The problem with legalism

[Hammster]

James 2:24 says,
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Context, context, context.

But it will be wasted on you to try to explain, because I’m sure it has been already.

 

[Hammster]

I believe all three members of the Godhead or Trinity work in the believer to do good.
But we are not robots or puppets to God's will. While we do have a new nature and God living in us, we still have to cooperate with God and obey His commandments in the New Testament (after coming to His saving grace by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ).

So then your answer is you AND God?

 

[klutedavid]

Only if they repent (seek the Lord’s forgiveness), and forsake their evil ways.
They cannot continue to be an axe murdering rapist their whole lives and say the believe on Jesus and still be saved.



When a person says "grace", do they mean...

(a) Seeking forgiveness of their sins and finding mercy so as to walk uprightly by obeying God's commands?

(b) They are not under any penalty of any kind of Law whatsoever and therefore they do not have to worry about obeying God's laws so much or worry about how sin can destroy their soul?​

For if Law Alone Salvationism (without God's grace) was the focus then.... Yes; that would be wrong and that person would need God's grace by faith first. But Laws are not in conflict with God's grace through faith. Not at all. God's grace and works go hand in hand. Just read 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9. For the very purpose or reason Christ died for us was to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27) and zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). When a person in my mind says "Legalism" is bad it makes me think that they are finding a way to say that taking God's laws do not play a part in the salvation process or that they can turn God's grace into a license for immorality. Yes, there is an extreme form of Legalism like Law Alone Salvationism or taking a Law beyond what it was intended to the extreme whereby it hurts others (Thereby violating the greatest two commandments).

I understand some dictionaries say about the word legalism, but this is one of those cases where the word does not actually make any sense in what it says. The definition should be excessive legalism or ultra legalism. Obeying God alone is a part of the faith. When we have faith that is a part of God's commands. When we love, that is a part of God's commands. When we repent and receive grace, that is a part of God's commands. Yes, there may be times we may faulter or stumble on rare occasion in our early walk with God, but that is why 1 John 1:9 says we can confess our sins. Confessing of sins is just another way of saying.... "repent." God commands all men everywhere to repent. There it is again. God's laws. Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (See 1 John 3:23). Yes, there are exceptions to certain laws. There always was. That does not mean we are not upholding God's laws. Paul says he establishes the Law. Granted, primarily speaking, we are not under the contract of the Old Covenant as a whole but the New Covenant contract. So the commands we follow are primarily from the New Testament and not the Old Testament; For the Law has changed.

You said the following.

Yes, there may be times we may faulter or stumble on rare occasion in our early walk with God

That has not been my experience in Christianity.

You stumbled only in your early years with God?

You must be under a powerful delusion.

Everyday I struggle to put to death the deeds of the flesh, a constant struggle. I don't even think that I have ever been able to shutdown, all the sin that inhabits my flesh.

If I quench the desires of my flesh to some degree, then I become the most self righteous person on the planet.

I conclude, that as you age as a Christian, you only ever, become more conscious of the depth of your own sin. When I look in the mirror, all I see is the most selfish person that God has ever created. I judge people, I don't love people.

I will never achieve any real victory over sin, rather, my victory can only be in Christ's victory.

 

[redleghunter]

If I quench the desires of my flesh to some degree, then I become the most self righteous person on the planet.

The more that is quenched the more surfaces (is identified) as the Holy Spirit works in us.

 

[redleghunter]

Context, context, context.

But it will be wasted on you to try to explain, because I’m sure it has been already.

 

[klutedavid]

If someone refuses to repent of a particular sin but still has "faith" is he still regenerate?

Show me someone who is free from sin, repentant, then I will agree with you.

Is there anyone out there who loves others, to their own detriment, to their own loss?

 

[klutedavid]

The more that is quenched the more surfaces (is identified) as the Holy Spirit works in us.

But that is the complete antithesis of repentance.

The more you repent the worse your sin becomes?

 

[klutedavid]

I believe all three members of the Godhead or Trinity work in the believer to do good.
But we are not robots or puppets to God's will. While we do have a new nature and God living in us, we still have to cooperate with God and obey His commandments in the New Testament (after coming to His saving grace by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ).

Which commandments are you talking about?

The gift of loving others or self obsessed, legal obedience?

 

[redleghunter]

But that is the complete antithesis of repentance.

The more you repent the worse your sin becomes?

The more we walk in the Spirit the more is cleaned out is what I mentioned. We are more conscious of the flesh.

I was agreeing with this:

I conclude, that as you age as a Christian, you only ever, become more conscious of the depth of your own sin.

 

[FireDragon76]

Only if they repent (seek the Lord’s forgiveness), and forsake their evil ways.
They cannot continue to be an axe murdering rapist their whole lives and say the believe on Jesus and still be saved.



When a person says "grace", do they mean...

(a) Seeking forgiveness of their sins and finding mercy so as to walk uprightly by obeying God's commands?

