An explanation or description of legalism would be nice to have and be shared by all Christians.Legalism lacks the supreme sense of worship.
It obeys but does not adore.
Geerhardus Vos
Any spiritual concept is difficult to explain and understand.I still notice that your completely ignoring the fact that overcoming sin, our power over sin, is GOD's work in our lives..
We have to stop trying and simply rest in God's Spirit in order to overcome sin, because when we try, when we do the work apart from God we can't do it, we fail. Overcoming sin through the power of God is something active, an action, but it's His action.
Overcoming sin isn't us doing, its us giving our lives, our sin, over to God, and resting in His finished work, His victory over sin for power over our own sin. That is how newly believing addicts change their lives when they are saved, that is how sin and the things of this world are overcome...it's not by stopping doing so much as it's by handing over... it's not our work its His.
It's a very difficult concept to understand apart from the experience of it, but it's necessary to learn or your own walk will be wrought with failure after failure.
Obedience is right, good, and necessary. But Jesus said that we'll obey Him if we love Him. And that must be the key. True human obedience and righteousness come only to the extent that we love, and love comes to the extent that we remain in communion with God.An explanation or description of legalism would be nice to have and be shared by all Christians.
I don't consider myself to be a legalist, but am often called that because I believe in obeying Jesus and what He taught.
Seems like obedience has become legalism...
As many times as you have made this argument you've never answered the obvious question, what are Christs commandment in the Upper Room discourse? I'll give you a clue, its called the 'royal law' in James 2. Come on Jason, I know you got it in you.
Secondly, you're absolutely right that some will try to turn the grace of God into a license to sin (aka licensiousness) at the other end are the whitewash pretenders who on the poutside look sanctified but inside are dead mens bones. In Aristotle' Ethics he describes virture is the balance between two extremes, excess and deficiency. He illustrate the principle with a scene from the Odysee. Ulysis is the captain and the ship is passing through a narrow straight, on the one side are rocks, on the other wind and treacherous waves. He calls to the helmnsman, 'm'mind the wind and waves'. Does it matter if you hit the rocks of licentiousness or capsize in the choppy waters of legalism, they are equally tradgic and spiritually deadly.
Finally, Jesus isnt telling them, hey guy dont lie, cheat, becoome drunks or consort with hookers, these guys knew that.
Just answer the question Jason, what was Jesus commandment?
Yes. We are justified (made righteous) by faith alone.Do you believe that Jesus pays for your present and future sins by just having a belief alone?
Right.Obedience is right, good, and necessary. But Jesus said that we'll obey Him if we love Him. And that must be the key. True human obedience and righteousness come only to the extent that we love, and love comes to the extent that we remain in communion with God.
Obedience isn’t legalism. Obedience with the thought that it somehow affects your standing with God is legalism. That’s slavery. That’s not freedom.An explanation or description of legalism would be nice to have and be shared by all Christians.
I don't consider myself to be a legalist, but am often called that because I believe in obeying Jesus and what He taught.
Seems like obedience has become legalism...
How could NOT obeying not have a negative effect on my standing with God?Obedience isn’t legalism. Obedience with the thought that it somehow affects your standing with God is legalism. That’s slavery. That’s not freedom.
Yes. We are justified (made righteous) by faith alone.
Hi Jason,James says otherwise.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24) (KJV).
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(James 2:24) (ESV).
Funny. How the only time the words "faith only" (or faith alone") appears in our Bible it is in reference to how we are justified (saved) also by works. Why? Because works shows whether or not a person's faith is true. Works are the outward show of a true faith.
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).
So works show a person's faith.
James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
Surely not. So one needs works that shows a person's faith is true.
Before you said something along the lines that a believer who continues in disobedience is not saved. This means salvation is not by faith or a belief alone. So which is it?
Most are confused on this topic because they do not want to see that Ephesians 2 is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism and James 2 is trying to refute Belief Alone Salvationism. For if you truly believe in Belief Alone Salvationism, then no works or no amount of holiness or no amount of love should effect your standing with God. You will always be once saved always saved no matter what. But if God's grace is not a license for sin or immorality, then we do have to do good works and live holy in this life as a part of our faith.
Surely, you must realize there is a difference between the Bible mentioning:
(a) Works of faith (vs.).
(b) Works of the Law (i.e. works of the Law of Moses, which was sometimes mentioned in reference to "Circumcision Salvationism.").
Well, there's the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1&16). While faith is a gift, it's one we can still refuse. In any case I have no problem at all with the word "must". Of course man is obligated to obedience, beginning with Adam whose first sin was essentially an act of disobedience. That was an act of Adam's will, and God has been working ever since to draw man into willing obedience, without force. And the way this happens, as we're drawn to desire it ourselves, is that we learn the why and how to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is how authentic obedience comes, and God's patient and kind in working to get us there. Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way:Right.
And how does one obey someone they don't love or at least respect?
So, I fail to see the discrepancy when I state we must obey God. It's that word "must" that some take exception to.
Doesn't God DEMAND obedience?
(not that we always will succeed)
Obedience isn’t legalism. Obedience with the thought that it somehow affects your standing with God is legalism. That’s slavery. That’s not freedom.
