The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

[SaintJoeNow]

I have already mentioned the end of chapter 21 in 2 Chronicles into chapter 22. The logic alone shows the real inspiration is not preserved intact to be transmitted into the King James Bible. Though it was alleged I speak against the Bible, nothing is further from the truth. It isn't appropriate to make personal remarks in response. It is said there is information online explaining this away, but as this example shows logic, that is not possible, and as others can see these posts, it is showing that nothing for saying it can be explained away is shown in responses.

You can be dismissive with bluffing but I have known about such inconsistency long before I was using internet. It is basically errors of numbers from the Hebrew script in copies and this is not saying there were the errors in the original writing. But the fact is the King James Bible has the inconsistency too from that, it can't itself be inerrant with that, and there is avoidance answering to that. And there are other things I could show. Of course I know that the original writing of the Hebrew scriptures were filled with the revealed name of God, that we render Yahweh, the name that is to be remembered. The King James Version, as most other versions, differs from those writings with "the LORD" put in place of that name in most passages where it occurs, and so is not truly faithful to the original writing in that, but going with a convention, not from faultless result of God's Spirit guiding.

This has nothing to do with me claiming to being faultless with God's Spirit leading. This is about the claim of the King James version being the preserved text of the Bible in English with it then inerrant, which would need with that to be the faultless result of God's Spirit leading the translators that worked on the King James Bible.

Now please, I know you mean well by saying you have God' Spirit to guide you into truth and I am glad that you have God's Spirit because it proves you are my brother or sister in Christ. God's Spirit will always agree with His word, and hopefully you will realize that God's word is preserved and it is by His word that we know His Spirit is leading us into truth. Without the standard of God's word, we have no evidence that the Spirit is leading us into truth and it's not just our own spirit leading us into whatever we decide is true.

Try to understand and explain what you are saying. It must be in one of these questions, at least one of the following questions must explain what you are trying to say:

Are you saying God's Sprit is leading you but was not leading the translators of His word so they really were not His chosen translators? Are you saying you are more led of God than those translators were? Are you saying you are equally led of God as they were and you make mistakes and fail to obey God in translating His word to get it right the same as you are saying they failed to obey God and get it right, because you believe it is not possible to get it right but it is possible to get it close to being right and you are closer to being right than the translators of God's word were? I don't see any other options for explaining your belief when you do not believe God's word, do you see any other option? If so, please tell me what they are.


I'm only believing God's word and not trying to re-translate it or cast doubt on God's word or His translators. Believing God gave me His word in English simplifies things, and the issue really is simple the same as the gospel is so simple a child can understand. A child can understand that if I write a letter, and somebody comes along and changes it, it is no longer my letter and is fraudulent. If I am going to have that letter translated into the child's language, I am going to chose the translators and make sure they get my word exactly in writing exactly as I want it. Is God less concerned and less powerful than I would be in such a situation?......God's word is precious to Him and to us and that is why He preserved it to give it to us and I thank Him so much for doing it.

. and knowing God chose English in advance for His word (and yes His word is preserve in other languages, there is a Spanish version where persecutions proved the faith of the translators who obeyed God to bring His word to the Spanish speaking world.) because God knew English was going to become the nearly universal language of the world and God knew America would be the bread basket of the world by which He shed light of His word into a world long darkened in the dark ages under Catholicism.

God cares about His word being preserved and unquestionable and that is exactly why He worked through His chosen translators to bring His word to the English speaking world. God chose William Tyndale as the central figure in this work, and William Tyndale obeyed God in the matter knowing it would probably cost him his life due to the Catholic church's desperation to maintain control it was losing after God's word began appearing in English, the light of God's word bringing the Protestant reformation, and the light of God's word breaking up the centuries of the dark Ages under Catholic oppression. The ruthlessness of Catholic Inquisitions still had a strong lust for blood from opposition. Calvin succeeded in staving off Catholic oppression by ruling Geneva with an iron fist and bringing us the Geneva Bible in English. Tyndale under threat of the bishops and threats of Calvinists and threats of Catholics obeyed God to bring His word to the English speaking world untainted by Calvinistic or Catholic influence and prayed while being burned at the stake, "Lord open the King's eyes". It is recorded that flames were coming out from his mouth as he spoke these words, and God answered that prayer and God directed the King of England to commission the authorized version of His word. God authorizes His own word, and as God chose Tyndale, God chose his translators by using the King of England to commission them to translate His word, and God Himself made sure His word was given to us in English. The devil wants to deny God's word, and modern versions with their appeal for intellectual ascendancy in criticizing the text and manuscripts and his insistence that God's word always has, and always will have errors and cannot be proven purely God's word even in the originals because they are lost and gone and the devil lies to say people made errors and God's word is lost. God always has and always will preserve His word, and fake versions with mistakes and lies will always be used to try to disprove God's word as they are used today.



