The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

[ToddNotTodd]

I cant PROVE His existence but there is strong evidence for His existence. The BB theory combined with the law of causality, pretty much shows He exists.

‘Fraid not.

 

[Ken-1122]

True, as you were raised in a western society and were created in the image of the Christian God your morality is probably quite close to standard Christian morality which is the morality of all humanity.

In case you haven’t noticed, there is a huge discrepancy between Christian morals, and the morals of modern western society.

I cant PROVE His existence but there is strong evidence for His existence. The BB theory combined with the law of causality, pretty much shows He exists.

Right! And I can’t PROVE Santa’s existence, but there is strong evidence of his existence. Toys, Reindeer, combined with the existence of the North Pole pretty much shows he exists.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Okay so let me see if I’ve got this straight; you believe 2 million years ago during the Ice ages there was a world wide flood, and people built a wooden boat/ark to house all the animals, and all this is backed up by science?

No, the flood caused a perturbation in the earths rotation because of its great weight and that caused the ice age. Most scientists agree that ice ages are caused by perturbations in earths rotation, but they are not always sure what causes the perturbations. But I don't believe that all of the flood data has been proven by science and some of it may never be, because as I said earlier, one time historical events cannot be proven by science.

ken: Look if thats what you wanna believe, go ahead; I ain’t trying to take that away from you, but don’t expect anyone else to believe you.

Many people already DO believe these things. Though my dating of the flood at 2 million years is a minority view.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, the flood caused a perturbation in the earths rotation because of its great weight and that caused the ice age. Most scientists agree that ice ages are caused by perturbations in earths rotation, but they are not always sure what causes the perturbations. But I don't believe that all of the flood data has been proven by science and some of it may never be, because as I said earlier, one time historical events cannot be proven by science.

Weren't you claiming this bible stuff was backed up by science before? So now you are admitting it is not. Got it.

Many people already DO believe these things. Though my dating of the flood at 2 million years is a minority view.

In other words; your world wide flood claims are NOT backed up by science? Got it!

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Studies have shown that reduced supernova activity, less degradation of telomeres, and certain genes appear to activate certain specialized proteins that magnify the longevity enhancement of caloric restriction and consumption of anti-oxidants among other things.

ken: What scientific evidence shows this can happen in a way that results in people living for centuries?

We don't know for sure if all these things can result in centuries of life but they definitely can extend life but for how long, we don't know. But we do know that the reduced supernova activity occurred around the time of the first humans.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
It would not have had to stopped rotating, it could have just become gravitationally locked. And God could have prevented any ill effects.

ken: Gravitational lock would not prevent the Sun from setting.

Yes, it would, gravitational or tidal locking of planets or moons means the same face of the planet continuously faces the sun, or another planet. Which means the sun would not set. Google it.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Actually the great linguist Noam Chomsky believes that all languages are derived from an original prototypical language. Which is what would be expected if the Tower story was true.

ken: We now know building a tower to the clouds will not result in you getting into heaven; so why confuse the languages, when you could just let them fail!

That was not the primary concern for God. He was trying to make them disperse so they could fulfill His command to fill the earth and subdue it. He was also concerned that large cities have a tendency to increase and intensify evil, so by dispersing people, He also dispersed evil.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I disagree! Your thoughts don't come from your character, your thoughts come from your brain. If you are unable to think, you have no character, nothing; you are in a vegetative state. The way you think (thoughts) affects the way we behave; this behavior is what is often called our character.

Your character comes from the very essence of who you are ie your personality, then your personality of which your character is a part and affects your thoughts for either generally good or generally bad. Who you are is far more than just your brain.

 

[Ken-1122]

We don't know for sure if all these things can result in centuries of life but they definitely can extend life but for how long, we don't know. But we do know that the reduced supernova activity occurred around the time of the first humans.

In other words; you have no scientific proof of people living for centuries. Your argument fails.

Yes, it would, gravitational or tidal locking of planets or moons means the same face of the planet continuously faces the sun, or another planet. Which means the sun would not set. Google it.

Why don't you google if this is possible while the planet is still spinning! And while you're at it, google if there is scientific evidence of this happening. Again; your argument fails.

Your character comes from the very essence of who you are ie your personality, then your personality of which your character is a part and affects your thoughts for either generally good or generally bad. Who you are is far more than just your brain.