Any spiritual concept is difficult to explain and understand.
I do want to comment that I understand what you mean by the above and I do agree. It's always the Holy Spirit helping us to avoid sin. However, I see a tendency these days to attribute everything to God, as if He were by our side making our moves for us and moving our lips for us.
This would mean, if taken to its logical conclusion, that God is responsible for our sin when we DO sin.
It's not so much the concept I have a problem with but the language. The Holy Spirit is our paraclete...WE are not his puppet. We make our own decisions. Our soul is affected by our spirit, but the spirit does not COMMAND the soul...it just helps to not let it lean toward sin...which is the sin nature and now we have a new nature in God, so we will tend to not WANT to sin. But can we say it's God not letting us sin?
Agreed to all.Well, there's the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1&16). While faith is a gift, it's one we can still refuse. In any case I have no problem at all with the word "must". Of course man is obligated to obedience, beginning with Adam whose first sin was essentially an act of disobedience. That was an act of Adam's will, and God has been working ever since to draw man into willing obedience, without force. And the way this happens, as we're drawn to desire it ourselves, is that we learn the why and how to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is how authentic obedience comes, and God's patient and kind in working to get us there. Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
Hi Jason,
I agree with all of the above except I think we need to start using two different words here.
Justification is by faith alone. It's a one time occurrence when a person decides to serve God. At that moment God declares that person justified...accepted into the family of God.
Sanctification is show by works...we live a life pleasing to God and do what we can to further the Kingdom of God. This is a life-long process.
So you stated:
see that Ephesians 2 is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism and James 2 is trying to refute Belief Alone
And that is correct.
Ephesians 2:8 is Justification, only belief saves
James 2 is sanctification, belief alone is not sufficient to save.
It has an affect with the relationship. It just doesn’t have an affect with our standing. The regenerate are children of God. Period.How could NOT obeying not have a negative effect on my standing with God?
Jesus said If we love Him we will obey Him,,,so if we DO NOT obey Him, it would mean we don't love Him.
Obedience has a definite effect on our relationship with God...
John 15:21
John 15:23
John 15:24
I know you’ve been shown how your understand of James is woefully incorrect. So I don’t need to go into here.James says otherwise.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24) (KJV).
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(James 2:24) (ESV).
Funny. How the only time the words "faith only" (or faith alone") appears in our Bible it is in reference to how we are justified (saved) also by works. Why? Because works shows whether or not a person's faith is true. Works are the outward show of a true faith.
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).
So works show a person's faith.
James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
Surely not. So one needs works that shows a person's faith is true.
Before you said something along the lines that a believer who continues in disobedience is not saved. This means salvation is not by faith or a belief alone. So which is it?
Most are confused on this topic because they do not want to see that Ephesians 2 is trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism and James 2 is trying to refute Belief Alone Salvationism. For if you truly believe in Belief Alone Salvationism, then no amount of good works or no amount of holiness or no amount of love should effect your standing with God. You will always be once saved always saved no matter what. But if God's grace is not a license for sin or immorality, then we do have to do good works and live holy in this life as a part of our faith.
Surely, you must realize there is a difference between the Bible mentioning:
(a) Works of faith (vs.).
(b) Works of the Law (i.e. works of the Law of Moses, which was sometimes mentioned in reference to "Circumcision Salvationism.").
None of that makes your point. We are called to holy living. We should be obedient. But we will never stop being a child. The Shepherd loses none of His sheep.But that is not what the Scriptures teach, my friend.
The Bible is clear we have to obey as a part of having life, too. For...
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses):
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).
"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).
”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).
”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
We need God's revelation in order to be able to understand Him. OKNo, it's not the extreme your saying we are making it into.
However.. (You knew there was going to be a "but" didn't you?)
We can't understand God without God's own revelation, we cant obey God without God's help, and we can't desire God without Him changing our hearts.
While God is not responsible for our sin, He is wholly responsible for our salvation..
Do we have to desire our salvation? Yes.
Do we have to desire our will to be aligned to His Will? Yes. (We pray for it daily)
But its God Who gives us that desire.. God does even that work in us, it's why we have to pray even for that...
I think when it begins to feel like us working we stop giving credit where credit is due, and we stop doing the most important thing, hallowing God's Name.
As seen in this thread we have some seriously irreverent language going on just concerning God's work in our lives - as if it's meaningless, and that happens when "we" see ourselves as the one's doing the work
In Leviticus 22:31-32 we see God tell us:
"So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the Lord. And you shall not profane my holy name, but I will be hallowed among the people of Israel; I am the Lord who sanctify you."
The last part is all too important - its not us. It's Him.
OKI agree with that.
We first come to God without works by faith and trust in Jesus as our Savior.
We cannot put the cart before the horse (like the Pharisees were trying to do).
But I also see Justification as continuing through out our life.
We have to of course always continue to believe in Jesus as our Savior by faith, too. We also have to confess sin (Which generally should be in the early walk of a believer's life before they mature and walk uprightly with the Lord) in order to be forgiven, i.e. God's grace, or Justification.
I would like to show verses on this later, but I have to run at the moment.
May God's love shine upon you this fine day, sister.
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