The Problem of a Different Past

[dad]

"Negative" and "positive" are relative terms, applied by us according to how things benefit us.

Well, the sun ceasing to exist is the kind of negative I mean. The processes in place, and state of matter, and the universe now work to that end. In the future, it will be an eternal end they will be working at, a new process, and new heavens.
Some people also would consider it a positive thibg if they could lead a healty life for a thousand years. Imagine eternally?

Which would be understandably negative for you...

I think so.

As is.... but everything will continue as something else... why is that so frightening to you?

It is not real, so it is not frightening. I want to continue as me, than you very much, not as some cosmic star dust contribution!

So... quick question... would melting ice be an example of "decay"?

Not really.

But the sun is not an apple... it is not rotting, but converting matter from one state to another.

But, like an apple it will cease to exist, if the present were around long enough. Like a match, we light it, and it does not last forever.

Would you consider water evaporating to be "decay"?

Not really.

Of course we will, but what kind of foolishness is it to suggest that heaven will be nothing more than an improved version of Earth? Why limit ourselves?

This is our part of the new universe. We are not limited, as we can travel to the ends of the universe. Maybe move to some nice system there, if we like. We can always pop back to our gold city mansion eternal home, for a Christmas visit, faster than you can say 'merry Christmas'.

 

[crimsondeath]

But, like an apple it will cease to exist, if the present were around long enough. Like a match, we light it, and it does not last forever.

the molecules of the match last forever.

 

[AV1611VET]

So according to you, the best heaven can offer (food-wise) is fake meat?

Of ALL things, why are you guys worried about that? Are you afraid you're gonna starve in Heaven???

• ...whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

 

[crimsondeath]

• ...whose God is their belly,

if you eat god then he will be in your belly

 

[dad]

the molecules of the match last forever.

Not as the same apple. I am not to worried about my molecules contributing to the universe, I just want to live as the person I am.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Yes. There will be no more killing animals there for food. The lions will even eat straw like an ox, so the lambs will be safe. Etc.
But I have no doubt that the food of heaven is the best you could ever dream of. Probably BETTER than the present 'real' thing.

Better how? How can an imitation be aesthetically "better" than the genuine article it's meant to emulate?

For example... How could someone paint an "Imitation" Mona Lisa that was "better" than the real one?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Well, the sun ceasing to exist is the kind of negative I mean.

Negative only to those who depend on the sun for life... but once Jesus returns, that would become moot.

Who needs the sun when we'll have the Son?

The processes in place, and state of matter, and the universe now work to that end. In the future, it will be an eternal end they will be working at, a new process, and new heavens.

New heavens? What's wrong with the old heavens?

Some people also would consider it a positive thibg if they could lead a healty life for a thousand years. Imagine eternally?

Eternity on Earth? Even a "new and improved" Earth? What would be the point?

besides, we don't get eternity on Earth... just a thousand years...

I think so.

Not if you believe in an immortal soul which would keep on, regardless of your flesh-and-blood body becoming wormfood.

Of course, nobody... well, nobody sane by our standards... looks forward to dying, but why assume that the immorality Jesus promised us involves anything as paltry as the physical?

It is not real, so it is not frightening. I want to continue as me, than you very much, not as some cosmic star dust contribution!

It may very well be that God will not give any of us that option... to be attached to your body as such would be vanity...bordering on narcissism.

Not really.

Why not? The processes that melt ice are the same ones that keep the sun burning... if one stops, they all stop, don't they?

But, like an apple it will cease to exist, if the present were around long enough. Like a match, we light it, and it does not last forever.

Not in its current form... the "Apple" may be gone, but everything that made the apple what it is is still around.... just in a different form.

You may not want anything to be destroyed, but you don't realize that nothing ever is... at worst, it becomes unrecognizable.

Not really.

Again...same processes at work here. Why do you pick and choose?

This is our part of the new universe. We are not limited, as we can travel to the ends of the universe. Maybe move to some nice system there, if we like. We can always pop back to our gold city mansion eternal home, for a Christmas visit, faster than you can say 'merry Christmas'.

What makes you so sure that all we get is a bigger and better here and now?

Golden mansions? Such ostentatious displays of wealth might've helped Jesus express the beauty of heaven to his followers, but do you really want to live in a gold house? What would be the point?

For all your rantings against the physical, dad... you seem trapped by your obsession with it.

 

[dad]

Better how? How can an imitation be aesthetically "better" than the genuine article it's meant to emulate?

For example... How could someone paint an "Imitation" Mona Lisa that was "better" than the real one?

Easy. The genuine article has only been here for awhile for man, we never were created to eat meat. In our new bodies, our taste buds won't be messed up, so maybe we won't like it as much then?
But, should someone decide to maintain a perverted appetite, I can't see how the replicators and chefs of heaven couldn't come up with some real tasty dishes that really taste like meat dishes.
Let's give God the benefit of the doubt here, that He could swing it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'm not following you here --- freewill allowed the Fall.