Brain damage can change your character, your personality, and all that you are. Why? Because all of that comes from the brain; not the other way around.

 

[FredVB]

In case you haven’t noticed, there is a huge discrepancy between Christian morals, and the morals of modern western society.
And I can’t PROVE Santa’s existence, but there is strong evidence of his existence. Toys, Reindeer, combined with the existence of the North Pole pretty much shows he exists.

Yes, there is a big difference between godly morality and morality of today's world in general, the latter is not better either.

There is reason everything is here, with such provision, and the cosmos working as it is, that has no significant likelihood from random chance. Science does not explain it, it can't. And Santa is useless for explaining it.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I cant PROVE His existence but there is strong evidence for His existence. The BB theory combined with the law of causality, pretty much shows He exists.

I'm sure you can bring yourself to believe that, provided you accept 'magic' as an explanatory mechanism. Scientists don't, thankfully, which is why virtually none of them in relevant fields agree with what you're saying here. If they did, there would be no reason to continue studying, because they would already imagine themselves to have found the answer.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Most Christians I have talked to have very superficial understandings and interpretations of the Bible. They usually ignore the context, and often interpret verses literally that are not meant to be literal based, and interpret verses as allegory with verses that aren’t meant to be allegory based; they do this to make sense of that which often makes no sense at all. Fundies especially are very guilty of this. Maybe you are an exception; and if you are congratulations.

Yes, there are some Christians that do make those mistakes but usually they are uneducated fundies, but the atheists that I encounter doing those things are usually well educated college grads.

ken: So a childhood friend claims he said this; some nameless guy claims he said such and such in secret when nobody else was around? IS THAT THE BEST YOU’VE GOT?????

No, there is Joseph Goebbels who said "The Fuhrer is deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian. He sees Christianity as a symptom of decay." He also said that Hitler wanted to wage war against Christianity. Hitler said in a speech that he was an eternal questioner of religion and a rationalist and a materialist. Walter Schellenberg an influential SS officer said Hitler did not believe in a personal God. Does any of this sound like a Christian? And these are hardly nameless rumors from nobodies.

ken: I don’t even know if those qualify as rumors! Meanwhile I provide you photos of Hitler praying, photos of Hitler and Nazi elite with Catholic elite, his book Mein Kemph claiming he was doing the lords work by protecting us from the Jews; Newspaper clippings with references to doing Gods work; These are facts. But you would rather believe rumors (if they could be called that) over facts.

My grandma used to say “you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink”. I’ve lead you to the water; the rest is up to you my friend.


Peace

Ken

No, these were not rumors, reread above. Also, both award winning historians who wrote bios of him, Ian Kershaw and Allan Bullock both said he was a pantheist, not a Christian.

 

[Strathos]

Does it matter what religious beliefs Hitler claimed to have? He was a nutcase any way you slice it.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
I cant PROVE His existence but there is strong evidence for His existence. The BB theory combined with the law of causality, pretty much shows He exists.

tnt: ‘Fraid not.

Fantastic erudite and articulate rebuttal! LOL! NOT.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, there is a big difference between godly morality and morality of today's world in general, the latter is not better either.

There is reason everything is here, with such provision, and the cosmos working as it is, that has no significant likelihood from random chance. Science does not explain it, it can't. And Santa is useless for explaining it.

True; science does not have all the answers, and fortunately they admit that. As I said before; a wrong answer does more damage than no answer at all. Many theists should take a cue from that and provide no answers at all rather than makin' stuff up.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, there is Joseph Goebbels who said "The Fuhrer is deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian. He sees Christianity as a symptom of decay." He also said that Hitler wanted to wage war against Christianity. Hitler said in a speech that he was an eternal questioner of religion and a rationalist and a materialist. Walter Schellenberg an influential SS officer said Hitler did not believe in a personal God. Does any of this sound like a Christian? And these are hardly nameless rumors from nobodies.

Really? How do you know? Did these people write books saying these things about Hitler? Did they somehow go on record with these claims? Or are these just more nameless rumors from nobodies about somebody?

No, these were not rumors, reread above. Also, both award winning historians who wrote bios of him, Ian Kershaw and Allan Bullock both said he was a pantheist, not a Christian.

Ahh so now you are beginning to turncoat? Before you said he was an Atheist and this is what lead to the Holocaust. Now you trying to make the case that he was Pantheist; but not Christian? Keep turning that coat Bro eventually you’ll get it right, after all; you are heading in the right direction!

