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The more we learn about the laws of physics the easier it has become to make that differentiation.The categories of supernatural miracles directly performed by God and the categories of natural processes following rules created by God.
We were talking how God's objective moral character affects humans and whether we should live by it since it is the only objectively existing morality.Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes, humans have plenty to do with it, only Humans and God are free will moral beings.
ken: But we're talking about God and morality only; not humans.
ken: Besides; how do you know beasts of the field and insects aren’t moral agents as well?
Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes, it does. God CREATED everything else including humans. He can determine what their goals are and what is best for them and He knows what is best for them and that is to live their lives according to His moral laws which are based on His objective moral character.
ken: Creating everything doesn’t mean you get to be the moral dictator.
An omniscient being would have to know everything about the one universe at the very least.Ed1wolf said: ↑
Because all the evidence points to there being only one universe which is all things that exist.
ken: One universe doesn’t mean there is only one all knowledge, and it doesn’t mean there is such a thing as an all knowledge. One has nothing to do with the other
No; I made the point that if morality is objective, then God is subject to these objective laws the same as humans are. God doesn’t get to dictate objective morality any more than he can dictate math equations.We were talking how God's objective moral character affects humans and whether we should live by it since it is the only objectively existing morality.
Just because their morals are different than ours doesn’t mean they aren’t moral agents! Hitler was responsible for the death of millions and he was never punished or ostracized by members of his group either.There is no evidence that they have a moral conscience. For example, chimps and lions kill and eat the young in their groups sometimes and they are never punished or ostracized by the other members of the group for doing so.
How do you know this?Someone that creates or invents something that has never existed before, is the only one that knows what it is for and how to use it. So it is with God and humans.
Again; how do you know only one person can fit this description? Or how do you know such a being that knows everything actually exists?An omniscient being would have to know everything about the one universe at the very least.
No, you have not explained how that would be possible. I nothing died then there would never be survival of the fittest which is the basic foundation of evolution.Ed1wolf said: ↑
I believe so, otherwise survival of the fittest means nothing. If something doesn't die and something else doesn't survive how can evolution occur? My point is that if evolution is true then death is actually a good thing.
ken: I've explained over and over how even if nothing died, evolution would still take place. How many times do I have to explain this to you?
Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, my scenario above was about supposedly what happens if evolution is true in the real world where death occurs.
ken: The reality is, evolution is true, and death does occur.
Yes it does otherwise you could never go from amoeba to Man.Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, but all evolutionists use the same scenario to try to prove evolution. Genetic structure can change without causing the organism to turn into another organism. A human with Downs syndrome which is a genetic structure change, is still a human. Right?
ken: News Flash!!! An organism does not have to change into another organism in order for evolution to take place
As I said before, when a random mutant is born and is allowed to reproduce, THAT is how evolution occurs. Nothing has to die in order for that to happen.No, you have not explained how that would be possible. I nothing died then there would never be survival of the fittest which is the basic foundation of evolution.
You don't need to go from amoeba to man in order for evolution to take place. Bruh! you seriously need to learn a little more about evolution before commenting on it.Yes it does otherwise you could never go from amoeba to Man.
Before I even begin to reply to these concluded assertions, let me ask you...
1. What is your definition of morality?
No, because animals have the same creator we do. But all the evidence says otherwise.cv: 2. If morality was demonstrated to exist in animals, besides humans, would you then retract your current conclusions in any way?
cv: 3. Do you think morality is a universal construct? Meaning, does absolute 'good' and absolute 'bad' exist, absent of being assessed by the defined moral agent?
cv: 4. If the universe was shown to most likely be eternal, would you retract any of your current conclusions about asserting a creator?
cv: If you are steadfast in your conclusions, and nothing can sway your current position, then answering becomes superfluous.
Thanks
Our Creator's rules for living a safe and fulfilling life.
Possibly since that would be evidence against the Christian God.
The same applies to you. If you decided to agree that some of my assertions are true, would you retract your view regarding the existence of God?
A female Orca whale that recently gave birth has been carrying it's dead newborn on her back for days with the entire family of Orca around her making stressful and grieving sounds in what can only be described as a funeral procession.There is no evidence that they have a moral conscience. For example, chimps and lions kill and eat the young in their groups sometimes and they are never punished or ostracized by the other members of the group for doing so.