You said that, in the pre-Fall universe, I am not allowed to shoot you in the head, even if I wished it. This is a restriction on my free will, something Christians usually vhemently protest.

Your question:

• So what would happen if I shot you in the head?

--- is a good example of the Genesis Barrier. IOW, we can only speculate, since it didn't happen.

Indeed we can. However, we are debating your speculation. While your Barrier is a valid consequence of rejecting empiricism, you must understand that you are rejecting empiricism. You cannot make valid speculations under this rejection.

IMO, the thought of shooting me in the head would not have ever occurred to you.

That is not the point. There is an outcome for every logically possible event, even if that outcome never occurs. Since it is possible for me to shoot you in the head, pre- or post-Fall, there must be an outcome.

In other words, entropy entered the universe after-the-fact, and in opposition to God's creation. Let me paraphrase:

• For God's creation was made subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but not by design...

You quote Romans 8:20: 'For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly'. How is this at all related to entropy, the Second Law, and the introduction of chaotic systems after the Fall?

No --- this unknown only exists because of the 'barrier', and this 'barrier' only exists because of the Fall.

On the contrary, the barrier is any limitation on our knowledge; it is not restricted to mutable physical laws.

Not the Flood --- the Fall --- Genesis 3.

My mistake. I have been talking to dad quite extensively on an issue rather like this, only pertaining to the Flood.

Any 'what if' questions prior to Genesis 3 cannot be answered with any sense of accuracy.

Is it not then reasonable to conclude that the 'different past' scenario is rather improbable?

No

...OK.
Why?

You can include the NKJV in that too, and if you want to start a new thread, I'll me more than happy to answer any of your questions to the best of my ability.

Very well.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Easy. The genuine article has only been here for awhile for man, we never were created to eat meat. In our new bodies, our taste buds won't be messed up, so maybe we won't like it as much then?

But I love a good cheesesteak! Fake food for fake tastebuds?

But, should someone decide to maintain a perverted appetite, I can't see how the replicators and chefs of heaven couldn't come up with some real tasty dishes that really taste like meat dishes.

Can anyone chow down on a fake, knowing it's a fake, and not wish for the real thing?

And what "replicators"? Am I to understand heaven to be like Star Trek?

Let's give God the benefit of the doubt here, that He could swing it.

Certainly... but not in the way you describe.

One would wonder why food would even be necessary... seems too much of a carnal delight for heaven, on second thought.

 

[dad]

Negative only to those who depend on the sun for life... but once Jesus returns, that would become moot.

Not true, I think it is a pretty decoration. Also, there will still be nations outside of the city on that new earth in need of some healing, and they will still need the sun, and grow crops, etc.

New heavens? What's wrong with the old heavens?

Ask God, He says there will be new ones, and these ones will forever be no more.
Besides, the state of the present physical only universe is one that is not eternal, as mentioned.

Eternity on Earth? Even a "new and improved" Earth? What would be the point?

Speaking of a point, I don't get yours. do you have something against earth? God is coming here to live forever, how bad could it be?

besides, we don't get eternity on Earth... just a thousand years...

No, that is just the first thousand. After that, the new heavens appear, and the city lands on earth.

Not if you believe in an immortal soul which would keep on, regardless of your flesh-and-blood body becoming wormfood.

We will have our bodies raised from the dead.

Of course, nobody... well, nobody sane by our standards... looks forward to dying, but why assume that the immorality Jesus promised us involves anything as paltry as the physical?

Just look at Him! The bible says we shall be like that. How was He after rising from the dead? He was spiritual in a lot of ways, yes, but He ate and drank with the deciples. He said to go ahead, and put a finger in the wounds, and see He was flesh and bone, and not just a spirit! Did you miss that?

It may very well be that God will not give any of us that option... to be attached to your body as such would be vanity...bordering on narcissism.

No it is fact bordering on absolute. We shall be raised from the dead in a twinkling of the eye.

Why not? The processes that melt ice are the same ones that keep the sun burning... if one stops, they all stop, don't they?

There is water in heaven, and there also will be a sun. The processes will be different to a large degree, yes.

Not in its current form... the "Apple" may be gone, but everything that made the apple what it is is still around.... just in a different form.

Yeah, well, the sun will really be the sun, and we will really be us, and Jesus will really be Jesus, and the bible characters living there will really be Moses, and Daniel, etc. And our parents, and relatives that are saved, and living there will be who they are as well.

You may not want anything to be destroyed, but you don't realize that nothing ever is... at worst, it becomes unrecognizable.

I'd like to be very recognizable, than you very much, and be able to recognize others. Maybe I'll take Marilyn Monroe to an Elvis concert.

