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I can understand why you think the other things will happen...but why would you be working? Is there a need for money? Will someone need to scrub the toilets in paradise?
So there will only be satisfying work in heaven? I am asking because the physical world comes with a lot of necessary but uninspiring, unsatisfactory work. (See Ana´s example of scrubbing toilets).The Bible uniformly lauds the intrinsic value of work. According to Christian theology, work is not just something that we have to do to survive or make money. Work is a basic human need just like food and water. Satisfying work is part of the joy of life.
Ok. Tell me more about it. Will we digest, will we have pain, will we be vulnerable, will we suffer, can we be killed, will we age, will there be gravity and all the natural laws...or what does "physical" mean in this statement?
It´s interesting, though, that he uses a word that can also mean "world", for this.
So there will only be satisfying work in heaven? I am asking because the physical world comes with a lot of necessary but uninspiring, unsatisfactory work. (See Ana´s example of scrubbing toilets).
Yes, words like "supernatural", "spiritual" are almost always used as antagonists to "physical, natural, material" - by Christians. Many of their points depend on them being antagonists.
Now, I have to wonder why Christian work from this idea all over CF, yet nobody shows up to correct it until a non-believer refers to it.
To freely express himself.
Ok, but I am asking whether "physical" means roughly the same as it means here, or whether you rather just use it to solve a contradiction even though you actually mean something like "supernatural".While I don't think that the answer here is beyond our theoretical comprehension, I do think that it is beyond our experience.
Yeah, but we keep being told that all those positive things/feelings/aspects necessarily come with their opposite in a physical world - and that actually makes quite some sense to me.According to the Bible we were always meant for a physical world but the current state of things is under God's curse. So pain, vulnerability, suffering, death, and aging are all "intruders" into the physical world (or at least the physical world as it was meant to be experienced by humans). The age to come will be altogether physical with dirt, gravity, eating, digestion (I assume?) but it will lack everything that's associated with the curse - pain, death, sickness, etc.
So it´s not like the physical world? So it´s a natural world without the laws of nature?This might be a world hard to imagine because it's a world we've never properly experienced.
So when in heaven we step on a Lego with bare feet, this will be an enjoyable sensation? When we touch a hot stove, we will have an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] instead of pain or something?But I do think that we catch glimpses of it every now and then in this age. Moments of joy, for instance, give us some dim glimpse of what life was always meant to be like.
The Bible uniformly lauds the intrinsic value of work. According to Christian theology, work is not just something that we have to do to survive or make money. Work is a basic human need just like food and water. Satisfying work is part of the joy of life.
Yeah, just imagine I had opened a thread about the physical afterlife in Christian theology, instead of this one...It's almost as if the idea of "supernatural" and "non-physical" being inexorably connected is perfectly reasonable until someone (an atheist) comes along and explains a problem with it and it's relation to the message of the theology.
Once that happens...then you're told it's all wrong.
I remember making a thread explaining the logic behind how going to hell isn't a choice...it's a decision made by god. One of the necessary criteria for my argument is that we are all sinners....and that no one is free from sin.
The only posters to respond were the ones who told me it was possible to live a life without sin and there were examples of this in the lives of saints.
Imagine my surprise.
Will our dumps smell like roses?Frustration associated with work is part of the curse (Genesis 3:17-19). Work was meant to be something we enjoy. Even menial work like scrubbing toilets. In the age to come the frustration will be removed and work will be fruitful and altogether enjoyable.
I think the word by "antagonist" you may have meant "antonyms". Is that right?Yes, words like "supernatural", "spiritual" are almost always used as antagonists to "physical, natural, material" - by Christians. Many of their points depend on them being antagonists.
Now, I have to wonder why Christian work from this idea all over CF, yet nobody shows up to correct it until a non-believer refers to it.
The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?
Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?
I take the Christian God concepts as they come. But I hope you can understand that I can´t address all of them with the same questions/arguments, even though they are contradicting each other.* Christian God, is only partially (1/3) spiritual.
* The world He created is MORE THAN the material world we know.
* Christians ARE of this world (more than any other religions). It is a very important doctrine of Christianity.
* The actual goal is BOTH spiritual and physical.
If these modifications hold, then they will totally change your question.
So, you may want to explore EACH ONE OF THEM first.
In which way are the physical aspects of afterlife similar to this life, and in which way are they different?
Yes. Thanks for your help!I think the word by "antagonist" you may have meant "antonyms". Is that right?
I take the Christian God concepts as they come. But I hope you can understand that I can´t address all of them with the same questions/arguments, even though they are contradicting each other.
So, if time permits, I will make a thread customized to your God concept, eventually. But I can´t promise.
I agree. I didn´t start with one aspect and questioned it.You can not pick up ONE aspect among many and start to question that ONE. Because they are all related.
I can only repeat: You need to have a little patience until your particular God concept and theology gets its own thread.God is spiritual. But God is also physical. Christians goal is spiritual, but is ALSO physical.
To freely express himself.
The world...the history of the world...is His story.First off two things:
1. This isn´t meant to prove the Christian God non-existent (albeit imo, it is related to e.g. the Problem of Evil). It´s just about something at the core of Christian theology that doesn´t make any sense at all, to me.
2. Obviously, I am looking for an explanation that makes sense on human terms. Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.
The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?
More in detail:
"Spiritual" realms and physical/natural/material realms are quite apparently very different in nature, the problems (assuming for a moment there are problems in the "spiritual realm" at all) are of very different nature and manifestations, and problem-solving requires totally different means and competences in those different realms.
Just to name the first two things that come to mind as appearing exclusive to the physical realm (and which seem to be the basis for most "evil", "suffering", "trouble", "struggles", "sins" (or whatever you want to call it - I hope you get the idea) :
- Limited resources
- Zero sum games.
The most frequent explanations I have heard for creating this physical realm:
It´s some kind of test run for the "spiritual" afterlife, a method to separate those who are fit for this afterlife from those who aren´t.
Now, what´s the point in creating realmB as a test for our fitness for realmA when those problems that we have to deal with/overcome in realmB don´t even exist in realmA?
Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?
Uhmm, ok. You make it sound like we are the watchers of this unreal movie. Christian theology, however, makes it sound like we are real actors in this unreal movie.The world...the history of the world...is His story.
A better question, which may held in understanding...is: "Why would a timeless God created a world of time?"
The answer is the same for both questions: To tell what happened in detail to a captive audience.
But...creation - this world - is a creation...a play, a production. Before the movie, you're like.."What's going to happen?" After, it's like, "Wow, cool!"
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