The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

[SaintJoeNow]

Joe, I'm keeping this simple.

You don't know what 1 Peter is about. You don't know who it is written to. You don't know why Peter said to the people receiving the letter to be Holy.

Your message is this(overdramatized): If you don't act the way 1 Peter 1:13-17 tells you to act, You aren't holy. Don't even drink alcohol. Don't go on the internet. Don't watch TV. Don't read books unless their approved by me, because God tells me who to read. Don't go to the beach. Don't wear shorts. Don't get married because you can't be completely dedicated to God only. Don't play video games. Don't play card games. Don't play any games because they don't promote Holiness. Don't eat at bars. Don't eat pork. Don't eat leavened bread. Don't work on Sundays. Don't read any Bible except the KJV or you aren't holy.

Peter's message: Be Holy in order to show the love of Christ to those who don't know Christ. Don't use your freedom in Christ to blind those who don't know God. You were bought with a price. Don't forget why Christ died for you. If your a slave, love your owner in the love of Christ, EVEN if he is abusive. In your country, respect and honor authority in the love of Christ, even if they are abusive to you. Don't suffer on account of ungodly actions. Suffering is coming. Be Holy in order to show the love of Christ. Remember the sacrifice in which Christ saved you.

I have my doubts about what you are trying to say

ok

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Joe you may as well just say "I am going to believe the KJV is right, even if it is not, because it makes it easier for me".

Well I'm not stupid so I would not say that. I believe God's word is preserved and I'm happy knowing God preserved His word. You don't have to believe it, you can say His word has errors if you want to, that is ground where angels fear to tread and I won't be standing next to you when you say things like that.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

why can I find nobody to explain the value of believing God's word is not preserved and given to us in English?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

why can I find nobody to explain the value of believing God's word is not preserved and given to us in English exactly as He wanted us to have it? Is there something wrong with believing God's word is not preserved in English so people don't want to talk about why they value that belief?

 

[FredVB]

I have already mentioned the end of chapter 21 in 2 Chronicles into chapter 22. The logic alone shows the real inspiration is not preserved intact to be transmitted into the King James Bible. Though it was alleged I speak against the Bible, nothing is further from the truth. It isn't appropriate to make personal remarks in response. It is said there is information online explaining this away, but as this example shows logic, that is not possible, and as others can see these posts, it is showing that nothing for saying it can be explained away is shown in responses.

You can be dismissive with bluffing but I have known about such inconsistency long before I was using internet. It is basically errors of numbers from the Hebrew script in copies and this is not saying there were the errors in the original writing. But the fact is the King James Bible has the inconsistency too from that, it can't itself be inerrant with that, and there is avoidance answering to that. And there are other things I could show. Of course I know that the original writing of the Hebrew scriptures were filled with the revealed name of God, that we render Yahweh, the name that is to be remembered. The King James Version, as most other versions, differs from those writings with "the LORD" put in place of that name in most passages where it occurs, and so is not truly faithful to the original writing in that, but going with a convention, not from faultless result of God's Spirit guiding.

This has nothing to do with me claiming to being faultless with God's Spirit leading. This is about the claim of the King James version being the preserved text of the Bible in English with it then inerrant, which would need with that to be the faultless result of God's Spirit leading the translators that worked on the King James Bible.

Now please, I know you mean well by saying you have God' Spirit to guide you into truth and I am glad that you have God's Spirit because it proves you are my brother or sister in Christ. God's Spirit will always agree with His word, and hopefully you will realize that God's word is preserved and it is by His word that we know His Spirit is leading us into truth. Without the standard of God's word, we have no evidence that the Spirit is leading us into truth and it's not just our own spirit leading us into whatever we decide is true.

Try to understand and explain what you are saying. It must be in one of these questions, at least one of the following questions must explain what you are trying to say:

Are you saying God's Sprit is leading you but was not leading the translators of His word so they really were not His chosen translators? Are you saying you are more led of God than those translators were? Are you saying you are equally led of God as they were and you make mistakes and fail to obey God in translating His word to get it right the same as you are saying they failed to obey God and get it right, because you believe it is not possible to get it right but it is possible to get it close to being right and you are closer to being right than the translators of God's word were? I don't see any other options for explaining your belief when you do not believe God's word, do you see any other option? If so, please tell me what they are.

