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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
Isnt evil just another "random event"? Either anomolous or regular, who knows?
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Archaeopteryx
Wanderer
No, because evil, if it is characterised as an action of morally capable agents, does not occur purely on a random basis.
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niye
Guest
Heaven doesn't help the free will defense.
There is no evil in heaven, yet it is populated by humans.
That means humans either have no free will in heaven, or their free will is changed in such a way that they can no longer sin.
That, in turn, implies that our free will, supposedly so precious that God allows children to be raped and genocides to continue in order to preserve it, is not so precious after all.
Abrahamic gods are too omni-omni-omni for their own good.
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Created, imperfect beings do not have free will. There are several cases in the bible where it is shown that both humans and principalities are bounded by the will of God. They need permission to do things, and are on leashes in terms of will.
Prayer is not about making wishes, or asking for things: it is a former of meditation and practice that teaches created beings how to align their will with the Most High, and to trust and love Him.
Holy beings have free will, but they are holy - which means their will is aligned with the Most High. So, they choose to 100% follow the will of God as per their holiness. This is their choice - and angels do have the choice to choose or reject God as we see in the bible. The whole of creation, therefore, follows the will of God no matter what they choose to do.
[Limited]Will, especially free will is a paradox. All entities have the basal choice to choose right or wrong; the events that influence that decision are for one's own enrichment. It is to show us who we are in those situations based on our choices. You may not have chosen to have your town obliterated by a Sharknado, but you can choose how to react to it - rejecting God, taking it out on family, finding hope in things, starting foundations, etc. That bit of will is what this whole mess called fallen creation is trying to exploit and pollute, so imagine an entity with 100% free will.
It would be irresponsible to endow an imperfect created being with that much leeway/100% free will, in my opinion (which really doesn't matter spiritually.) They would use that will for their own lusts and wants eventually, and justify it in spite of the overall "forest" of life.
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talquin
Guest
Do humans have the freedom to choose to do either good or bad when they're in heaven?
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niye
Guest
You begin with "created, imperfect beings do not have free will," and end with "all entities have the basal choice to choose right or wrong." This is a contradiction. Having no free will =/= having some free will. btw, no one is stating that humans have complete free will. We're social, embodied animals, controlled, limited by our communities and our physicality.
If "created, imperfect beings do not have free will," and if "both humans and principalities are bounded by the will of God...need permission to do things, and are on leashes in terms of will," then we can do away with both the free will defense and the problem of evil.
Preserving human free will at all cost can no longer be an excuse for murders, rapes, genocides, as humans don't have free will to preserve.
This also solves the problem of evil by getting rid of God's omni-omni-omni nature. A God who permits humans (who have no free will) to kill, rape, murder, betray, cheat, etc., can not be omnibenevolent. That solves the problem of evil, which applies only to an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.
If there is (limited) free will, and if God is omni-omni-omni, then the problem of evil stands. Stating that entire towns must be destroyed by Sharknado so we can learn more about ourselves is pretty insane. Why Sharknado? Why concentration camps? Why plagues, cancer, killer earthquakes? Surely there are less painful ways of teaching your children. Any parent will tell you that, and any parent who would subject his children to torment, using that excuse, would be publicly shamed, then imprisoned.
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No, it isn't a contradiction. A entities have the basal choice to choose right or wrong. That doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want to do. The "you want [insert object], you have to go get it" phrase is a set up for disappointment, because no one who isn't holy gets to do whatever they want to do. You do get the choice to learn, make choices and gain wisdom from the success - or failure of trying to get what you want. Choice is inward, while will is outward. Specifically will is the outward projection of intention, from which both choice and will come. (This is why there is a universal philosophy of having a pure "heart": you need a pure heart for your intentions to have a pure choice, or will.)
Is there such a thing as 96.34% free? What about 0.934% free? You are either [100%] free, or you are not free. You either have free will, or you have bounded will. That is why I later said it is limited for linguistic reasons. I prefaced my post with "there is no such thing as free will for created beings," because there isn't: bounded will is not free by definition unless it is 100% unbounded.
Will and choice are different, just like adultery and lust are different. You may want to take over the entire world; that is your intention. If you make an inward expression of this intention, you will make choices that can include doing everything evil to attain your intentions, or doing everything with a pure/holy response to every event and situation with which you are faced - and everything in between. You still have responsibility, choice, and intention, and you can still try to "fight against fate" and "ignore the inevitable," making choices based on your intentions. Your God-set boundary of will comes from what He does or does not allow of your will. Just because you don't have the means to destroy a life doesn't mean you don't have a murderous heart/psychosis. Again, most philosophies understand this - even ones that also acknowledge the non-existence of free will. That is part of the dichotomy of life, and the "average goal" of them is becoming in unity and at peace. For Christ and God, intention (heart) is just as accountable as the completed action, because evil intentions spawn evil choices and will.
Remember those figures? God gives everyone some quantity of will to do what they want to do. He even said this - when He said He would deliver people into their burning passions and lusts in the end. He did it with Pharaoh; someone like him was going to do whatever he could to get what he wanted anyway. God allows certain things to happen, that should be deductible. If He gives us a certain latitude to do some things we want - and we are sinners - then He gave them to fallen angels and demons. The bible makes that clear; a Satan begged God for permission to do things to Job, and God allowed it. That satan's evil trickled down to his friends and wife. It also trickles down to people who intend to murder and rape. It doesn't mean they are any less responsible for their actions because God allowed them to do it. Quite the contrary, they are now more responsible than if they only intended instead of making a choice, and willing it to happen.
