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The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

classicalhero

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@PrincetonGuy, I see you don't have any answers to the questions I have asked of you, very interesting behaviour.

http://creation.com/is-the-raqiya-firmament-a-solid-dome
Anti-Christian sceptics often denounce the Bible as teaching a faulty cosmology. One example is the assertion that the Hebrew word רקיע raqiya‘, or ‘firmament’ in the KJV, denotes a solid dome over the earth, so that the Bible is guilty of scientific error. Such enemies of the Gospel have an ally in the professing evangelical Paul H. Seely, who maintains that both the social background data and the text of the Bible itself support this conclusion.
Seely’s conclusion is both presumptuous and untenable, and he fails to recognize that the description of the raqiya‘ is so equivocal and lacking in detail that one can only read a solid sky into the text by assuming that it is there in the first place. One can, however, justifiably understand Genesis to be in harmony with what we presently know about the nature of the heavens.
Introduction

It is common for sceptics to attack the Bible for teaching a primitive cosmology, including a flat earth and geocentrism. They use these arguments to claim that the Bible cannot be the word of God, rightly pointing out that God would not make errors in his Word. Neither would Jesus, if he were truly God in the flesh, endorse erroneous teaching. However, such sceptical arguments against the Bible’s cosmology have been repeatedly refuted by conservative Christians.1
More recently, the enemies of Christ have acquired an ally in the professing evangelical Paul H. Seely, who has also claimed that the Bible makes scientific errors. In giving ammunition to sceptics and others who want to destroy the Bible, thus feeding into the world system and giving it comfort, in some ways Seely is more dangerous to Christians than atheists. Although his papers are not cited in any Bible commentary I could find at the Reformed Theological Seminary at Orlando, Florida, his views seem to be beloved of Christians who desire to compromise the plain teachings of Scripture with the man-made theories of evolution and billions of years. Therefore this article is justified as pulling out this tree of misinformation by its roots.
A solid dome?

In particular, Seely has published two papers in the Westminster Theological Journal claiming that the Bible teaches that there is a solid dome above the earth. He announces near the very start of his 1991 article:
‘The basic historical fact that defines the meaning of raqiya‘—the Hebrew word in Genesis 1 which the King James Bible reads as ‘firmament,’ but many modern translations render ‘expanse’—‘is simply this: all peoples in the ancient world thought of the sky as solid.’2
Following this statement is an impressive and informative list of citations that goes on to prove just that point: from American Indians to the neighbors of the Hebrews in the ancient East; from ancient times until the time of the Renaissance, there were almost no recorded dissenters, leading Seely to the resolution, ‘When the original readers of Genesis 1 read the word raqiya‘ they thought of a solid sky.’2 Then, after an analysis of relevant Biblical texts, Seely concludes:
‘… (T)he language of Genesis 1 suggests solidity … and no usage of raqiya‘ anywhere states or even implies that it was not a solid object … The historical-grammatical meaning of raqiya‘ in Gen. 1:6-8 is very clearly a literally solid firmament.’2
Biblical inerrancy