Again...same processes at work here. Why do you pick and choose?

Freezing water does not kill me, the sun, the earth, or anything else I can think of. I don't see any big problem with maybe some wanting a little snow in their part of heaven once in a blue moon.

What makes you so sure that all we get is a bigger and better here and now?

Did I say that? Does flying off to the ends of the universe relegate us to a here and now?

Golden mansions? Such ostentatious displays of wealth might've helped Jesus express the beauty of heaven to his followers, but do you really want to live in a gold house? What would be the point?

What would you prefer, a little grass shack?? Put in your order, who knows?

For all your rantings against the physical, dad... you seem trapped by your obsession with it.

I don't know why you think I have something against the physical. I think it is an important part of creation. I think heaven is both, physical, and spiritual, together. Here, we just have the physical.

 

[dad]

But I love a good cheesesteak! Fake food for fake tastebuds?

Maybe your new slimmer self would somehow make do with the best cheesecake heaven could cook up.

Can anyone chow down on a fake, knowing it's a fake, and not wish for the real thing?

Easy, they realize it tastes better, and they can't go kill an animal anyhow.

And what "replicators"? Am I to understand heaven to be like Star Trek?

If there are miracles, where something just appears, or where water is turned into wine, or the cruse of oil never runs out, etc, how is that a stretch??

One would wonder why food would even be necessary... seems too much of a carnal delight for heaven, on second thought.

Who said it was necessary?

 

[crimsondeath]

if you go to heaven would their only be food that they ate in the old times or like pizza?

 

[dad]

if you go to heaven would their only be food that they ate in the old times or like pizza?

Like anything you want.

 

[crimsondeath]

how bout if you go to hell, what would you eat

 

[dad]

how bout if you go to hell, what would you eat

I was going to say, hot food. But I'll change that to hospital food.

 

[lemmings]

I was going to say, hot food. But I'll change that to hospital food.

Would this mean that everyone who has a genetic handicap is going to hell? If so, count me in! My best friend has CF and has been in and out of hospitals for the last 10 years and I was born with an underdeveloped lung leaving me in the hospital for the first 5 years of my life. Intelligent design? Only if the creator was a drunk who had no respect for life.

 

[dad]

Would this mean that everyone who has a genetic handicap is going to hell? If so, count me in! My best friend has CF and has been in and out of hospitals for the last 10 years and I was born with an underdeveloped lung leaving me in the hospital for the first 5 years of my life. Intelligent design? Only if the creator was a drunk who had no respect for life.

How you got all that from me trying to figure the worst food I could think of for hell, is beyond me.
Maybe I should have said 'prison food'?

 

[The Lady Kate]

I'd like to be very recognizable, than you very much, and be able to recognize others. Maybe I'll take Marilyn Monroe to an Elvis concert.

Why? What are your intentions with Marilyn Monroe?

Freezing water does not kill me, the sun, the earth, or anything else I can think of. I don't see any big problem with maybe some wanting a little snow in their part of heaven once in a blue moon.

But there won't be any snow. You've stopped the process that woul allow it to form... as well as allow it to melt.

And suppose someone else does have a problem with it?

Did I say that? Does flying off to the ends of the universe relegate us to a here and now?

You keep goig on about this universe, only changed.... don't you think there's something better?

What would you prefer, a little grass shack?? Put in your order, who knows?

Why the obsession with Gold?

I don't know why you think I have something against the physical. I think it is an important part of creation. I think heaven is both, physical, and spiritual, together. Here, we just have the physical.

You're against a physical past, you're against the physical in the future... you only accept the physical in the present becuase reality forces you to do so...

You've created a physical heaven to accomodate your physical needs, desires, and lusts. Who's to say there's anything physical in heaven?

 

[dad]

Why? What are your intentions with Marilyn Monroe?

A good time.

But there won't be any snow. You've stopped the process that woul allow it to form... as well as allow it to melt.

It could be arranged possibly locally, for some who want some.

And suppose someone else does have a problem with it?
They can not visit the snow folks that day.

You keep goig on about this universe, only changed.... don't you think there's something better?

Sounds better to me. It is the same in a lot of ways, yes.

Why the obsession with Gold?

Transparent gold is one of the main components of the city of God. Ask Him, He seems to like it.

You're against a physical past, you're against the physical in the future... you only accept the physical in the present becuase reality forces you to do so...

I am not against physical in the past or future, just the physical only. I think it will be in the true, eternal state, that is both, the physical and the spiritual.

You've created a physical heaven to accomodate your physical needs, desires, and lusts. Who's to say there's anything physical in heaven?

No, God created it, and describes it in the book. There are mansions, trees, rivers, peeople, animals, etc. As was pointed out already our bodies will be like Jesus after He arose. That was both, spiritual, and physical.
I expect it will be a real interesting, and fun place. Wise virgins, and all.