That is one of the comparisons used by atheists who enjoy believing they can prove God's word is full of errors and lies. An atheist knows that your claim of having God's Spirit to guide you into truth is no better than the atheist's spirit guiding him to deny God when both you and the atheist agree there is no reliable written word of God and what is called God's word is riddled with self-contradiction which implies God negates Himself and therefore there is no God. God preserved His word to deny such allegations against Him. Even an atheist knows God is powerless and self-negated if His word has lies and errors, and you as an imperfect being cannot produce God's perfect word. I know God has given me His word, and all of those accusations of error can be explained when you believe God and let His word be the guide and quit letting human reasoning be the guide by which you twist God's word to try to say is it errors or lies.

Your objection accusing God of not preserving His word in Chronicle and in all other places in God's preserved word (and you know I am not talking about versions of God's word which change His word) is answerable and easily explained to show it is you who is confused in the matter and not God who is confused in His word, and lacking in power to keep His word pure and true.
I have done all of those arguments probably twenty times in debating with atheist, and you can do it too. The internet makes it easy. I will not give you the Bible explanation for what you say is wrong In Chronicles because you can easily do it for yourself. If you won't do it yourself when it is so easy, it will be a waste of time for me to do it for you because you will probably reject God in the issue of His word and stand in your pride claiming you have proof His word is erroneous and therefore cannot be His word. In concern for you, I'm trying to show you that ou are treading where angels fear to tread.

The value of knowing God's word is preserved is in part knowing atheist cannot say anything against it. I would much rather let God's word change and correct me rather than for me to try to change and correct God's word, accusing Him of not caring enough about what He said to keep it pure. God cares about what He said and He has preserved it because He is God and it's His word and it judges me. When things seem hard to understand, the last thing I am going to do is say God's word made mistakes and if you let God's word be the rule of interpreting His word, you can find answers to your Chronicles objections suitable for silencing the biggest atheist mouth in the world. By using the same arguments against God's word as atheists use, you are emboldening them in their rebellion against God and you have to answer to God, according to HIS PRESERVED WORD, for doing that kind of thing.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I have already mentioned the end of chapter 21 in 2 Chronicles into chapter 22. The logic alone shows the real inspiration is not preserved intact to be transmitted into the King James Bible. Though it was alleged I speak against the Bible, nothing is further from the truth. It isn't appropriate to make personal remarks in response. It is said there is information online explaining this away, but as this example shows logic, that is not possible, and as others can see these posts, it is showing that nothing for saying it can be explained away is shown in responses.

You can be dismissive with bluffing but I have known about such inconsistency long before I was using internet. It is basically errors of numbers from the Hebrew script in copies and this is not saying there were the errors in the original writing. But the fact is the King James Bible has the inconsistency too from that, it can't itself be inerrant with that, and there is avoidance answering to that. And there are other things I could show. Of course I know that the original writing of the Hebrew scriptures were filled with the revealed name of God, that we render Yahweh, the name that is to be remembered. The King James Version, as most other versions, differs from those writings with "the LORD" put in place of that name in most passages where it occurs, and so is not truly faithful to the original writing in that, but going with a convention, not from faultless result of God's Spirit guiding.

This has nothing to do with me claiming to being faultless with God's Spirit leading. This is about the claim of the King James version being the preserved text of the Bible in English with it then inerrant, which would need with that to be the faultless result of God's Spirit leading the translators that worked on the King James Bible.

Any future posts you make in opposition in this thread I am referring you back to the last post or two in which I answered you and I think that's more than enough.

 

[hedrick]

You still didn't show me any value to believing that God did not care enough to keep His word unchangeable.

