The problem with protestantism...division

[salamacum]

David Hilborn stated in an Evangelical Alliance paper about the Toronto Blessing that:
[FONT=&quot]"More often than not, crisis is born of contention, and for better or worse, Evangelicalism is a naturally contentious movement. Once the Protestant Reformers determined to promote the authority of ‘Scripture alone’ over the magisterium of the Church, the resultant prerogative of interpretation led, almost[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]inevitably, to divergence, tension and fissure. The whole ethos of Protestantism – its theological basis, the behavioural patterns it inculcates, its attitudinal emphasis and its authority structure – make it inherently liable to schism and fragmentation. It has a built-in tendency to be centrifugal rather than centripetal … By its very nature it encourages individuality, stresses personal faith and promotes distinctive individual or group expressions of faith and practice. Such characteristics ensure a large measure of personal and corporate creativity; but they almost[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]guarantee divisiveness …

What do you think?

Is it avoidable? How?
[/FONT]

 

[kql314]

Interesting post and paper.
I would agree. I wrote an article about this topic several months ago in a Christian magazine.
Do some research- how many Protestant denominations are there in the USA, or in the world? It is crazy, and sad.
Which denomination is "right"? Does that mean that the rest are wrong?

The other extreme is the RC church whi is trying to hold onto various factions within the RC that have their own whims and wants.

You just can't have 2 billion Christians agree on everything; there is a lot to be determined by interpretation.
-Ken

 

[hedrick]

In principal the confessional churches aren't so individualistic. And historically the Lutheran and Reformed churches haven't split as much, have sometimes reunited, and even when they remained separate, had similar doctrinal positions. The main issues within the two communities today are the liberal/conservative split over Scriptural inerrancy, sexuality, and gender.

However there's a big question how much God cares about doctrines. I'd argue that things that aren't clear in Scripture are in fact not a big concern with God. It's important to understand in some sense that God isn't a pure monad. I think we're committed to something like the Trinity,but not necessarily three Personad with one substance. Similarly, we're committed to Christ as showing us God in human form. But the specific doctrinal statements are what we argue about, and while I think they're good-faith attempts at expressing the truth of Christinaity in philosophical terms, I don't see that accepting them is essential to being a Christian.

If you take the basic unit of the Church as the congregation, which seems to be the case in the NT, and see denominations as ways to provide services not practical for individual churches, and to maintain accountability, then the existence of multiple denominations isn't such an issue. I'm a member of the PCUSA, which is a confessional church. I think our confessional tradition is valuable, and I accept our confessions as good attempts at understanding God. But I don't claim that Scripture would unambiguously point you to everything in the confessions. It's hard to be a generic Christian. You need more specific understanding to guide decisions. But as long as we take a generous view of other traditions, having more than one isn't always a bad thing. I value the other Protestant traditions, such as the Lutherans and Wesleyians. I don't see a problem at all that they exist alongside the Reformed tradition.

 

[salamacum]

Thanks for these replies.
I'll kind of lay my cards on the table here.
And that is that I am heartily sick of the theological controversies that have beset me in a small or major way my last 30 years of a Christian.
And a main and concerning present temptation I have is that good PRAXIS even in non-Christians is starting to affect me more than is maybe healthy.
It was Gandhi who said that Christians talk a lot.

 

[Ezeretane]

ok i plead gulty!

i come from a church with a strong doctrine and recently i discovered that even in the same church we could have very,very,very different opinions aven on subject i was considering simple like :can we lose our salvation?
well i decide to organise a meeting and we talk about it ...we were all from different denominations and it was passionated but none got hurt
my point is something are very interesting to share but never to fight about
i really do like the Church as a universal body but i think that we need,I need to mature a lot to accept different point of view and try to understand them even if i won't agree with them
gandhi was right , Christians talk a lot and i do talk too much lol
but how can you learn and understand someone if you don't
there 's improvement to make but it's going to be ok with god 's help.
bless you

 

[religious&reasonable]

I don't see the problem with the devision, since it let's people explore alternate interpreatations which may or not be correct. Individuality is important.

