FrenzyforChrist
Active Member
Intresting joke lol. I should of seen it but I wasnt paying attention.
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The problem of evil
- Thread starter L4T3R4LUS
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Intresting joke lol. I should of seen it but I wasnt paying attention.
I love jokes and humour, but unfortunately we cannot assume someone does not understand sex is not love. Many people seem to believe it is.
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FrenzyforChrist
Active Member
Yes but at the same there is just as many understnd that it is two difrent things. Even people who arent Christians.
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ExistencePrecedesEssence
Fools seem to ruin even the worst of things!
"Yes, but at the same there is just as many understandings that it is two different things. Even people who are not Christians"
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very_irreverand_Bill
Guest
God is evil!!!
That shocking statement made.
I am Deistic{leaning PanDeistic/PanenDeistic}= hence, though the term/human word "God' itself means little t me, the core idea conveyed behind it{intelligent creator} is something I believe in, so I will say this for conventions sake- I believe in "God".
The problem here is first off, the god of the bible, the quran, the tankah, of theist faiths, is PURELY "MYTH".
Now to Natures God;
God is both good and evil.
If God is the source of ALL things, and NOTHING would exist without having first existed within God itself and having beeinbrought into the manifest universe that we observe and live in and are part of; than it follows logically that the idea that God is good and only thus- is absurd! It follows that, God created AL things, all energy, thought, matter,essense,etc; this means that ALL things we "percieve" of as "good", and all things we "percieve" of as "evil"- whether form INDIVIDUAL perspectives, or socilized into us by our cultures, or by natural law, or by our ability as a species as a whole to be able to reason out rational,fair, and practica ethics, as a collective; all these things we "percieve' of as good or evil, are ALL from this same source- GOD!
God is both good and evil.
To be more precise-"God" is BEYOND "good" and "evil", "good and evil beeing human contructs{or the contructs of living organism sentient life forms in the Cosmos}.
Love/hate, justice/injustice, good/evil, harm/help, beauty/ugliness, joy/despair, peace/war, all our dualities- God is a balance of all{kinda like the Tao, or the yin/yang concept}.
God is non-personal, God is not human like nor human-centered, so God cannot be rationally blamed nor praised, God is too vast and ineffable and UNKNOWN{accept that we can postulate that there is a good chance this intelligent thing exists by the ordered chaos, the limited set of natural laws that we are aware exist, the diverse and comple but ordered universe}.
God, at best, can be seen with a certain awe or reverance{by this I do not mean the common ideals of "worship", but rather much the same way we awe or reverance nature and the vast comsos}.
The problem of evil is a false argument. so is the argument of "good". Both are human contstructs and perspectives, as a social species there is good REASON that can be supported scientirically and philosophically to follow certain practical ethics, it's part of naural law and beeing of the human species; but there is NO UNIVERSAL "GOOD" OR "EVIL". All comes from this source{or "God' if ye will}----
---God is BEYOND "GOOD" AND "EVIL".
In Reason:
Irrev.Bill
That shocking statement made.
I am Deistic{leaning PanDeistic/PanenDeistic}= hence, though the term/human word "God' itself means little t me, the core idea conveyed behind it{intelligent creator} is something I believe in, so I will say this for conventions sake- I believe in "God".
The problem here is first off, the god of the bible, the quran, the tankah, of theist faiths, is PURELY "MYTH".
Now to Natures God;
God is both good and evil.
If God is the source of ALL things, and NOTHING would exist without having first existed within God itself and having beeinbrought into the manifest universe that we observe and live in and are part of; than it follows logically that the idea that God is good and only thus- is absurd! It follows that, God created AL things, all energy, thought, matter,essense,etc; this means that ALL things we "percieve" of as "good", and all things we "percieve" of as "evil"- whether form INDIVIDUAL perspectives, or socilized into us by our cultures, or by natural law, or by our ability as a species as a whole to be able to reason out rational,fair, and practica ethics, as a collective; all these things we "percieve' of as good or evil, are ALL from this same source- GOD!
God is both good and evil.
To be more precise-"God" is BEYOND "good" and "evil", "good and evil beeing human contructs{or the contructs of living organism sentient life forms in the Cosmos}.
Love/hate, justice/injustice, good/evil, harm/help, beauty/ugliness, joy/despair, peace/war, all our dualities- God is a balance of all{kinda like the Tao, or the yin/yang concept}.
God is non-personal, God is not human like nor human-centered, so God cannot be rationally blamed nor praised, God is too vast and ineffable and UNKNOWN{accept that we can postulate that there is a good chance this intelligent thing exists by the ordered chaos, the limited set of natural laws that we are aware exist, the diverse and comple but ordered universe}.
God, at best, can be seen with a certain awe or reverance{by this I do not mean the common ideals of "worship", but rather much the same way we awe or reverance nature and the vast comsos}.
The problem of evil is a false argument. so is the argument of "good". Both are human contstructs and perspectives, as a social species there is good REASON that can be supported scientirically and philosophically to follow certain practical ethics, it's part of naural law and beeing of the human species; but there is NO UNIVERSAL "GOOD" OR "EVIL". All comes from this source{or "God' if ye will}----
---God is BEYOND "GOOD" AND "EVIL".
In Reason:
Irrev.Bill
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I don't agree. Torturing babies to enjoy their screaming is evil.. Not connected to social human constructs and perspectives--just evil-and it is universal evil. God is Good and not evil.
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very_irreverand_Bill
Guest
Univeral in the UNIVERSE sense? How do you justify this claim when the Universe is so vast and complex?