(b) They are not under any penalty of any kind of Law whatsoever and therefore they do not have to worry about obeying God's laws so much or worry about how sin can destroy their soul?​

Christians are not necessarily under the penalty of the law. Our justification with God is not dependent on our "walking uprightly" or our obedience. That suggests a religious ethic that is at odds with the humanistic tone of classical Protestant ethics. Christ has fulfilled all religious obligations for us, the benefits of which we receive through faith: our lives as Christians should simply be to be decent and compassionate human beings to one another, following the example Christ and the saints have left us.

In Lutheran and Reformed theology, repentance is not a condition for justification. Repentance is the inner work of the Holy Spirit that gives us true love for God and our neighbor, not a new law imposed on us.

 

[Invalidusername]

Regeneration.

Biblically repentance always comes first.

 

[Hammster]

Biblically repentance always comes first.

Never. If someone had a heart of stone, why would they repent? And if they would repent, why would they need a new heart?

No, before one can see or enter the kingdom of God, they must be born again.

 

[Invalidusername]

Never. If someone had a heart of stone, why would they repent? And if they would repent, why would they need a new heart?

No, before one can see or enter the kingdom of God, they must be born again.

God does not give you a heart of flesh without your consent. You must consent to it via repentance. A change of mind. Holy Spirit convicts you and then you change your mind. THEN you are born again. Regeneration doesn't just happen by you walking down the street and BAM regenerated! You must hear the word of God, consent to the fact you are sinful, repent of it, and accept the payment... THEN God sends the Holy Spirit into you and the regeneration begins.

If you think people are walking around Manhattan getting regenerated instantly with a zap with no repentance then you are sorely mistaken.

 

[klutedavid]

God does not give you a heart of flesh without your consent. You must consent to it via repentance. A change of mind. Holy Spirit convicts you and then you change your mind. THEN you are born again. Regeneration doesn't just happen by you walking down the street and BAM regenerated! You must hear the word of God, consent to the fact you are sinful, repent of it, and accept the payment... THEN God sends the Holy Spirit into you and the regeneration begins.

If you think people are walking around Manhattan getting regenerated instantly with a zap with no repentance then you are sorely mistaken.

I knew two different young girls who became Christians, neither girl, had any conviction of sinfulness or repentance. They were too young to even realize what sin was. It took years for them to realize that they were indeed sinful.

They were saved, washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, your saying that a person must hear the gospel, then repent, in order to receive the Holy Spirit. These two young girls cannot be Christians under your teaching because they had not repented.

This is the exact opposite of what actually happens in the real world of Christianity.

The truth is what I have observed in many churches over a very long time. People years after they become Christians, begin to see their own sin for what it is. They become much more aware of their own sin, and start to slowly lean, more and more, on the grace of God.

I don't think I have ever heard an old Christian, boasting in the righteous purity of their own works. Never, ever, have I ever heard that from really old Christian folk. Because they know better, they had to learn the lesson the hard way.

Repentance is not abstaining from stealing and murdering. Real repentance is bearing the Christian fruit, which requires a death to self.

Not stealing something is something that even non Christians can do. Loving someone at a cost to yourself, is something that non Christians cannot do as a lifestyle. Simply because they are self obsessed!

 

[redleghunter]

God does not give you a heart of flesh without your consent. You must consent to it via repentance. A change of mind. Holy Spirit convicts you and then you change your mind. THEN you are born again. Regeneration doesn't just happen by you walking down the street and BAM regenerated! You must hear the word of God, consent to the fact you are sinful, repent of it, and accept the payment... THEN God sends the Holy Spirit into you and the regeneration begins.

If you think people are walking around Manhattan getting regenerated instantly with a zap with no repentance then you are sorely mistaken.

In Ephesians 2 we see we are dead until God makes us alive:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Hammster]

God does not give you a heart of flesh without your consent. You must consent to it via repentance. A change of mind. Holy Spirit convicts you and then you change your mind. THEN you are born again. Regeneration doesn't just happen by you walking down the street and BAM regenerated! You must hear the word of God, consent to the fact you are sinful, repent of it, and accept the payment... THEN God sends the Holy Spirit into you and the regeneration begins.

If you think people are walking around Manhattan getting regenerated instantly with a zap with no repentance then you are sorely mistaken.

Well, that’s not what I think.

 

[mark kennedy]

Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

This was said not as a point in how we cannot keep God's commands, but it was said as a part of forsaking things within possessing everlasting life. Just read the end of the chapter. The disciples were able to do this. They forsaked all to follow Jesus.

Then we read in Luke 19:1-10 about Zacchaeus. When he said to Jesus that he was willing to give away half of his goods, Jesus said salvation had come to his house.