 

[Ezeretane]

Individuality is important.

i don't agree
what is important is tolerance and be open minded but most of all mature in the way of listening to things even our own pastor :he 's a human being still sinning like us ...
individuality leads to selfishness and pride ...most of the time

 

[hedrick]

Thanks for these replies.
I'll kind of lay my cards on the table here.
And that is that I am heartily sick of the theological controversies that have beset me in a small or major way my last 30 years of a Christian.
And a main and concerning present temptation I have is that good PRAXIS even in non-Christians is starting to affect me more than is maybe healthy.
It was Gandhi who said that Christians talk a lot.

Interesting. My experience has been the reverse. I see lots of theological conflict in internet forums, some at national meetings of denominations, and none in any local church or actual church activities. The Christians I worship and serve with are doing their best to live Christians lives and raise Christian kids. Are you spending too much time here and too little with your church? Jesus' priorities agree with the ones you express here.

I'm still not convinced that non-Christians who serve good in the best they can are going to be in trouble. That doesn't mean that God counts brownie points, but that he accepts people as serving him who mean to serve the best that they know. But there still advantages to knowing the truth and serving God knowingly.

 

[LanceCohen]

Christians went from authority in the Pope to the bible, the latter being subject to human interpretation. Luther said, man is such that having fallen off the right side of the horse, he gets up, and promptly fell to the left side.

The is only one authority and that is God. But not many know God, even to subject themselves to this authority. Many more knew the bible instead, and love the bible and its doctrines more than God - and that is idolatry. For if they knew God, they would love God, and God's own. Satan knows God, but love himself more, and refuse to submit to God.

So all these divisions are nothing but evidence of lack of knowledge and fear of God and the lack of love, and it is not surprising, as they have already been prophesied in the letters to the seven churches in Revelations.

If we let God be, then the Church is God's and I am sure he is more concern about it than anyone even could. As for the true Christian, he simply loves his neighbor, all the time, without doctrine, without contention, in silence, unseen, unheard, even unknown.

And think about the ants. Each ant just do one thing, follow the pheromone trial. And when every ant does that, food are found, colonies grew and protected, amazing structure constructed, and becoming the most numerous species and the largest colonies on earth. I think this is why the wise men told us to study the ants.

 

[salamacum]

Interesting. My experience has been the reverse. I see lots of theological conflict in internet forums, some at national meetings of denominations, and none in any local church or actual church activities. The Christians I worship and serve with are doing their best to live Christians lives and raise Christian kids. Are you spending too much time here and too little with your church? Jesus' priorities agree with the ones you express here.

I'm still not convinced that non-Christians who serve good in the best they can are going to be in trouble. That doesn't mean that God counts brownie points, but that he accepts people as serving him who mean to serve the best that they know. But there still advantages to knowing the truth and serving God knowingly.

Hello Hedrick,

Thanks for that.
Yes, it was within the church, not the internet. We had a loving tolerant pastor while every so often an event (internal or external) would cause a division. Theology was always given as the reason, but I believe often it was a gripe.
We split over the Toronto Blessing for example.
At the moment I am quite cynical. I see Christians in my church being quite irrationally eclectic. They have the ability to like two pundits at the same time who wouldn't be seen in the same room together.
Again not the pastor - he's been there, done that, got the tea-shirt. And it shows in his preaching and demeanor. You can't raise him or impress him with anything.
Is that where I will end up?

 

[Ezeretane]

Many more knew the bible instead, and love the bible and its doctrines more than God - and that is idolatry. For if they knew God, they would love God, and God's own.

i can't agree with that :
John 1:1-2 (King James Version)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.


John 1:14 (King James Version)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


even if i do agree with most of the things you sais but this part needs to be balance

i think that by knowing the word better we know more who God is but the problem is that we need not to forget love and god is love all other things is nothing

then we can talk and have differents points of view without being superior or else
the bible and all in it is not a doctrine in itself but is a life , a life with different shapes but the same result



i think...

 

[LanceCohen]

... by knowing the word better we know more who God is ...

I rather think it is the other way around: you know God then you can recognized his Word and understand it, eg Balaam could not recognised his donkey's words as God's. And then there is of course the Word (the verses you quote above) and the word as was left in men after Babel.

 

[Ezeretane]

the word as was left in men after Babel.

i'm not sure to understand what you mean ?


actually i'm only talking about the Word here
because even if there are different interpretations or doctrine or else , i know that the holy spirit is mighty enough to talk to everyone of us personnally and in unity and as says the bible :it's the truth
but for me the only way not to make mistakes is to read it and let oneself be changed by it .