Many of us are committed to truth. We think there is value in believing things that are true, and rejecting things that are false. In this case, believing something that it false can cause a person to attack other Christians who haven't done anything to deserve it, and can lead people to unjustified confidence that they understand the meaning of passages in Scripture which in fact they do not understand.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I'm only believing God's word and not trying to re-translate it or cast doubt on God's word or His translators.

Your posts prove that you are not believing “God’s word,” but instead an unspecified edition of the KJV that you incorrectly presume is “God’s word” in spite of the fact that it has been proven in this thread and in many other places that all of the editions of the KJV include significant translation errors and other kinds of errors, and very numerous instances of archaic language. This presumption, if you would keep it to yourself, would harm only you; but you have not kept it to yourself, but have, based upon the incorrect presumption, accused other Christians who believe and practice the truth of being liars and deceivers.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Many of us are committed to truth. We think there is value in believing things that are true, and rejecting things that are false. In this case, believing something that it false can cause a person to attack other Christians who haven't done anything to deserve it, and can lead people to unjustified confidence that they understand the meaning of passages in Scripture which in fact they do not understand.

Well I don't know who you are talking about. If you are trying to make a personal attack on somebody, can you be specific and name that person? Is it really necessary to bring stuff like that into the discussion of believing God's word is preserved?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Your posts prove that you are not believing “God’s word,” but instead an unspecified edition of the KJV that you incorrectly presume is “God’s word” in spite of the fact that it has been proven in this thread and in many other places that all of the editions of the KJV include significant translation errors and other kinds of errors, and very numerous instances of archaic language. This presumption, if you would keep it to yourself, would harm only you; but you have not kept it to yourself, but have, based upon the incorrect presumption, accused other Christians who believe and practice the truth of being liars and deceivers.

You have only proved that you do not believe God's word is preserved and you want me to shut up. It never hurt anybody to believe God's word is preserved, and I think it is easy to prove the opposite that it is a tremendous value for people to believe God's word is preserved. If you don't want to believe it you don't have to believe it, but I think you are missing out because I know the blessings you are missing out on.

There are multitudes who believe the same as me that God's word is preserved, and I do not know one of them who is hurt by believing that; except for being attacked by people like you who feel offended by our faith. All I know who believe God's word is preserved are enriched by the confidence they have in God's word and feel blessed by the simplicity of knowing God said exactly what He said to them in their own language, and they ask God to change them according to His word rather than try to change God's word according to their own feelings and opinions which are far below God's....as God in his word says, "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and my ways are higher than your ways" That is the issue in the belief or disbelief in God preserving His word. If God's word is preserved, then we must always be in submission to His word. If His word Is not preserved, then we can elevate our intellects as being His translators.

.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Your posts prove that you are not believing “God’s word,” but instead an unspecified edition of the KJV that you incorrectly presume is “God’s word” in spite of the fact that it has been proven in this thread and in many other places that all of the editions of the KJV include significant translation errors and other kinds of errors, and very numerous instances of archaic language. This presumption, if you would keep it to yourself, would harm only you; but you have not kept it to yourself, but have, based upon the incorrect presumption, accused other Christians who believe and practice the truth of being liars and deceivers.

Can you use God's word to show me that I am not believing God's word so I can be corrected to believe God's word?


No you cannot, because you believe God's word is not preserved. You are tying to make me believe God's word is not preserved, so whatever it is you want me to believe it cannot possibly be God's word. I have God's word next to me while I'm typing, His love letter to mankind calling for all to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell, and instructing His people on how to walk, talk, and think in this world and know Him to glorify Himself. It's powerful believing God's word is preserved because His word is powerful and when you know you have it, you know you are plugged in to His power.. It's Him arguing for His word in His word by His word. I'm not going to argue against Him, I will thank Him for keeping His word and giving he His promise of eternal life. I know it's God's word because God said it's His word. You can't take that away from me no matter what you say or do, sorry...God gave me His word. You can have it too if you will believe it, but I guess you won't.

 

[hedrick]

Your posts prove that you are not believing “God’s word,” but instead an unspecified edition of the KJV that you incorrectly presume is “God’s word” in spite of the fact that it has been proven in this thread and in many other places that all of the editions of the KJV include significant translation errors and other kinds of errors, and very numerous instances of archaic language. This presumption, if you would keep it to yourself, would harm only you; but you have not kept it to yourself, but have, based upon the incorrect presumption, accused other Christians who believe and practice the truth of being liars and deceivers.