I'm only believing God's word and not trying to re-translate it or cast doubt on God's word or His translators. Believing God gave me His word in English simplifies things, and the issue really is simple the same as the gospel is so simple a child can understand. A child can understand that if I write a letter, and somebody comes along and changes it, it is no longer my letter and is fraudulent. If I am going to have that letter translated into the child's language, I am going to chose the translators and make sure they get my word exactly in writing exactly as I want it. Is God less concerned and less powerful than I would be in such a situation?......God's word is precious to Him and to us and that is why He preserved it to give it to us and I thank Him so much for doing it.

. and knowing God chose English in advance for His word (and yes His word is preserve in other languages, there is a Spanish version where persecutions proved the faith of the translators who obeyed God to bring His word to the Spanish speaking world.) because God knew English was going to become the nearly universal language of the world and God knew America would be the bread basket of the world by which He shed light of His word into a world long darkened in the dark ages under Catholicism.

God cares about His word being preserved and unquestionable and that is exactly why He worked through His chosen translators to bring His word to the English speaking world. God chose William Tyndale as the central figure in this work, and William Tyndale obeyed God in the matter knowing it would probably cost him his life due to the Catholic church's desperation to maintain control it was losing after God's word began appearing in English, the light of God's word bringing the Protestant reformation, and the light of God's word breaking up the centuries of the dark Ages under Catholic oppression. The ruthlessness of Catholic Inquisitions still had a strong lust for blood from opposition. Calvin succeeded in staving off Catholic oppression by ruling Geneva with an iron fist and bringing us the Geneva Bible in English. Tyndale under threat of the bishops and threats of Calvinists and threats of Catholics obeyed God to bring His word to the English speaking world untainted by Calvinistic or Catholic influence and prayed while being burned at the stake, "Lord open the King's eyes". It is recorded that flames were coming out from his mouth as he spoke these words, and God answered that prayer and God directed the King of England to commission the authorized version of His word. God authorizes His own word, and as God chose Tyndale, God chose his translators by using the King of England to commission them to translate His word, and God Himself made sure His word was given to us in English. The devil wants to deny God's word, and modern versions with their appeal for intellectual ascendancy in criticizing the text and manuscripts and his insistence that God's word always has, and always will have errors and cannot be proven purely God's word even in the originals because they are lost and gone and the devil lies to say people made errors and God's word is lost. God always has and always will preserve His word, and fake versions with mistakes and lies will always be used to try to disprove God's word as they are used today.

That is one of the comparisons used by atheists who enjoy believing they can prove God's word is full of errors and lies. An atheist knows that your claim of having God's Spirit to guide you into truth is no better than the atheist's spirit guiding him to deny God when both you and the atheist agree there is no reliable written word of God and what is called God's word is riddled with self-contradiction which implies God negates Himself and therefore there is no God. God preserved His word to deny such allegations against Him. Even an atheist knows God is powerless and self-negated if His word has lies and errors, and you as an imperfect being cannot produce God's perfect word. I know God has given me His word, and all of those accusations of error can be explained when you believe God and let His word be the guide and quit letting human reasoning be the guide by which you twist God's word to try to say is it errors or lies.

Your objection accusing God of not preserving His word in Chronicle and in all other places in God's preserved word (and you know I am not talking about versions of God's word which change His word) is answerable and easily explained to show it is you who is confused in the matter and not God who is confused in His word, and lacking in power to keep His word pure and true.
I have done all of those arguments probably twenty times in debating with atheist, and you can do it too. The internet makes it easy. I will not give you the Bible explanation for what you say is wrong In Chronicles because you can easily do it for yourself. If you won't do it yourself when it is so easy, it will be a waste of time for me to do it for you because you will probably reject God in the issue of His word and stand in your pride claiming you have proof His word is erroneous and therefore cannot be His word. In concern for you, I'm trying to show you that ou are treading where angels fear to tread.