He IS subject to His own objective moral character. He cannot go against His own moral character. That is why He cannot choose to be evil. He can only be good.Ed1wolf said: ↑
We were talking how God's objective moral character affects humans and whether we should live by it since it is the only objectively existing morality.
ken: No; I made the point that if morality is objective, then God is subject to these objective laws the same as humans are.
ken: God doesn’t get to dictate objective morality any more than he can dictate math equations.
First you have to prove that they have morals at all. What is your evidence?Ed1wolf said: ↑
There is no evidence that they have a moral conscience. For example, chimps and lions kill and eat the young in their groups sometimes and they are never punished or ostracized by the other members of the group for doing so.
ken: Just because their morals are different than ours doesn’t mean they aren’t moral agents!
ken: Hitler was responsible for the death of millions and he was never punished or ostracized by members of his group either.
Ed1wolf said: ↑
Someone that creates or invents something that has never existed before, is the only one that knows what it is for and how to use it. So it is with God and humans.
ken: How do you know this?
We know because He has told us this in His written message to us. There is evidence that such a being exists as I explained earlier in this thread about BB theory and logicEd1wolf said: ↑
An omniscient being would have to know everything about the one universe at the very least.
ken: Again; how do you know only one person can fit this description? Or how do you know such a being that knows everything actually exists?
Yeah; neither can I.He IS subject to His own objective moral character. He cannot go against His own moral character.
No, according to the Bible, there were many things he did that I believe was wrong.That is why He cannot choose to be evil. He can only be good.
First of all according to the bible the only people God created was Adam and Eve; the rest of us was created by our parents via childbirthH No, as our creator He can dictate how we work, just like when Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone, if someone back then was handed his phone they would not have any idea what it is and how it should be used unless Mr. Bell told them. So it is with God's moral rules for us. Only he knows what we were created to do and be and He has told us that in His moral law.
Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, you have not explained how that would be possible. I nothing died then there would never be survival of the fittest which is the basic foundation of evolution.
ken: As I said before, when a random mutant is born and is allowed to reproduce, THAT is how evolution occurs. Nothing has to die in order for that to happen.
If it doesn't go from amoeba to man, then we never come into existence. But yes, that is the big picture there is also smaller scale like going from an amoeba to a microscopic multicellular organism. But if the multicellular organism cannot displace (cause to die out) the amoeba then evolution stops there. So death is absolutely necessary for any evolution to occur or even for just natural selection to occur. As a biologist I had to learn a great deal about evolution, believe me. I can tell that unfortunately you are the one that has not learned very much about evolution, especially macroevolution.Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes it does otherwise you could never go from amoeba to Man.
ken: You don't need to go from amoeba to man in order for evolution to take place. Bruh! you seriously need to learn a little more about evolution before commenting on it.
No, as I stated above, if the fittest does not survive long term, then evolution can not occur. So when a mutant is born and is allowed to reproduce, if it doesn't displace (cause to die out) the organism that it was competing with for the ecological niche, then evolution stops. So the death of the competing organism MUST occur or evolution comes to a halt. Now do you understand? This is Evolutionary Biology 101. Survival of the Fittest. Without death that phrase means nothing.
Organisms don't need to compete for anything in order for evolution to take place. And in your scenario, nothing dies remember? So if this evolved organism lives forever and continues to reproduce, you will have both organisms living together because in your scenario nothing dies.No, as I stated above, if the fittest does not survive long term, then evolution can not occur. So when a mutant is born and is allowed to reproduce, if it doesn't displace (cause to die out) the organism that it was competing with for the ecological niche, then evolution stops.
No because in your scenario whether they compete or not, nothing dies remember?So the death of the competing organism MUST occur or evolution comes to a halt. Now do you understand?
In your scenario, survival of the fittest means nothing because everything lives; nothing dies. Evolution biology 101 doesn’t apply to this conversation because in the real world things do die; in this scenario we are discussing nothing dies.This is Evolutionary Biology 101. Survival of the Fittest. Without death that phrase means nothing.