I'm not attacking anyone. You asked what benefit might come from believing the evidence about accuracy of the KJV. My response is that there's always a benefit from believing the truth, and in this case there are specific problems with rejecting it.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I'm not attacking anyone. You asked what benefit might come from believing the evidence about accuracy of the KJV. My response is that there's always a benefit from believing the truth, and in this case there are specific problems with rejecting it.

well it sure sounded like you were attacking somebody personally. Personally, I have no problem rejecting your belief because I see no value in believing God's word is not preserved.

You do not believe evidence about the King James Bible being God's word. You believe contrived accusations against it being God's word. I don't believe what you believe, I believe the Bible is God's word and there is only one Bible which excludes all the fake Bibles. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

You have not explained any benefit of believing God's word is not preserved. What does that belief do for you?

 

[kiwimac]

God never promised to preserve His word in English or any other language for that matter.

 

[tall73]

I was hoping Jack would come back to discuss in this thread. However, it looks like his account now says "guest"? Is that due to the software transition

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You have only proved that you do not believe God's word is preserved and you want me to shut up. It never hurt anybody to believe God's word is preserved, and I think it is easy to prove the opposite that it is a tremendous value for people to believe God's word is preserved. If you don't want to believe it you don't have to believe it, but I think you are missing out because I know the blessings you are missing out on.

There are multitudes who believe the same as me that God's word is preserved, and I do not know one of them who is hurt by believing that; except for being attacked by people like you who feel offended by our faith. All I know who believe God's word is preserved are enriched by the confidence they have in God's word and feel blessed by the simplicity of knowing God said exactly what He said to them in their own language, and they ask God to change them according to His word rather than try to change God's word according to their own feelings and opinions which are far below God's....as God in his word says, "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and my ways are higher than your ways" That is the issue in the belief or disbelief in God preserving His word. If God's word is preserved, then we must always be in submission to His word. If His word Is not preserved, then we can elevate our intellects as being His translators.

As I have already posted, there is nothing, absolutely nothing more important to me than the truth. One of the most evil and destructive lies commonly taught by radicalized Christian fundamentalists is the lie that the KJV, and it alone, is the perfectly preserved word of God. The most commonly cited edition of the KJV is the 1769 oxford edition edited by Benjamin Blayney, even though the 1760 Cambridge edition by Francis Sawyer Parris was the culmination of twenty years work. Since 1769, the demand by the public for a standard edition of the KJV resulted in Cambridge University accepting Blayney’s edition as their standard text as well (but with a few minor differences). Even though the 1769 edition corrected the 1611 edition in about 24,000 places, the 1769 edition has undergone a few minor revisions that are found in current Oxford and Cambridge editions of the KJV. Further corrections are needed, but they are in passages that are so frequently quoted that very few editions of the KJV have corrected them.


The facts could neither be more clear nor more certain; the King James translation of the Bible is a heavily edited work and, therefore, cannot possibly be the perfectly preserved word of God. Moreover, even with 24,000 corrections since it was first published in 1611, its English is horribly archaic and becoming more difficult to read every year as the English language continues to change at an ever increasing rate. Nonetheless, the leaders of the KJO movement are continuing to be willing to do whatever it takes to discourage both Christians and non-Christians from reading a Bible in a translation that they are able to understand—and that “whatever it takes” includes concocting and spreading some of the most evil and maliciously destructive lies ever spoken by man or the devil himself.

 

[tall73]

Now please, I know you mean well by saying you have God' Spirit to guide you into truth and I am glad that you have God's Spirit because it proves you are my brother or sister in Christ. God's Spirit will always agree with His word, and hopefully you will realize that God's word is preserved and it is by His word that we know His Spirit is leading us into truth. Without the standard of God's word, we have no evidence that the Spirit is leading us into truth and it's not just our own spirit leading us into whatever we decide is true.