Universal in the natural sense of humans being evolved towards a capacity for 'reason" and natural compassion as a social animal, yes. In that sense it is Universally evil, and it is UNNATURAL "FOR OUR SPECIES" to do such, or any animal{or at least "mammals' and a few others; there are bugs that eat their young I believe, but I suppose they are'nt torturing them first} to do. It in UNHUMAN for a human to do such things; for inherent in any well wired and evolved human animal is the natural love for innocence and the safety and well beeing of our children/offspring.
...and tha note, snce you are a Christian, I might advise you to read your Bible a little more closely, because the anthropomorphic and anthropocentric sky-parent personal deity in it often commanded or okeyed the torture and murder of innocent babies,children, and youth. Just read the O.T. to see for yourself, it's loaded with such horror. and after all, does not Yahweh HIMSELF actually state " form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV); "; and what makes this so much worse than the actual firs cause God creating all these opposites from itself, is that the deistic first cause god is not a personal beeing, it did not reveal itself to us as personal and call itself good and loving and just, in other words it made so false promises{it makes none at all} or says no flattering things of itself;it is the highest thing on the cosmic fod chain, it is a indifferent scientist at best. This does'nt make it evil, nor good, but BEYOND both[but Yahweh,allah,etc, because of blatent lies and cruelty whilst claiming to be concerned for human species especially-makes THEM EVIL}
However, "God"{or "the FIRST CAUSE source"} if it exists, created ALL things.
It is illogical and hypocritivcal of us to only affirm the pretty things, the things that make us as humans feel special, the things that we see as good for us, as coming from God; and all the things tha are contrary to that as NOT coming from God. If God created ALL things, that meants that within God itself had to exist the very energy or essense of the thougths that become such 'evil", the natural disasters, the death and destruction, the pain and the suffering. Else it could not exist could it?
You are free to disagree, but because you disagreee does'nt mae your view so. If God exists and CREATED all things{that is the definition of God in any sense, the ultimate creative first cause force or beeing}- it is self-denial and hypocrisy and naeivety to ignore tha the things we find abhorable also coem from within and are therefore a part of this source or "God". pure logcal fallacy and self-delusion.
Again, this does'nt make it evil, nor good, but the source of both and ALL, and beyond them.
In Reason:
Irrev.Bill
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ManOfTheAmish
Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.
Ultimately man allows evil to remain by perpetuating it himself in corruption. Evil is a extension of man and not God.
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Only if you wish to misunderstand what the Bible says. And I don't believe in an inerrant Bible by the way so from my point of view it could actually teach that and it would still be incorrect.
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If by "evil" you mean "detrimental to society and causes harm to the human species" then yes, torturing babies is indeed "evil".
It is not, however, universal -
why?
It does not affect any species other than Homo-sapiens.
It is not evil in terms of the species "X-goon" which exists the other side of the universe.
From those two points - which are not logical concurrent- you go on to state that "God is good and not evil"
Where do you get this from?
You had that conclusion in your mind from the start, and no matter what people point out to you, you keep that view in mind, and come to it no matter how much logical reasoning is used against it.
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I define evil as being unloving to others.
I suspect it is.
The X-goon also know that being harmful to each other is a bad thing.
If there is a God-Creator, this means that is the source of life and I have life and life is good.
No one yet including you has given a logical reason why torturing Babies to enjoy their screaming is a good thing.
You however had the assumption in your mind from the start that there is no objective morality so when one is presented, you are against it being objective and universal because it goes against your basic assumption.
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- Jun 26, 2004
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I'm not going to offer a popular answer, just a Biblical one.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? {38} Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
If harden harts do not result in sin, what does?
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Giving sin a purpose and making it sure doesn't affect God's nature, isn't that what we call a "false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy or bifurcation?"
Peace,
j
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? {38} Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
If harden harts do not result in sin, what does?
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {23} And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Giving sin a purpose and making it sure doesn't affect God's nature, isn't that what we call a "false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy or bifurcation?"
Peace,
j
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It is an assumption on my part that God is good. If you disagree that is an assumption on your part and cannot be proved by logical reasoning, just as I cannot prove my assumption by logical reasoning. We are talking about the nature of the Creator. It is also not provable by logical reasoning that a Creator exists or does not exist.
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Things may be _generally_ considered good or bad because a large amount of people adhere to certain sentiments toward certain actions.
People, in general, do not like to see babies tortured. So the act is "evil" because society in general disapproves of it.
On the other hand, you have a group of sadists who think that torturing babies is grand.
But a "universal good" is not meant to be voted democratically. So just because many think that it is bad does not make it universally bad, it only makes it bad from the perspective of the majority of society. Society deems things bad, and attempts to remove them, because they have negative effects on its well being and cohesion.
Then again, you brought up a somewhat silly example, because most humans are against inflcting suffering on another for one's own amusement.
Then again, look at the romans, they fed live people to the lions for their amusement. So they thought it was good. I don't see a large distinction between adults and babies for the purpose of this argument.
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No it is evil even if society approves of it.
What mentally defective people think is not relevant.
As I said society can make mistakes about what it approves or disapproves but somethings are evil even if everybody is doing it.
Yes and most mentally normal humans understand it is not a loving thing to do.
And it was evil and bad at the time.
They did it but in most cases I think they did it knowing it was wrong. People chosing to do the wrong thing does not mean they do not know any different. The murderer at the college in Virginian knew what he was doing was the wrong thing to do but he did it anyway. That is indicated by the ravings he made about how it could have been avoided and did not have to happen. But even if he did not have the mental capacity to know what he was doing was evil, it still was. Yates may have been and I am sure she was crazy and that means drowning her children was not murder for which she is responsible, but what she did was still evil and any normal human knows that is true. So her mental state of thinking it was alright did not change it from an evil act to a not evil act. It is evil regardless of what she thought, and really regardless of what a majority of society thinks.
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