The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

[Gadarene]

Okay.

Is this the one? https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

Because it says:

• Nearly 1 in 5 (18.3%) women and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives.

Why do you think that the only statistic that matters in instances where men are the victims are the ones in which they are made to penetrate someone else?

Well, because it's rape, it's more common usually than men being raped by penetration, and when you actually include those figures you notice that for that year, e.g., there was *parity* in rape of women and made-to-penetrate cases involving male victims. I.e. rape had gender parity. And that year's survey also notes that women are the predominant rapists of men.

Approximately 1 in 71 men in the United States (1.4%) reported having been raped in his lifetime, which translates to almost 1.6 million men in the United States (Table 2.2).

Yes, it does say that only 4.8% of men were made to penetrate someone, but like I said before, are you really claiming that this is the only way a man can be raped?

No, but I'm claiming it is rape, which means the 1in 71 stat you uncritically quoted is therefore way too low.

 

[Kylie]

I explored the statistics a bit, and it seems to me that Canada has 16 x lower rape rate than the US in 2010. Which would mean about 1 in 64 in Canada. Can this be right? Are there some legal system differencies that could cause it?

Finland had that year about half the rape rate of the US, which is still high for a EU country.

I suspect it is a culture in which women are treated as objects rather than people and demeaned whenever they try to stand up for themselves. How often do we hear of women being threatened with rape and murder for professing a viewpoint that differs from that of men?

Here in Australia, the deputy leader of the Labor Part Tanya Plibersek was a Women's officer when she attended university. And in that position, she was threatened with rape. She campaigned against sexual assault and in return was threatened with sexual assault. http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-rape-at-university-20160823-gqyy8h.html

If it is to change, we must change the culture. We must create a society in which the idea of committing a rape is as repugnant as the idea of eating fecal matter.

 

[Kylie]

K. It's not an excuse.

Excuse me? When the vast majority of women face the exact same thing as me and even worse things than I have faced, and we point out the things we face and the unfortunate things we have to do to protect ourselves, you think it's not an excuse?

Can we say "male privilege"?

 

[Kylie]

Not really, you reify one stereotype, then there is nothing stopping you doing so with another. That you do not only demonstrates the hypocrisy of this misandrist stance of profiling men simply because they are men and a tiny handful of them commit crimes.

90% of rapes are committed by men. Are 90% of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims? Are 90% of thefts committed by black people?

 

[Jack of Spades]

How often do we hear of women being threatened with rape and murder for professing a viewpoint that differs from that of men?

Okay, so there are some opinions that are held by men, as a result of their male sex?

What would those opinions be?

And what would be the conclusion if my opinions differed from "opinions of men", would that mean:

A) I'm not a man.
or
B) Those said opinions need better definition than "opinions of men"?

 

[Dave-W]

If the man is being forced to penetrate someone, then he is a victim.

I agree with that.

If a person is forced to engage in sexual activity when they do not want to be involved in that sexual activity, then they are the victim of rape.

Not necessarily so. The definition of the word "rape" involves penetration on the part of the assailant.

They are a victim, but NOT of rape if there is no penetration by the perp. I am not sure what it is called in various jurisdictions but in Michigan it is called "Criminal Sexual Conduct."

By your reasoning, if a woman was to drug a man, stimulate him so he gets an erection while unconscious, then straddle him so he penetrates her, then he is a rapist, despite having been unconscious the entire time!

It boils down to what the word "rape" means. It is from the name of the sword the Rapier. (often used for fencing duels) Originally to be raped was to be run thru by the sword.

You (or me or anyone else for that matter) cannot just assign some other definition to a word and run with it.

In your case the man is a victim of Criminal Sexual Conduct, not rape.

 

[Paidiske]

Okay, so there are some opinions that are held by men, as a result of their male sex?

What would those opinions be?

And what would be the conclusion if my opinions differed from "opinions of men", would that mean:

A) I'm not a man.
or
B) Those said opinions need better definition than "opinions of men"?

I think perhaps you misunderstood what KTS was saying. It is very very common for women in the public sphere to be threatened with rape by men who disagree with them. It is particularly common online (for example, as we saw in gamergate, or the predictable responses to women who are vocal in the pursuit of social justice - Clementine Ford comes to mind but I don't know how well known she is outside Australia).

So it's not opinions held by all men, more some men who then feel entitled to respond by threatening rape.

 

[Zoii]

I suspect it is a culture in which women are treated as objects rather than people and demeaned whenever they try to stand up for themselves. How often do we hear of women being threatened with rape and murder for professing a viewpoint that differs from that of men?

