do not have the love of God in you, Him (Christ) you will not receive as Lord, or God come in the flesh. Those that have that love of God inside of them, have it because God has made them born again.

 

[bling]

Jesus said all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, so that is a very significant part of why someone comes to Christ and believes in Him. God when He wishes, is not limited by the circumstances He places around us, He has total free will to do whatever He willith with all of His creation.

Did God limit Himself by saying he cannot lie, is Love, is faithful, is just, and so on? Did God define these words with examples (especially Christ) and scripture?

Yes! God has free will, but will He not always do what is absolutely the very best thing to do?

We though are bound to our sin nature due to original sin, and we are simply that natural-carnal man that won't be obedient to the gospel, subject to the commandments of God, indeed we can not believe in Christ unless God grants and enables us to do so, John 6:65. He accomplishes that by making us born again with a fresh start and a spiritually alive nature that can hear and believe in Him.

You are extrapolating what a verse says: John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” That does not say: “Everyone God enables goes to Jesus”. God have a huge part to play in people coming to Jesus, but God plays that part for every mature adult.

I am not saying: “Those who accept God’s charity are doing it out of: obedience to God, following God’s commands, or wanting to join God’s family”. Accepting God’s charity does not take any of that, it is done for selfish reason (like a prodigal son), because the person wimps out of their obligations as a sinner (paying the piper) and gives up the fight. At the point of surrendering God is still the enemy, but that does not mean the person is unwilling to accept pure charity from his enemy.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If you live according to the Spirit, that means God has made you alive by making you born again. You can clearly see that truth by what verse 9 says, such persons are not in the flesh anymore but in the Spirit because God made them live according to His Spirit. So they are no longer dead and cold to God and spiritual things on the inside.

v7, the carnal natural mind is hostile to God and Christ and is not obedient to God's laws. The only way forward is to no longer be a carnal man but a spiritual man, and only God can make us spiritually alive. We can not do that, we can do nothing without Him, without His help. Otherwise we are the sons of disobedience, and at war against God and Christ and actually hate Him even if we are not aware of it, because we do not LOVE HIM. If you do not have His love, the love of God in you, you are not going to believe in His Son. If you are not for Him, then you are against Him.

Right! A fleshly person responds out of selfish reasons (similar to the prodigal son) which are not righteous or worthy of anything. The person who surrenders to his enemy is still hostel to that enemy, because he should be tortured and killed for previous war crimes.

It is only after the person is willing to just humbly accept pure charity for selfish reasons God showers them with gifts and they can become Spiritual, righteous and justified.

John 5:41-43 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

Notice Jesus says if you do not have the love of God in you, Him (Christ) you will not receive as Lord, or God come in the flesh. Those that have that love of God inside of them, have it because God has made them born again.

Right! That Love comes after you are forgiven, but we are talking about the time before you are forgiven.

 

[sdowney717]

Did God limit Himself by saying he cannot lie, is Love, is faithful, is just, and so on? Did God define these words with examples (especially Christ) and scripture?

Yes! God has free will, but will He not always do what is absolutely the very best thing to do?


You are extrapolating what a verse says: John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” That does not say: “Everyone God enables goes to Jesus”. God have a huge part to play in people coming to Jesus, but God plays that part for every mature adult.

I am not saying: “Those who accept God’s charity are doing it out of: obedience to God, following God’s commands, or wanting to join God’s family”. Accepting God’s charity does not take any of that, it is done for selfish reason (like a prodigal son), because the person wimps out of their obligations as a sinner (paying the piper) and gives up the fight. At the point of surrendering God is still the enemy, but that does not mean the person is unwilling to accept pure charity from his enemy.

Right! A fleshly person responds out of selfish reasons (similar to the prodigal son) which are not righteous or worthy of anything. The person who surrenders to his enemy is still hostel to that enemy, because he should be tortured and killed for previous war crimes.

It is only after the person is willing to just humbly accept pure charity for selfish reasons God showers them with gifts and they can become Spiritual, righteous and justified.


Right! That Love comes after you are forgiven, but we are talking about the time before you are forgiven.

Not extrapolating, if you read the context of what Christ says earlier about why people come to Christ, it is because all that the Father gives Him comes to Him. So if He has granted-enabled you come to the Son, that means without any doubts, you will come to Christ eventually in His perfect timing for you.