The Problem of Evil

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This still bothers me.

How a "good" creator could design an unfair system.

Ask Him.
If you truthfully want to know the truth.

Nothing is good about a fair system, possibly. Did you think of that ?

Could be that "fairness", like "good intentions", pave the wide path to destruction! ?

 

[durangodawood]

Ask Him.
If you truthfully want to know the truth.

Nothing is good about a fair system, possibly. Did you think of that ?

Could be that "fairness", like "good intentions", pave the wide path to destruction! ?

Of course fairness isnt the same thing as goodness.

But what good creator would design an unfair system, given whats at stake?

 

[Occams Barber]

Ultimately, what Jeff said. I can't add to that.

This is what Jeff said:

That's the PLAN.
From ON HIGH.
No one HIGHER!
He's the ONLY WAY.

Nothing about being fair required.

Are you agreeing with Jeff that fairness is not necessarily a characteristic of your God?
OB

 

[JAL]

If God is infinitely self sufficient then he/she/it would have no motivation to create anything. Therefore the universe and all it contains would not exist.

I think I just disproved the existence of God.

You can all go home now.
OB

I think what you proved is that God is not infinitely self-sufficient. He has at last one limitation. Which is precisely my position.

As to WHY He has that limitation, it is because God isn't who the church thinks He is. They've made Him out to be the quintessential superman and magician. What if he's not magical at all? What if He is merely what Jesus called him - our father?

And yet he is a father so ineffably more knowledgeable, powerful, skillful, infallible, and upstanding than ordinary fathers that his existence cries out for distinctive titles such as 'God'. He is the quintessential ruler, not the quintessential magician.

 

[straykat]

This is what Jeff said:


Are you agreeing with Jeff that fairness is not necessarily a characteristic of your God?
OB

It's a mystery with God and fairness. It wasn't fair for him come in the flesh himself either and die for you... when he didn't have to.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Of course fairness isnt the same thing as goodness.

But what good creator would design an unfair system, given whats at stake?

The current system is the only system there is.

The only way to be saved to eternal life, to be redeemed, is if Jesus' Blood paid the price for your sins.

There is no other way.

You know enough to be saved now. (yes, your soul is at stake)

Call that unfair if you want to.

I sure would not demand God be fair though - He Does whatever He Wants to Do.

 

[durangodawood]

...I sure would not demand God be fair though - He Does whatever He Wants to Do.

They have a phrase for that. "Arbitrary and capricious".

 

[brinny]

OldWiseGuy said: ↑
.


It must be as sinfulness comes naturally to us. We don't have to be taught how to sin, but we do have to be taught how to be righteous.

I'd call that a significant design flaw and complain to the manufacturer.
OB

...and who or what might that be?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

ok. So if its not exactly fair.... nor arbitrary either.... then what is it?

Nothing with Yahuweh is arbitrary.

If you think it is not fair, that's your choice.

Fairness is not a requirement for much of anything eternal, in this life or in the next.

Righteousness and a pure heart are required though. Yes, in this life and in the next. (just to make it to the next!)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They have a phrase for that. "Arbitrary and capricious".

Nothing with Yahuweh is arbitrary.

I don't know about capricious. But no, that is not a phrase for God. That is an excuse of the devil as he convinces multitudes to reject Godliness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...and who or what might that be?

.....

Moses KNOWS HIM!

 

[durangodawood]

It's a mystery with God and fairness. It wasn't fair for him come in the flesh himself either and die for you... when he didn't have to.

Nothing with Yahuweh is arbitrary.

If you think it is not fair, that's your choice.

Fairness is not a requirement for much of anything eternal, in this life or in the next.

Righteousness and a pure heart are required though. Yes, in this life and in the next. (just to make it to the next!)

So now its neither arbitrary nor fair???

Ok. The only thing left then is: its mechanistic. Not the product of a mind at all.

 

[straykat]

So now its neither arbitrary nor fair???

Ok. The only thing left then is: its mechanistic. Not the product of a mind at all.

I only said it was a mystery. I don't know how you built up enough of a model to come up with a mechanistic system.

 

[Occams Barber]

I think what you proved is that God is not infinitely self-sufficient. He has at last one limitation. Which is precisely my position.

As to WHY He has that limitation, it is because God isn't who the church thinks He is. They've made Him out to be the quintessential superman and magician. What if he's not magical at all? What if He is merely what Jesus called him - our father?

And yet he is a father so ineffably more knowledgeable, powerful, skillful, infallible, and upstanding than ordinary fathers that his existence cries out for distinctive titles such as 'God'. He is the quintessential ruler, not the quintessential magician.

Actually JAL the self-sufficiency argument has two possible outcomes:

Either

God is not infinitely self sufficient​

or

God does not exist
​

Since you've decided on the 'not infinitely self sufficient' option then - what is God's limitation?

As a general observation you appear to have defined the nature of God as some arbitrary mid point between (the Christian) God and humans - powerful but fallible. The Greeks did something similar.
OB

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So now its neither arbitrary nor fair???

Ok. The only thing left then is: its mechanistic. Not the product of a mind at all.

Who told you - what is the 'source' of the errors , that something ought to be fair,
or
that you could or should expect any fairness in life ?

See? The only thing left that will help you is the truth, not what you were told in error by the ungodly sources before, and not what excuses you can come up with to reject God and Godliness.

 

[Occams Barber]

It's a mystery with God and fairness. It wasn't fair for him come in the flesh himself either and die for you... when he didn't have to.

Ahh...it's a Mystery. The standard Christian Get Out Of Jail Free card.

By the way - if God chose to sacrifice himself to himself - where does fairness come into it?

OB

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's a mystery with God and fairness. It wasn't fair for him come in the flesh himself either and die for you... when he didn't have to.

 

[straykat]

Ahh...it's a Mystery. The standard Christian Get Out Of Jail Free card.

By the way - if God chose to sacrifice himself to himself - where does fairness come into it?

OB

I don't know one instance where that "got me out of jail". All responses are like yours, where you're keenly aware of what I'm saying and not letting me "get out of jail". Maybe I'm not doing it right?

As far as I'm concerned, I'm just stating what it is. I expect nothing from you, nor am I trying to get out of anything.

 

[durangodawood]

I only said it was a mystery. I don't know how you built up enough of a model to come up with a mechanistic system.

Actually your answer is the other sensible option: its not-sensible, aka a mystery.

As for your question: if a system is neither fair nor arbitrary.... then whats left?
Well, fair and arbitrary are attributes of conscious intent. There cannot be neither, unless there simply is no conscious intent. Hence: mechanistic.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, fair and arbitrary are attributes of conscious intent. There cannot be neither, unless there simply is no conscious intent. Hence: mechanistic.

This is a false idea, planted in men by the enemy of all life and the enemy of truth, the devil. It is a humanistic thing perhaps, but not true.

Why continue to fight against the truth, against Jesus, the only one who is able to bring you to the Father for eternal life, instead of a resurrection to destruction ? ! ?