We will have much to say regarding the specific Old Testament citations that Seely uses in defence of his thesis, but for the present, I perceive some rather gaping holes in Seely’s general logic. In terms of the meaning of raqiya‘ and the composition of Genesis, there are three basic possibilities:
First, it is possible that what Seely says is correct. The terms given in Genesis had only one possible meaning and no other, and Genesis was written, even under inspiration as Seely professes to believe, with this basic error in thought preserved.
Second, it is possible that the Genesis account was written before any of the erroneous cosmological theories of solid skies that Seely lists. It is not an uncommon suggestion that Gen. 1–11 was founded in sources prior to Moses — some would say the story derives from Abraham; we may even suppose that it derived from the experiences of Adam. If this is so, and if we can show that the descriptions in Gen. 1 are compatible with our present-day observations of the natural world, then Seely’s entire argument collapses. All he has shown is that the Hebrews and all of those following misinterpreted the meaning of raqiya‘ according to their own perceptions and derived from Genesis the idea of a solid sky. We may regard this solution as satisfactory, but a question mark remains in that we have no exact idea of the original composition date of Genesis 1.
Finally, there is a third option. Truly enough, one can indeed read Genesis 1 and say that a solid sky is in mind. But one can also, with as much justification, read Genesis 1 and say rather that it comports exactly with what we know today of the atmosphere and the solar system, with or without adjustments made for phenomenological language, and this is because of the utterly equivocal nature of the language used in Genesis 1.
Certainly Seely is correct to quote Warfield’s dictum that it was not the purpose of the writer of Genesis3 to describe the nature of the sky; Seely is also correct (if a bit chauvinistic in tone) to say that ‘there is no reason to believe the Hebrews were any less scientifically naive than their neighbors.’4
Where the line must be drawn is before the implication that inerrancy is not compromised by reading a solid sky into Genesis 1, and allowing no other interpretation. It does not do to say that ‘God has sometimes allowed his inspired penman to advert to the scientific concepts of their own day.’5 Seely confuses adaptation to human finitude with accommodation to human error—the former does not entail the latter.6
As I know all too well, having spent several years confronting critics of the Bible,7 such ‘allowances’ as Seely asserts easily open the door to ridicule of the inspired Word, and the critics are correct to see such rationalizations as Seely’s as totally invalid.
It also opens the door to those who claim that the Bible writers’ teaching on morality was also a reflection of ‘the scientific concepts of their own day’. For example, was their teaching against adultery and homosexual acts in ignorance of the modern scientific ‘fact’ that such behaviour is ‘in the genes’, programmed by evolution? This is hardly a caricature, since some liberals already use such arguments,8 showing that Seely’s attitude is the top of a perilous slippery slope. (Of course, it is fallacious to claim that behaviour is completely controlled by genes,9 and the ‘gay gene’ finding has been strongly questioned.10)
Rather than wave the white flag over inerrancy with this compromise over raqiya‘, it is better served, under this third option, to realize that the inspired author of Genesis was allowed to use the only terms available to him in his language to describe natural phenomena, but was not allowed to offer anything more than the vaguest, most minimal descriptions of those phenomena, thereby leaving nearly everything unsaid about their exact nature. Genesis 1 was perfectly designed to allow that interpretation which accorded with actual fact, for it ‘says nothing more than that God created the sky or its constituent elements’ while remaining ‘completely silent’ about what those elements were.11 It only depended upon where one started: if one starts with the presumption of a solid sky, one will read into the text a solid sky. If one starts with a modern conception, the text, as we shall see, permits that as well.
Put another way: if today we say ‘the sky is blue’ to a person who is a member of a ‘primitive’ society, and they happen to define the ‘sky’ as ‘the solid expanse over our head’, this does not make our original statement, ‘the sky is blue,’ in error. Their thought-concept is indeed in error, but our original statement is not—even if we both happen to use the same word, ‘sky’, to describe different concepts. So it is that God, using an inspired penman under the constraints of human language, did not err in Genesis. The cosmology has been kept so basic and equivocal that one must force certain meanings into the text and analyze what the writer ‘must have been thinking’ (as well as pay no attention to the fact that God, not man, is the ultimate author of the text) in order to find error.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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From the article: Truly enough, one can indeed read Genesis 1 and say that a solid sky is in mind. But one can also, with as much justification, read Genesis 1 and say rather that it comports exactly with what we know today of the atmosphere and the solar system, with or without adjustments made for phenomenological language, and this is because of the utterly equivocal nature of the language used in Genesis 1.

There is absolutely no justification for saying that one can read Genesis 1 and “say rather that it comports exactly with what we know today of the atmosphere and the solar system, with or without adjustments made for phenomenological language, and this is because of the utterly equivocal nature of the language used in Genesis 1.” There is absolutely no justification for saying this because the Hebrew is very clear and certain, and the only people who disagree are either people who cannot read Hebrew or dislike what it says. We all know and agree with the reality that there is no solid dome covering the earth (which would necessarily be flat in order for it to be covered with a dome as described in Genesis and other places in the Old Testament), but some fundamentalist Christians and Muslims refuse to acknowledge that the Hebrew Old Testament, especially in Genesis, expressly teaches a very different reality. These same fundamentalist Christians and Muslims also refuse to read and believe the NRSV in spite of the technical accuracy of the translation that is freely acknowledged to be technically correct by nearly everyone else who can read Hebrew.

Moreover, early Christians continued to believe that the earth is flat* and covered with a dome because they knew for a fact that it had to be in order for Genesis 1-11 to be an accurate account of historic events—totally ignoring the fact that the concept of accurate history was just beginning to come into being and had not at all come into being when Genesis was composed.

The argument that some of the New Testament writers believed in a literal flood is irrelevant because in order to believe in the flood as depicted in Genesis, they also had to believe that the earth was flat—and they did believe that!

Is the whole Bible a book of fiction? No. Indeed, we know that it is not because much of it can be verified by extra-biblical sources. However, one may ask, “How about the parts of the Bible that have been proven to be ‘incorrect’ in terms of today’s concept of accurate history?” and, “What parts of the Bible that we own today have perfectly preserved the word of God as God originally gave it, and what parts of the Bible that we own today express concepts that are more human than divine?”