Try to understand and explain what you are saying. It must be in one of these questions, at least one of the following questions must explain what you are trying to say:

Are you saying God's Sprit is leading you but was not leading the translators of His word so they really were not His chosen translators? Are you saying you are more led of God than those translators were? Are you saying you are equally led of God as they were and you make mistakes and fail to obey God in translating His word to get it right the same as you are saying they failed to obey God and get it right, because you believe it is not possible to get it right but it is possible to get it close to being right and you are closer to being right than the translators of God's word were? I don't see any other options for explaining your belief when you do not believe God's word, do you see any other option? If so, please tell me what they are.

Joe, stop referring to the translators. You already said you don't care what the translators actually wrote about the process. They said there were some things the Spirit left uncertain. You say they got everything right. They put more literal readings for the Greek in the margin, you say those margin notes are wrong. You don't care what the translators say. You have decided that the KJV is right, apart from what the translators said.

 

[tall73]

and knowing God chose English in advance for His word (and yes His word is preserve in other languages, there is a Spanish version where persecutions proved the faith of the translators who obeyed God to bring His word to the Spanish speaking world.) because God knew English was going to become the nearly universal language of the world and God knew America would be the bread basket of the world by which He shed light of His word into a world long darkened in the dark ages under Catholicism.

Joe, which Spanish version? Reina-Valera?

What about before the 1600's Joe. What perfect Bibles were there then?

 

[tall73]

I will not give you the Bible explanation for what you say is wrong In Chronicles because you can easily do it for yourself.

Joe you have literally posted a near book-sized defense in this thread on how you "know" that the KJV is right. However, I have not seen you address any of the examples given that show this to be problematic.

Jack would not address specific examples, and you will not. You simply have a belief. Why will you not apply that belief to show the truth of it?

And the reason you give for your belief?

You still didn't show me any value to believing that God did not care enough to keep His word unchangeable.

This is not an argument that supports that the KJV is perfect. This is simply your acknowledgment that you find value in believing it, whether it is true or not.

 

[tall73]

The value of knowing God's word is preserved is in part knowing atheist cannot say anything against it.

The value to the person of believing something does not demonstrate whether something is true.

God has preserved His word in the manuscripts. The KJV does not even match the manuscripts, as its own translators noted in the margins, in a number of places.

 

[tall73]

The value of knowing God's word is preserved is in part knowing atheist cannot say anything against it.

Joe you may as well just say "I am going to believe the KJV is right, even if it is not, because it makes it easier for me".

 

[tall73]

Joe, you do not have to take your stand of faith on this issue. The KJV does not have to be perfect for God to be real, for atheists to be wrong, for your experience in Christ to be genuine.

All of the manuscripts agree on most of the text, and the doctrines are not changed. It appears you have made this an issue such that if the KJV is wrong then so is your faith in God. Therefore you will say it is right just because there is so much at stake, and it has so much value to you.

However, you need not take such a stand. From the parts that all the manuscripts agree on we can still know all that we need for faith, for life, for salvation, for holiness.

Many early Christians didn't even have the whole Bible, but just some of its letters or just the words from the apostles. Do not make the KJV the center of your faith. Make God the center of your faith. And He has preserved His word such that we can know Him, even in all the various versions.

 

[mikedsjr]

Joe, I'm keeping this simple.

You don't know what 1 Peter is about. You don't know who it is written to. You don't know why Peter said to the people receiving the letter to be Holy.

Your message is this(overdramatized): If you don't act the way 1 Peter 1:13-17 tells you to act, You aren't holy. Don't even drink alcohol. Don't go on the internet. Don't watch TV. Don't read books unless their approved by me, because God tells me who to read. Don't go to the beach. Don't wear shorts. Don't get married because you can't be completely dedicated to God only. Don't play video games. Don't play card games. Don't play any games because they don't promote Holiness. Don't eat at bars. Don't eat pork. Don't eat leavened bread. Don't work on Sundays. Don't read any Bible except the KJV or you aren't holy.

Peter's message: Be Holy in order to show the love of Christ to those who don't know Christ. Don't use your freedom in Christ to blind those who don't know God. You were bought with a price. Don't forget why Christ died for you. If your a slave, love your owner in the love of Christ, EVEN if he is abusive. In your country, respect and honor authority in the love of Christ, even if they are abusive to you. Don't suffer on account of ungodly actions. Suffering is coming. Be Holy in order to show the love of Christ. Remember the sacrifice in which Christ saved you.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

edited