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So obviously Jesus wants us to keep His commandments as a part of loving Him. In fact, Jesus says that by keeping His commandments we will abide in His love (John 15:10). Do you keep His commandments and abide in His love? Could not teaching this to others or promoting these words of Jesus be taken as legalism? Granted, we are not saved by Law Alone. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But after coming to God's grace, His grace is not a license to sin. We actually do have to be servants to Jesus Christ and not servants to ourselves and or our sin (on some level). For when I hear the phrase "legalism" or a "to do list" as being wrong, basically they are disagreeing with one half of what the Bible actually teaches because God has many commands for us to obey as a part of eternal life.

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Revelation 22:14-15).

As many times as you have made this argument you've never answered the obvious question, what are Christs command in the Upper Room discourse? I'll give you a clue, its called the 'royal law' in James 2. Come on Jason, I know you got it in you.

Secondly, you're absolutely right that some will try to turn the grace of God into a license to sin (aka licensiousness) at the other end are the whitewash pretenders who on the poutside look sanctified but inside are dead mens bones. In Aristotles' Ethics he describes virture is the balance between two extremes, excess and deficiency. He illustrate the principle with a scene from the Odysee. Ulysis is the captain and the ship is passing through a narrow straight, on the one side are rocks, on the other wind and treacherous waves. He calls to the helmnsman, 'mind the wind and waves'. Does it matter if you hit the rocks of licentiousness or capsize in the choppy waters of legalism, they are equally tradgic and spiritually deadly.

Finally, Jesus isnt telling them, hey guy dont lie, cheat, becoome drunks or consort with hookers, these guys knew that.

Just answer the question Jason, what was Jesus commandment?

 

[Invalidusername]

I knew two different young girls who became Christians, neither girl, had any conviction of sinfulness or repentance. They were too young to even realize what sin was. It took years for them to realize that they were indeed sinful.

They were saved, washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, your saying that a person must hear the gospel, then repent, in order to receive the Holy Spirit. These two young girls cannot be Christians under your teaching because they had not repented.

This is the exact opposite of what actually happens in the real world of Christianity.

The truth is what I have observed in many churches over a very long time. People years after they become Christians, begin to see their own sin for what it is. They become much more aware of their own sin, and start to slowly lean, more and more, on the grace of God.

I don't think I have ever heard an old Christian, boasting in the righteous purity of their own works. Never, ever, have I ever heard that from really old Christian folk. Because they know better, they had to learn the lesson the hard way.

Repentance is not abstaining from stealing and murdering. Real repentance is bearing the Christian fruit, which requires a death to self.

Not stealing something is something that even non Christians can do. Loving someone at a cost to yourself, is something that non Christians cannot do as a lifestyle. Simply because they are self obsessed!

Okay so I became "saved" at age 13 when I "asked Jesus to come into my heart". Well I fell into all kinds of sins and then really genuinely understood my sin for what it was and repented at age 17 and then believed on the Son. I then experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and at that moment I KNEW I was saved and that I was never saved when I thought I was. I experienced a transformation that changed my nature and I loved it. Then I fell away again into sin several years later and now it's almost impossible for me to come back since I was truly born again and fell away. Sin and salvation are interlinked and you cannot have both.

I don't believe you can be saved without understanding why you need Jesus. Believing in Him or "asking him to come into your heart" isn't enough. Saying some salvation prayer isn't how you get saved. It's an understanding granted by the Holy Spirit that causes a transformation and repentance.

Well, that’s not what I think.

You clearly do since you think someone can just say "Jesus I love ya! Come in my heart!" and that's it! They're saved! It's not that simple.

In Ephesians 2 we see we are dead until God makes us alive:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Yes but He made us alive after repentance. Not before. You don't just say a prayer and "ask Him in your heart" and be saved. It requires an understanding of your sin and the desire to be delivered from it.

 

[St. Helens]

We have a new nature.

And that new nature effects how we behave. A redeemed person would not be an axe murdering rapist because it would not be in their nature. God has given the redeemed a new nature.

 

[Soyeong]

Legalism lacks the supreme sense of worship.

It obeys but does not adore.

Geerhardus Vos

The distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law (also known as legalism) is reflected in modern discussions of law enforcement and is not in regard to following different sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which someone obeys the laws with respect to the intention behind them. For example:

Leviticus 19:12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

Someone who was focused on obeying the spirit of this law would understand that its intent is for us not to swear falsely, whereas someone who was focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly how it was written would understand that we can swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name, which incidentally is the heart of what Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for doing in Matthew 23:16-22.

However, even if someone were outwardly obeying the Law correctly, they can still miss its inward intent. Paul said that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), which means that it has always been intended to instruct deeper spiritual principles by which to live by, of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are the character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness, (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:21-22). There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in His ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Joshua 22:5, Isaiah 2:2-3, and Psalms 103:7), so again it about teaching us to express God's character traits and to thereby how to grow in a relationship with Him. As such, obeying the Law according to the letter leads to death just as assuredly as refusing to submit to it because it undermines its intent both in regard to what it is teaching us to do and why it is teaching us to do it.