 

[salamacum]

i can't agree with that :
John 1:1-2 (King James Version)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.


John 1:14 (King James Version)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


even if i do agree with most of the things you sais but this part needs to be balance

i think that by knowing the word better we know more who God is but the problem is that we need not to forget love and god is love all other things is nothing

then we can talk and have differents points of view without being superior or else
the bible and all in it is not a doctrine in itself but is a life , a life with different shapes but the same result



i think...

Exactly - the above bible references demonstrates to me that Jesus is the Word. Propositional truth is derivative.

 

[dayhiker]

One of the aspects of God that I love is how much diversity of life He has created. While humans have a pretty narrow range of diversity compared to the whole of creation, we still have quite a diversity in interests and views on life.

So I see the different churches as providing a place where people can worship and love God the way that works for them best. God must like diversity since He created the universe with so much and so I think God likes the different expression of how we love Him.

I see this tieing in with what paul says about we all aren't a ear but all parts of the body are needed.

 

[salamacum]

Anybody agree with me that the practice of phariseeism is still with us? After all, there is nothing new under the sun.
The pharisees' big mistake was to try to create a system which had all the answers and they bound up their followers in legalism.
Notwithstanding that within the pharisees there were interpretative groups often verbally and physically antagonistic to each other.

Do we see anything similar to this in protestantism?

 

[Dark_Lite]

One of the aspects of God that I love is how much diversity of life He has created. While humans have a pretty narrow range of diversity compared to the whole of creation, we still have quite a diversity in interests and views on life.

So I see the different churches as providing a place where people can worship and love God the way that works for them best. God must like diversity since He created the universe with so much and so I think God likes the different expression of how we love Him.

I see this tieing in with what paul says about we all aren't a ear but all parts of the body are needed.

The vast diversity in Christian doctrine cannot really be likened to the diversity of life. On Earth, organisms all have purposes in the environment. The ecosystem works because of the organisms present in it. Doctrinal division does not accomplish that in Christianity. All it does is create division and arguments. In the past, it also created violence.

Particular ministries and worship styles can emphasize different aspects of religion to different people to fulfill their needs. There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. There is not one (or sometimes two or three) Lord(s), thousands of variations on the faith, and as many baptisms as one feels are necessary. It is very possible to have diversity of style without having diversity of belief, and it is diversity of style that we should aim for.

Anybody agree with me that the practice of phariseeism is still with us? After all, there is nothing new under the sun.
The pharisees' big mistake was to try to create a system which had all the answers and they bound up their followers in legalism.
Notwithstanding that within the pharisees there were interpretative groups often verbally and physically antagonistic to each other.

Do we see anything similar to this in protestantism?

The Pharisees' mistake was not trying to create a system that had all the answers. It was failure to recognize the true authority (God/Christ) and refusal to let go of their false traditions and get with the times (Jesus).

 

[salamacum]

?< < The Pharisees' mistake was not trying to create a system that had all the answers > >

Do you think that as a Christian it is possible to have all the answers (in the way that the pharisees or the Sharia aims to have)

 

[Ezeretane]

?< < The Pharisees' mistake was not trying to create a system that had all the answers > >

Do you think that as a Christian it is possible to have all the answers (in the way that the pharisees or the Sharia aims to have)

i think that that kind of behaviour create problems between christians and with non believers too!
the exemple of the pharasees was told in the bibole to show us what not to be like ! but they were humans being as we are too
we can't have all the answer because the bble doesn't give them
could you imagine the almgthy god resume in a book of thousand pages?
I think the bible helps to catch a part of god and how to know him better in our world and at our level
but we still need to be guided by the holy spirit to understand more, knowing that the entire truth wll only be revealed at the end like any good film
so the answer to your question for me is :no but sometimes we forget that being born again doesn't mean being perfect or knowng t all , we do need to humble ourselves ,look at the bible and try to do the opposite of bad exemples and be more like jesus

 

[Dark_Lite]

?< < The Pharisees' mistake was not trying to create a system that had all the answers > >

Do you think that as a Christian it is possible to have all the answers (in the way that the pharisees or the Sharia aims to have)

Christianity is a system that claims absolute truth. So, yes.