Look even if Hitler WAS Atheist, the Nazi were not. Remember Hitler didn’t kill anybody. The religious Nazi party members did all the killing. The hatred, the evil, was already there! The ground was fertile for genocide, all Hitler had to do was provide a system and they were all too willing to spring into action! So your claim that Atheism is what lead to the Holocaust fails.

Tap out bro; you've lost this one!

 

[Ken-1122]

Does it matter what religious beliefs Hitler claimed to have? He was a nutcase any way you slice it.

He was trying to make the claim that Atheism is what lead to the Holocaust.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
True, as you were raised in a western society and were created in the image of the Christian God your morality is probably quite close to standard Christian morality which is the morality of all humanity.

ken: In case you haven’t noticed, there is a huge discrepancy between Christian morals, and the morals of modern western society.

It is true that the West is starting to drift away from Christian morality especially sexual morality but many Western moral principles are still based on Christian teaching. For example, many of the rights in the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights come from Christian moral principles.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
I cant PROVE His existence but there is strong evidence for His existence. The BB theory combined with the law of causality, pretty much shows He exists.

ken: Right! And I can’t PROVE Santa’s existence, but there is strong evidence of his existence. Toys, Reindeer, combined with the existence of the North Pole pretty much shows he exists.

No, we know toys come from ordinary humans, but reindeer (highly complex and obviously designed living things) we know don't come from humans but obviously comes from an intelligent personal being and the north pole is the result of the laws of physics and we know that laws require a lawgiver, so whatever caused the universe and the north pole to come into existence must be a personal being since only personal beings can create laws. So no, there is very little evidence for Santa but a great deal of evidence for God, the creator of living things and the universe.

 

[Ken-1122]

It is true that the West is starting to drift away from Christian morality especially sexual morality but many Western moral principles are still based on Christian teaching. For example, many of the rights in the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights come from Christian moral principles.

The reason Christian moral teaching is different today than it was years ago, is because Christian moral teaching is based on secular moral teaching; which evolves over time. Thus most western moral principles are based on secular teaching.

No, we know toys come from ordinary humans,

Just as we know toys don’t come from Santa Clause, we know the Big Bang didn’t come from your idea of God.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Weren't you claiming this bible stuff was backed up by science before? So now you are admitting it is not. Got it.


In other words; your world wide flood claims are NOT backed up by science? Got it!

I never claimed that everything in the bible is backed up by science, just like any scientific theory not everything in every theory has been confirmed by science. But the evidence I provided points in the direction of a possible worldwide flood as an explanation and that it is possible, especially considering all the evidence that the Christian God exists.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Fantastic erudite and articulate rebuttal! LOL! NOT.

I’m just parroting what I’ve seen from you. So you’re essentially laughing at yourself. And while that’s healthy from an emotional standpoint, it’s probably not what you were going for...

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
We don't know for sure if all these things can result in centuries of life but they definitely can extend life but for how long, we don't know. But we do know that the reduced supernova activity occurred around the time of the first humans.

ken: In other words; you have no scientific proof of people living for centuries. Your argument fails.

No we can't prove it, but you can't prove you exist to me with certainty, especially if there is no God.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes, it would, gravitational or tidal locking of planets or moons means the same face of the planet continuously faces the sun, or another planet. Which means the sun would not set. Google it.

ken: Why don't you google if this is possible while the planet is still spinning! And while you're at it, google if there is scientific evidence of this happening. Again; your argument fails.

Ummm.. you obviously dont know what gravitational locking is. The planet IS still spinning. It is spinning at the same rotational rate as the planet it is tidally locked with: Tidal locking - Wikipedia

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Your character comes from the very essence of who you are ie your personality, then your personality of which your character is a part and affects your thoughts for either generally good or generally bad. Who you are is far more than just your brain.

ken: Brain damage can change your character, your personality, and all that you are. Why? Because all of that comes from the brain; not the other way around.

No, your mind is what uses the brain to interact with the physical world, so if the brain is damaged it affects how the mind interacts with the world. Similar to missing keys on a keyboard. If you were missing several keys on your keyboard and typed a response back, I would not understand what you typed and would think you are brain damaged. To the external world yes, it would appear that al those changes occurred but in reality your mind is still basically the same unless these changes cause you to abandon your previous moral beliefs in your mind.