The value of knowing God's word is preserved is in part knowing atheist cannot say anything against it. I would much rather let God's word change and correct me rather than for me to try to change and correct God's word, accusing Him of not caring enough about what He said to keep it pure. God cares about what He said and He has preserved it because He is God and it's His word and it judges me. When things seem hard to understand, the last thing I am going to do is say God's word made mistakes and if you let God's word be the rule of interpreting His word, you can find answers to your Chronicles objections suitable for silencing the biggest atheist mouth in the world. By using the same arguments against God's word as atheists use, you are emboldening them in their rebellion against God and you have to answer to God, according to HIS PRESERVED WORD, for doing that kind of thing.

Any future posts you make in opposition in this thread I am referring you back to the last post or two in which I answered you and I think that's more than enough.

I didn't know that what I post is really so hard for any to be understood. Again, I am not talking in this communication about my being led by God's Spirit, I am talking in this about the translation for the King James Bible, which is the subject of this thread. The translators never made the claim for it that is promoting it as the preserved text. The truth is preserved, but we can't say with any translation that we have every word intact and understood. This is clearly not the case with every number that is represented and translated in our versions. The problem with the end of chapter 21 in 2 Chronicles into chapter 22 is not answered, what we read from it is an impossibility. And there are other problems. This is, again, not any claim agains the Bible as God's word. We have enough material from the Bible to construct what is the truth, that is preserved, but it was the original writing that was wholy the word of Yahweh God. With the King James translation being the preserved text of the Bible in English it would be then inerrant, such as I show it isn't, so that it would not be the faultless result of God's Spirit leading the translators that worked on it. And what about Yahweh God's name being removed from every occurance where it was originally written, which I brought up?

 

[hedrick]

[deleted - posted in wrong thread]

 

[SaintJoeNow]

God loves you if you believe His word is preserved or not. I think it's better knowing His word is preserved, but you will never know that if you won't believe His word is preserved...and even though you believe His word is chock full of errors, I can still assure you because I know His word is preserved and in it I read that He loves you.

God loves you and so doo I

 

[tall73]

why can I find nobody to explain the value of believing God's word is not preserved and given to us in English?

You were already given the answer. It is not about whether it would be preferable for the KJV to be a perfect translation. It is not about whether there is "value" in that. The question is whether it is true. And it is not.

The numerous examples point that out. So instead of saying there is "value" in holding the positon, why not show the position is true? Go address the examples raised, and explain the texts presented. No more excuses about how you explained it all 20 years ago. If you won't back up your theory, and the evidence is already presented against it, how do you expect us to buy in?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

If you want to believe God's word is not preserved

You were already given the answer. It is not about whether it would be preferable for the KJV to be a perfect translation. It is not about whether there is "value" in that. The question is whether it is true. And it is not.

The numerous examples point that out. So instead of saying there is "value" in holding the positon, why not show the position is true? Go address the examples raised, and explain the texts presented. No more excuses about how you explained it all 20 years ago. If you won't back up your theory, and the evidence is already presented against it, how do you expect us to buy in?

What is at the root of your belief? Why do you feel it is important to believe God's word is not preserved? Believing we do not have God's word preserved obviously does something for you because your belief compels you to come here and argue against the OP. Why? I don't get it.

I am thankful to God for caring enough to give me His word preserved the same as He made sure it was preserved by the holy men of God he first gave it to. It's beautiful, empowering, comforting, simple, encouraging with and in knowing God to know that He gave me His word preserved in my own language and I don't have to search for the lost originals or criticize manuscripts to find it. I have it, God chose men to do the work for me and they obeyed Him at the price of their lives in defiance of rulers who opposed them. It's beautiful, cherished, precious, .........HUMBLING!!!!!!!

What are you thankful for in relation to believing God's word is not preserved? anything?

I'm trying to help you put some words on the value of believing God's word is not preserved. How does that belief enrich you? How does it give you confidence in God? What does it do for you that is positive?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You were already given the answer. It is not about whether it would be preferable for the KJV to be a perfect translation. It is not about whether there is "value" in that. The question is whether it is true. And it is not.

