The Problem of a Different Past

[Pesto]

Not true, I think it is a pretty decoration. Also, there will still be nations outside of the city on that new earth in need of some healing, and they will still need the sun, and grow crops, etc.


Ask God, He says there will be new ones, and these ones will forever be no more.
Besides, the state of the present physical only universe is one that is not eternal, as mentioned.


Speaking of a point, I don't get yours. do you have something against earth? God is coming here to live forever, how bad could it be?


No, that is just the first thousand. After that, the new heavens appear, and the city lands on earth.


We will have our bodies raised from the dead.


Just look at Him! The bible says we shall be like that. How was He after rising from the dead? He was spiritual in a lot of ways, yes, but He ate and drank with the deciples. He said to go ahead, and put a finger in the wounds, and see He was flesh and bone, and not just a spirit! Did you miss that?


No it is fact bordering on absolute. We shall be raised from the dead in a twinkling of the eye.


There is water in heaven, and there also will be a sun. The processes will be different to a large degree, yes.


Yeah, well, the sun will really be the sun, and we will really be us, and Jesus will really be Jesus, and the bible characters living there will really be Moses, and Daniel, etc. And our parents, and relatives that are saved, and living there will be who they are as well.


I'd like to be very recognizable, than you very much, and be able to recognize others. Maybe I'll take Marilyn Monroe to an Elvis concert.

Freezing water does not kill me, the sun, the earth, or anything else I can think of. I don't see any big problem with maybe some wanting a little snow in their part of heaven once in a blue moon.


Did I say that? Does flying off to the ends of the universe relegate us to a here and now?


What would you prefer, a little grass shack?? Put in your order, who knows?

I don't know why you think I have something against the physical. I think it is an important part of creation. I think heaven is both, physical, and spiritual, together. Here, we just have the physical.

I'd really like to see the Bible verses you base all this on.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I'd really like to see the Bible verses you base all this on.

Now if you're tired or a bit run down,
Can't seem to getcha feet off the ground,
Maybe you oughta try a little bit of L.S.D.
Only if you want to

Shake your head and rattle your brain,
Make you act just a bit insane,
Give you all the psychic energy you need —
Eat flowers and kiss babies
L.S.D.
For you and me!

Country Joe and the Fish

 

[dad]

...
Maybe you oughta try a little bit of L.S.D.
...

Well, here is his answer. No LSD required, just a little KJV.


Originally Posted by dad
1) Not true, I think it is a pretty decoration. Also, there will still be nations outside of the city on that new earth in need of some healing, and they will still need the sun, and grow crops, etc.


Rev 21:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it

2) Ask God, He says there will be new ones, and these ones will forever be no more.
Besides, the state of the present physical only universe is one that is not eternal, as mentioned.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;..


3) Speaking of a point, I don't get yours. do you have something against earth? God is coming here to live forever, how bad could it be?

Re 21:3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4) No, that is just the first thousand. After that, the new heavens appear, and the city lands on earth.


Re 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


5) We will have our bodies raised from the dead.



1Co 15:52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

6)Just look at Him! The bible says we shall be like that. How was He after rising from the dead? He was spiritual in a lot of ways, yes, but He ate and drank with the deciples. He said to go ahead, and put a finger in the wounds, and see He was flesh and bone, and not just a spirit! Did you miss that?


Lu 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
No it is fact bordering on absolute. We shall be raised from the dead in a twinkling of the eye.
15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

7) There is water in heaven, and there also will be a sun. The processes will be different to a large degree, yes.


Re 22:2 - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Psalms 72: 17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued
as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him
blessed.
Ps 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before
me.
Ps 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful
witness in heaven. Selah.
Ps 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be
removed for ever.
Psalm 148: 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were
created. 6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a
decree which shall not pass.

8) Yeah, well, the sun will really be the sun, and we will really be us, and Jesus will really be Jesus, and the bible characters living there will really be Moses, and Daniel, etc. And our parents, and relatives that are saved, and living there will be who they are as well.


Joh 11:26 -And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

9) I'd like to be very recognizable, than you very much, and be able to recognize others. Maybe I'll take Marilyn Monroe to an Elvis concert.

12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
Re 14:2 -And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:



10) Did I say that? Does flying off to the ends of the universe relegate us to a here and now?

Psalm 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

11) What would you prefer, a little grass shack?? Put in your order, who knows?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Psalm 37:4
Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

There you go. Now, Frumy, maybe you better stick to the present natural, where you are qualified to speak about?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Right, with transparent gold and you getting it on with Marilyn Monroe.

 

[dad]

Right, with transparent gold and you getting it on with Marilyn Monroe.

If she is there, why not? Heaven's eternal gold doesn't perish, and it is transparent. That means different than todays PO material. The stuff you are not qualified to speak about. Stick to what you are qualified to speak about. No need pretending.

 

[trivista]

If she is there, why not? Heaven's eternal gold doesn't perish, and it is transparent. That means different than todays PO material. The stuff you are not qualified to speak about. Stick to what you are qualified to speak about. No need pretending.

So having sex with others you aren't married to is OK in your version of heaven?

 

[dad]

So having sex with others you aren't married to is OK in your version of heaven?