No, it doesn't. You are looking through a narrow tunnel. I keep bringing up mathematically ordered chaos theory because this is what life is. Despite the adjective name, life is finely tuned, and accounted for. Wouldn't it be nice if a lion allowed you to pull a spiny thorn out of its paw - to have that trust? You can't now, because the lion doesn't trust humans, and pulling the thorn hurts. So, the lion will fight you even though you as a human know that doing this may do more good than harm.
No it doesn't. People have the responsibility of choice and intention, and will be held accountable for their choice, intentions and what they will (do from them.) Just because someone knows every single possibility of every single minute event doesn't excuse what people do, or remove responsibility. It anything it ensures accountability. And, just because someone who has the power to do anything decides not to do something doesn't make them evil, or not all good. Because you do not know everything, and you are not everywhere, you couldn't possibly understand how allowing something to happen could affect future events - except a few years ahead of your current existence. Hardly omniscience on your part, and a horrible argument to try to vindicate accusing a self-proclaimed Good God with lying.
Everyone has their cross to bear. Some have to go through losing family, friends, careers, their own lives, money... People lose their minds, their souls, their beauty and vitality, virility... And, then people lose hair, a tooth, a big game, a confidence...
Do you think you deserve to have a better life than someone else? Because, to a holy God you are no better, and without Vindication you deserve death just like the next person. So, God will allow good and bad to happen to good and bad people. The point in all of that is how you deal with it, and the choices you make and intentions you have. It is still your responsibility to intend to, and choose to do evil. By consequence it is your responsibility if God allows you to act on your intentions, and choose to willfully do something.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
Ok, so the universe (as a whole) is random, but its contents, including human agency and moral evil, need not be random?
Composition and division - RationalWiki
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
Well if it uncaused, then it may be random, if uncaused things are random that is?
But life is non random, because it is nurtured by seleection processes as well as moulded my mutation. And morality is an aspect of living things, or life dependent? So if there is copnscious life there is evil (and good), maybe. And God gave us life....so there is evil as part of it.
But life is non random, because it is nurtured by seleection processes as well as moulded my mutation. And morality is an aspect of living things, or life dependent? So if there is copnscious life there is evil (and good), maybe. And God gave us life....so there is evil as part of it.
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talquin
Guest
If an all-powerful God did allow evil, then by definition, he wouldn't be loving. Can a sadistic god exist? Yes, unless it can be shown that it is inherently contradictory to be sadistic.
Can an all-loving and all-powerful god exist? Not in the presence of mass calamities.
Therefore, it is more likely that a sadistic god exists than an all-powerful & all-loving god exists.
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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You think so because you do not know what love is. Read Corinthians 13.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
It s a bit of a derail. Discussing evil from a secular perspective. Then maybe we might "know the mind of God" more.
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talquin
Guest
Let's say you love a child. This child was about to get brutally raped. You are fully capable of preventing the rape and fully capable of controlling any consequences which may happen as a result of preventing the rape. Would you stop the rape?
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parkerjwill
Hare Krsna - Essential Vedic
Hi everyone. If I may join the discussion. 
I think the problem of evil is a good argument. Indeed, being that God is all good and all powerful and all present, there is no room for evil in the absolute sense. But "evil" as an a priori substance is an illusion, assumed as such by the subjective-by-nature consciousness of that person presuming him/herself to be in a position to judge it as such. Objectivity is a quality not found in "evil".
"Evil" is a limited perspective on an apparently useless, meaningless, purposeless, or godless event, person, place, or thing, etc. But this cannot be, as God is all present, all good, and all powerful.
I think the problem of evil is a good argument. Indeed, being that God is all good and all powerful and all present, there is no room for evil in the absolute sense. But "evil" as an a priori substance is an illusion, assumed as such by the subjective-by-nature consciousness of that person presuming him/herself to be in a position to judge it as such. Objectivity is a quality not found in "evil".
"Evil" is a limited perspective on an apparently useless, meaningless, purposeless, or godless event, person, place, or thing, etc. But this cannot be, as God is all present, all good, and all powerful.
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Dave Ellis
Contributor
- Dec 27, 2011
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Hi everyone. If I may join the discussion.
I think the problem of evil is a good argument. Indeed, being that God is all good and all powerful and all present, there is no room for evil in the absolute sense. But "evil" as an a priori substance is an illusion, assumed as such by the subjective-by-nature consciousness of that person presuming him/herself to be in a position to judge it as such. Objectivity is a quality not found in "evil".
"Evil" is a limited perspective on an apparently useless, meaningless, purposeless, or godless event, person, place, or thing, etc. But this cannot be, as God is all present, all good, and all powerful.
So the Holocaust wasn't actually evil, it was actually perfectly fine since god was there to watch it, and just gave off the "illusion" of evil?
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Already solved:
Debating atheists on the “Problem of Evil” | Reformed Christian Theology
If you have new objections as to why evil somehow impugns the anture of God, get back to me.
Debating atheists on the “Problem of Evil” | Reformed Christian Theology
If you have new objections as to why evil somehow impugns the anture of God, get back to me.
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