The numerous examples point that out. So instead of saying there is "value" in holding the positon, why not show the position is true? Go address the examples raised, and explain the texts presented. No more excuses about how you explained it all 20 years ago. If you won't back up your theory, and the evidence is already presented against it, how do you expect us to buy in?

Tell God his word is a theory and see what He thinks about that. I think you are treading where angels fear to tread. I thank God for His word, I don't question His word.

 

[FredVB]

I believe God's word though it is said back to me that I don't to dismiss what I brought up. The points are not addressed yet. We have what is reliable from the Bible from what fallible human translators have provided for many versions without a divinely preserved text in our own separate language and there isn't a problem as alleged.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I believe God's word though it is said back to me that I don't to dismiss what I brought up. The points are not addressed yet. We have what is reliable from the Bible from what fallible human translators have provided for many versions without a divinely preserved text in our own separate language and there isn't a problem as alleged.

I see no value in criticizing God's word and saying it's not His word. What does it do for you to believe God's word is not his word except for when it passes your critical judgment?

I don't like to waste time with textual criticisms. God gave me His word and I submit to Him and I don't try to make His word submit to me and I reject all textual criticisms which attempt to imply God's word is not preserved. I do not care for complicate arguments of textual criticism. I can easily show the evidence that God's word is preserved, but people who won't believe it won't believe it. All modern version are imposters, fraudulent, charade books sold as God's word when they are not God's word. The King James Bible is God's word in English. I know it's His word because I know He wrote it and did not allow you or anybody before you or after you to change it. A lot of people pretended they were changing it, and now we have around 300 books claiming to be God's word when only one is God's word which cannot be changed. God doesn't change His word, He keeps His word and I thank God that He gave me a copy of it.

You can't have it if you won't believe it.....and I don't see any value in believing God's word is not preserved., I see no value in believing God did not choose his translators and He needs editors and publishers of modern versions to choose his translators. It's done. God gave me His word. It's good to know I have His word.


Why in the world people think they need to take that away from me is baffling.....nobody ever got hurt by believing they have God's word. A lot of people have ended up in Hell because they were told not to trust that God's word is His word.

 

[tall73]

So what is the value of believing that?

One does not test whether something is true by asking "what is the value of believing that""

I can believe I am the queen of England. Are you going to test that by

a. noting I am not a woman
b. noting I am not of English extraction or citizenship
c. noting I am not of the correct line

Or by asking "what is the value of believing that?"


Joe, if you are not going to address the evidence then stop your speeches.

 

[tall73]

Tell God his word is a theory and see what He thinks about that. I think you are treading where angels fear to tread. I thank God for His word, I don't question His word.

Joe, God's word is not a theory. Your completely unsupported notion that the KJV is a perfect Bible is the theory being referenced.

If you won't discuss the examples, then there is nothing more to say.

 

[tall73]

Let's summarize.

-Jack and Joe claim the KJV is perfect.
-people posted many specific examples that show this not to be the case.
-Joe makes no effort to address these examples and instead tries to say we are rejecting God's word by not believing his baseless claim about the KJV.
-Jack won't address specific examples either.

Until you address the examples raised there is not point in your speeches.

 

[4x4toy]

Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding .. Starting with God's Word
... If you keep playing off base you will get picked off .. Choose to believe it from the first letter to the last .. It is the right choice ..

 

[tall73]

Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding .. Starting with God's Word
... If you keep playing off base you will get picked off .. Choose to believe it from the first letter to the last .. It is the right choice ..

If it is your view that God's word is perfectly preserved in the KJV, by all means you may address the examples in this thread as well.

I have not seen anyone in this thread say that we should not follow God's word. However, a number have had difficulty with the false claim about the KJV that even its translators did not make.

 

[4x4toy]

If it is your view that God's word is perfectly preserved in the KJV, by all means you may address the examples in this thread as well.

I have not seen anyone in this thread say that we should not follow God's word. However, a number have had difficulty with the false claim about the KJV that even its translators did not make.