Apparently marriage is somewhat of a different concept than it is at the present. For example, Jesus is marrying more than one single bride. A little out of our present understanding. But my opinion is that there is plenty for all.

 

[trivista]

Apparently marriage is somewhat of a different concept than it is at the present. For example, Jesus is marrying more than one single bride. A little out of our present understanding. But my opinion is that there is plenty for all.

Quoted

 

[The Lady Kate]

If she is there, why not?

Because there must be more to heaven than an excuse for you to indulge your physical, carnal desires.

Really, dad, if all you're looking for in heaven is a playground for all the sinful activities you would otherwise be committing here.... kindly do the faith a favor... and convert.

 

[dad]

Because there must be more to heaven than an excuse for you to indulge your physical, carnal desires.

Hey, how bad is going to an Elvis concert?

Really, dad, if all you're looking for in heaven is a playground for all the sinful activities you would otherwise be committing here.... kindly do the faith a favor... and convert.

Sex is no sin, certainly not in heaven. How ridiculous can you get? And why shouldn't we indulge, and have fun, and have some wine, and good music, and good food, etc in heaven? What do you think we are there for, suffering??? No.
If sex was so bad, why did God make 2 naked humans, and the first command was to multiply??
Nothing wrong with God created desires, and pleasures.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Sex is no sin, certainly not in heaven. How ridiculous can you get? And why shouldn't we indulge, and have fun, and have some wine, and good music, and good food, etc in heaven? What do you think we are there for, suffering??? No.
If sex was so bad, why did God make 2 naked humans, and the first command was to multiply??
Nothing wrong with God created desires, and pleasures.

And what makes you think that we shouldn't have fun, wine and sex here on earth?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Sex is no sin, certainly not in heaven. How ridiculous can you get? And why shouldn't we indulge, and have fun, and have some wine, and good music, and good food, etc in heaven? What do you think we are there for, suffering??? No.

Apparantly being in the presence of God doesn't interest you... you're looking forwared to an orgy.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

I think we might have underestimated dad. All these years, we thought of him as a typical fire-and-brimstone fundie with just some strange ideas about the past to separate him from all the others. But in reality, he is some kind of metaphysical hardcore-Epicurean, for whom heaven is drinking wine and bumping uglies with Marilyn Monroe. I like it.

Go dad!

 

[Quantic]

The folks who assert a different past (Dad is pretty much by himself here) have been shown evidence that the past is the same as the present. Specifically, data collected regarding supernova 1987A. I'm sure other evidence could be brought to bear on refuting the idea of a different past, but there isn't much need to. Why waste time on the unnecessary different past hypothesis?

One of the problems shared by Dad and others is the concept of evidence. They think that ideas written in a book are scientific evidence, when that isn't the case at all. Certainly, written text can be helpful in getting pointed in a fruitful direction in the quest of scientific discovery, but without evidence to backup the text, the text is of no use to science.

To the different past folks: what physical evidence do you have that supports the different past hypothesis?

 

[dad]

And what makes you think that we shouldn't have fun, wine and sex here on earth?

I don't know. What makes you think I think anything like that?

 

[dad]

The folks who assert a different past (Dad is pretty much by himself here) have been shown evidence that the past is the same as the present. Specifically, data collected regarding supernova 1987A.

False. That shows the universe is physical only, as well as the earth. No surprise there.

I'm sure other evidence could be brought to bear on refuting the idea of a different past, but there isn't much need to. Why waste time on the unnecessary different past hypothesis?

False, there is nothing you could bring up. You are blowing smoke.

One of the problems shared by Dad and others is the concept of evidence. They think that ideas written in a book are scientific evidence, when that isn't the case at all. Certainly, written text can be helpful in getting pointed in a fruitful direction in the quest of scientific discovery, but without evidence to backup the text, the text is of no use to science.

Nonsense.

To the different past folks: what physical evidence do you have that supports the different past hypothesis?

What physical evidence do you have ther is no heaven or spiritual? None. Science ONLY covers the natural. The past and the future seem to be more than the natural. You cannot imprison them with the natuaral only laws, unless they too are natural only. That you cannot prove.

 

[dad]

Apparantly being in the presence of God doesn't interest you... you're looking forwared to an orgy.

Sorry if you have some sort of sexual hang up. Don't worry, there may be a good hamburger simulation joint you could park it if you like, and eat twinkies all day.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Sorry if you have some sort of sexual hang up. Don't worry, there may be a good hamburger simulation joint you could park it if you like, and eat twinkies all day.

It's called morality... so far you've demonstrated lust, greed, pride, and gluttony... are there any sinful behaviors you're not looking forward to in your version of heaven?

 

[MarcylovestheQuakers]

Am I missing something on this discussion?

 

[RedAndy]

False. That shows the universe is physical only, as well as the earth. No surprise there.

If your distinction between "physical" and "supernatural" is correct, it shows that the universe was physical only at least 160,000 years ago (the distance in light years from Earth to the Large Magellanic Cloud, where Supernova 1987A was located). Unless, of course, you are willing to accept that radioactive decay rates and the speed of light have altered by precisely the right amount to mislead us into thinking this, which would be terribly unparsimonious.