Here in Australia, the deputy leader of the Labor Part Tanya Plibersek was a Women's officer when she attended university. And in that position, she was threatened with rape. She campaigned against sexual assault and in return was threatened with sexual assault. http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-rape-at-university-20160823-gqyy8h.html

If it is to change, we must change the culture. We must create a society in which the idea of committing a rape is as repugnant as the idea of eating fecal matter.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics and the Australian Goverment Family Services website both have good stats that are worth checking. They state between 2014- 2015 there was an increase of 9% with almost 9000 reported cases and note that only 1 in 7 victims report. They state 97% of offenders are male. 85% of victims are female. 97% of male sexual assaults are by men, with victims largely being children. the largest percentage of victims are under 19 yoa. Stats will vary depending on the country but thats Australias according to the goverment website

 

[Armoured]

I think perhaps you misunderstood what KTS was saying. It is very very common for women in the public sphere to be threatened with rape by men who disagree with them. It is particularly common online (for example, as we saw in gamergate, or the predictable responses to women who are vocal in the pursuit of social justice - Clementine Ford comes to mind but I don't know how well known she is outside Australia).

So it's not opinions held by all men, more some men who then feel entitled to respond by threatening rape.

And this is a real problem. It's a mistake, though, to conflate "men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device" with "ALL men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device".

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think anyone's doing that, Armoured.

 

[Armoured]

The Australian Bureau of Statistics and the Australian Goverment Family Services website both have good stats that are worth checking. They state between 2014- 2015 there was an increase of 9% with almost 9000 reported cases and note that only 1 in 7 victjns report. They state 97% of offenders are male. 85% of victims are female. 97% of male sexual assaults are by men, with victims largely being children. the largest percentage of victims are under 19 yoa. Stats will vary depending on the country but thats Australias according to the goverment website

A word of caution on those stats, male:male rape, and female:male are tremendously under reported. Indeed, in many jurisdictions, females CAN'T legally rape a man. I have no doubt that women are the larger group, but I promise you the 97% stat is massively skewed, and the 85% one only slightly less so.

 

[Armoured]

I don't think anyone's doing that, Armoured.

Maybe not right now, but it's inherent in the thread title.

 

[Paidiske]

The one that starts with "The problem with..."? I don't think there is any single person who has contributed to this thread who holds the view that every man is a rapist just awaiting the right opportunity. We've all critiqued it from different points of view.

 

[Zoii]

A word of caution on those stats, male:male rape, and female:male re tremendously under reported. Indeed, in many jurisdictions, females CAN'T legally rape a man. I have no doubt that women are the larger group, but I promise you the 97% stat is massively skewed, and the 85% one only slightly less so.

Im just stating what our goverment says. If you believe its skewed well.... Im not sure what I can say except this is what is reported. I know Australia is attempting to collect the unreported stats...im guessing thats not very easy.

 

[Armoured]

Im just stating what our goverment says. If you believe its skewed well.... Im not sure what I can say except this is what is reported. I know Australia is attempting to collect the unreported stats...im guessing thats not very easy.

No it's not easy. And it will take a lot of social change before it is. I wasn't criticising your posting of the stats that we have. Just trying to broaden the perspective.

 

[Armoured]

The one that starts with "The problem with..."? I don't think there is any single person who has contributed to this thread who holds the view that every man is a rapist just awaiting the right opportunity. We've all critiqued it from different points of view.

As am I.

 

[Zoii]

A word of caution on those stats, male:male rape, and female:male are tremendously under reported. Indeed, in many jurisdictions, females CAN'T legally rape a man. I have no doubt that women are the larger group, but I promise you the 97% stat is massively skewed, and the 85% one only slightly less so.

Just another point about male rape. In Australia the largest percentage of male rape is of kids. There is a Royal Commission being held into these cases occurring in institutions. Some of the darkest people hid in full view and respect of the community

 

[Jack of Spades]

And this is a real problem. It's a mistake, though, to conflate "men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device" with "ALL men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device".

Do people get publicly threatened with rape there? Isn't that a crime in Australia?

I can't recall ever hearing in a live situation a man threatening to rape a woman, but I have couple of times witnessed a guy threatening to rape another guy. It's unlikely they meant it literally though.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, the threat of rape is common, and yes, it is a crime, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

There have been a number of high-profile cases of it recently. As I said, probably more common online/through social media than in person.

Is it meant literally? Probably not, most of the time. But the thing is, you never know...

 

[Jack of Spades]

Is it meant literally? Probably not, most of the time. But the thing is, you never know...

I didn't mean that the threat wasn't serious, but I meant it wasn't most likely literal. It's here sometimes used as a figurative expression for beating the other guy up.