Evolution took place long before mankind came about.If it doesn't go from amoeba to man, then we never come into existence.
Ed1wolf said: ↑
Our Creator's rules for living a safe and fulfilling life.
cv:To me, this is no different than a master telling their dog to 'attack', and the dog does not actually know why. The dog is not a moral agent, but is instead following orders or commands.
Ed1wolf said: ↑
Possibly since that would be evidence against the Christian God.
cv: Have you explored the claims to an eternal universe? If so, what led you to concluding the claims are false? If you have not explored such a claim, are you interested in researching; since this is what some researchers are starting to conclude, or have concluded (without a presupposition or bias)?
Ed1wolf said: ↑
The same applies to you. If you decided to agree that some of my assertions are true, would you retract your view regarding the existence of God?
cv: Demonstrate the existence of your specific God, and we can get started on hashing out the details. But until then, I'm skeptical to all claimed Gods equallyGive me the best piece of evidence to demonstrate your specific God, verses some absent or present deity of some sort.
No, your analogy is wrong. It is more like a parent telling a child rules for life. Dogs are not moral agents, you are correct. But a child and a human are. God actually does often tell us why in His written word AND in his creation. We dont always learn why immediately sometimes it takes maturity to see it. For example, we learn from His creation that violating God's law against sexual immorality very often leads to STDs or a destroyed marriage. That way we can see why He doesn't want us to engage in such things. I could similar examples for many other things.
Actually that was the old theory prior to BB theory. It was called the Steady State Theory and was popular up until the 1960s. But it was gradually rejected when all the overwhelming evidence for the BB theory started coming in and now has pretty much proven that the universe had a definite beginning and will end in a heat death. Look it up.
Well of course the law of causality applied to the BB theory demonstrates that the Creator or Cause of the universe is "outside" or transcendent to the universe, just as the Christian God is. And given that purposes exist in the universe, ie eyes are for seeing, ears for hearing, etc., that shows that the creator is a personal being because only persons can create purposes for things. And then only the Christian Bible teaches the three fundamental scientific facts about the universe that no other religious book does, 1. that the universe came into existence from no physical thing. 2. That the universe is expanding. and 3. The universe is winding down energetically. All three of these have been confirmed by the BB theory. This shows that the creator of the universe is most likely the Christian God.
Why on Earth would you trust anything science has to say? If those silly scientists don't know what they are talking about when they dismiss your God creation theories, why would you assume they would know what they are talking about when they dismiss the Steady State Theory?Actually that was the old theory prior to BB theory. It was called the Steady State Theory and was popular up until the 1960s. But it was gradually rejected when all the overwhelming evidence for the BB theory started coming in and now has pretty much proven that the universe had a definite beginning and will end in a heat death. Look it up.
The law of casualty says for every movement, there is a mover. This law does not make an exception for God, so that means if God moves, there has to be something prior to God that caused him to move. If you are going to make an exception for God, claiming this law doesn’t apply to him; then an exception can be made for anything, which means the law is invalid.Well of course the law of causality applied to the BB theory demonstrates that the Creator or Cause of the universe is "outside" or transcendent to the universe, just as the Christian God is.
Why on Earth would you trust anything science has to say? If those silly scientists don't know what they are talking about when they dismiss your God creation theories, why would you assume they would know what they are talking about when they dismiss the Steady State Theory?
The law of casualty says for every movement, there is a mover. This law does not make an exception for God, so that means if God moves, there has to be something prior to God that caused him to move. If you are going to make an exception for God, claiming this law doesn’t apply to him; then an exception can be made for anything, which means the law is invalid.
You seem to be shooting your own foot here.No, your analogy is wrong. It is more like a parent telling a child rules for life. Dogs are not moral agents, you are correct. But a child and a human are. God actually does often tell us why in His written word AND in his creation. We dont always learn why immediately sometimes it takes maturity to see it. For example, we learn from His creation that violating God's law against sexual immorality very often leads to STDs or a destroyed marriage. That way we can see why He doesn't want us to engage in such things. I could similar examples for many other things.
Because the bible teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and will have an end. It is not eternal, so if it was discovered that the universe is eternal that would be evidence for the non-existence of the Christian God. It would not disprove Him though.Why?
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