Not trying to win an argument here , I went through the KJV argument years ago and kinda put it aside in favor of newer translations and I still think they are extremely profitable .. Through the years I found a new reverence and respect for the KJV .. Learning about William Tyndal and his contribution , his mastery of several languages , his willful suffering , desire and dedication to translating Gods Word and eventual martyrdom that we could be blessed by his work of God .. I now find the KJV the most sober and powerful verse by verse translation available .. I have and use many translations but if I counted them as friends my KJV now is my oldest and most trusted friend .. Quirks here and there , maybe , maybe not .. The big picture is that I think I see without the board in my eye ..

 

[FredVB]

I believe God's word though it is said back to me that I don't, to dismiss what I brought up. The points are not addressed yet. We have what is reliable from the Bible from what fallible human translators have provided for many versions without a divinely preserved text in our own separate language and there isn't a problem as alleged.

I see no value in criticizing God's word and saying it's not His word. What does it do for you to believe God's word is not his word except for when it passes your critical judgment?
I don't like to waste time with textual criticisms. God gave me His word and I submit to Him and I don't try to make His word submit to me and I reject all textual criticisms which attempt to imply God's word is not preserved. I do not care for complicate arguments of textual criticism. I can easily show the evidence that God's word is preserved, but people who won't believe it won't believe it. All modern version are imposters, fraudulent, charade books sold as God's word when they are not God's word. The King James Bible is God's word in English. I know it's His word because I know He wrote it and did not allow you or anybody before you or after you to change it. A lot of people pretended they were changing it, and now we have around 300 books claiming to be God's word when only one is God's word which cannot be changed. God doesn't change His word, He keeps His word and I thank God that He gave me a copy of it.
You can't have it if you won't believe it.....and I don't see any value in believing God's word is not preserved., I see no value in believing God did not choose his translators and He needs editors and publishers of modern versions to choose his translators. It's done. God gave me His word. It's good to know I have His word.
Why in the world people think they need to take that away from me is baffling.....nobody ever got hurt by believing they have God's word. A lot of people have ended up in Hell because they were told not to trust that God's word is His word.

But I am not offering textual criticism. I also do not say that God's word is not preserved, the truth is that it does not have to be preserved in English for that. If it is something that can be shown that the KJB is the preserved text of God's word, then have it shown. I do not merely say there are faults in the KJB, I show it, the argument for the KJB being the preserved text is not showing it to be so, it is just said. If any believe it still without the basis for knowing it that the text is God's word preserved in English, with not dealing with what I point out, they believe then from 2 Chronicles 21 and 22 that Ahaziah was older than his own father, and that there is no problem not only with that being illogical but also there is no problem with its contradiction with other scripture. They would believe that though God's word is preserved in English, any deviation from the manuscripts that they are translated from show the manuscripts were all corrupted rather than any faults in the English translation, such as with God's name that was throughout the Hebrew manuscripts.

And what about the changes that we know about already done with that Authorized Version? And why is such divisiveness among believers necessary? Show how people went to hell for doubting the KJB as the preservation itself of God's word.

 

[hedrick]

If you want to believe God's word is not preserved

What is at the root of your belief? Why do you feel it is important to believe God's word is not preserved? Believing we do not have God's word preserved obviously does something for you because your belief compels you to come here and argue against the OP. Why? I don't get it.

I'm concerned about the approach you seem to be taking to truth. It's not just in this posting. Most of us think that something is true because there's a good reason to support it. Evidence, inspiration, whatever. You seem to have the idea that we should believe in something because we like it.

I certainly hope you believe in the authority of Scripture because you have a good reason, not because it’s pleasant to think that you know the absolute truth.

What’s at the root of belief that there are errors in the KJV are the presence of things in the KJV that disagree with the evidence in the manuscripts. People don’t believe this because they want to discredit God’s Word, but because the evidence causes them to believe it. I hope you believe that there are no errors because you also have a good reason for it, and not because you like the idea or it makes you feel more confident in your faith.

For most of us, the fact that there is good reason to think something is true is enough to make us want to believe it.