*Only a flat earth has four corners:

Isa. 11:12. He will raise a signal for the nations,
and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth. (NRSV)

Rev.7:1. After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. (NRSV)

The literal four corners of the earth in the Bible gave rise to today’s popular expression.

Furthermore, Jesus was able to see all the kingdoms of the world from “a very high mountain.” This would have been impossible on a spherical earth:

Matt. 4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; (NRSV)
 
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Blue Wren

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Yes, in this case the article references the "sayings gospel" of Thomas. Some of the sayings are also seen in the Scriptures as we have then today. Others are not found in the Scriptures. Obviously the sayings gospel did not make the canonical cut.

John acknowledges that the gospel of John for instance does not record all the ACTIONS of Christ, and certainly, we don't have all the words either preserved from all of Christ's ministry.

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

So there could be some legitimate sayings of Jesus there that were not in the Scriptures as we know them.

Some view it as a proto-gnostic text. And of particular note as unusual is this section:

114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

The notion of "living spirit" as able to inherit the kingdom is seen by some as an early form of gnosticism.

Thank-you, for the information
 
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now faith

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Why are we 370 posts in and no one has explained yet how the paper trail of manuscript evidence supports the KJV being the exact replica of the autographs, only in English?

Nor has anyone provided, any other text that would promote,God's Word as the sole basis for our Christian faith.

So we must ask the question,do we walk by faith or our own merits?

Is this the true Word of Christ Jesus?
John: 5. 37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41. I receive not honour from men. 42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John: 15. 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
 
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now faith

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At some point it would be a logical thought-provoking process to understand that
our enemy, the devil would seek to confound the Word of God any way possible.

In this discussion we have had Christian commentary that books in the Bible are fables, or myths.

What would a person base there faith in God on if they deny his Word?

Personally I do not condemn other people who use other versions of the Bible.

My Bible is King James,but I do not consider myself part of a legal movement that throws accusations at those who read other Bibles.

One of my favorite Preachers used the Amplified version as well for teaching.

For me I have issue when verses are side by side,and a translation removes the Devine nature of Christ.

That is my only point as I leave this thread, is to keep Jesus first in what ever translation you may choose.

God Bless
 
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Jack Koons

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Just a quick note: I have many commitments which I must fulfil. This forum is something I do when I have the spare time to participate. Yes, my posts are sometimes delayed by a busy schedule; but that is the life I live. Some days I have more time, while some days I have less. (Some days [like today] I have almost none.)

I will post again as soon as I am able. And while I may not say what some want to hear, I will say that which I believe is true.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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I quoted the same verse from 2 Peter to illustrate that men were inspired. However, the men are still often referred to as the authors because it says that the men were writing to the churches:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Co 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Etc.
Beyond simply that point however, there are differing views of inspiration. Some, and most Baptists, hold that God verbally inspired each word of Scripture. Even among those who hold such, some think God gave just word as He would want, while others see God selecting from the existing vocabulary of the biblical writer, which they see explaining why Amos writes more like a farmer than Isaiah, for instance. Others do not see every word as being dictated by God. Some see the those "moved" by the Holy Ghost as not being given each word but given some message by divine inspiration that they then put in their own words, and from their own experience and background, reflecting their own word choices.
In this model you have a more human element. This is likely getting closer to what PrincetonGuy might hold at this point.
The point being, folks refer to them as authors because they wrote it down. They are still inspired. But the precise nature of that has been debated for sometime. Some do not hold to God being the soul source of information. As many in my old denomination said "the Bible writers were God's pen-men, not God's pen". What we know is God chose to reveal His word through people, not simply drop it down completed from heaven in written form. So yes, folks often refer to them as authors. And at the same time many see them as inspired (though secular critics would not, despite what the text says).
Now again, I am not going to jump through every hoop, one at a time, for days with your endless questions about textual criticism, etc. I asked you to clarify something about your view so that I could respond to your other posts. Instead you have gone off on a one at a time series of questions about textual criticism and my view of it, understanding of it, relation to it etc.

Very little of this has had anything to do with preserving the Scriptures, and you have been studiously avoiding any of the questions I asked you on that point. You have yet to actually spell out your view of the matter and how the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English.
If you want to present the methods of the KJV translators for constructing their eclectic text, show it if you wish. I have no interest in going point by point through your series of questions just so we can get to what your view is. State your view.
I will go back and respond to the other posts by you that I did not previously as it appears you are not going to clarify what I asked you about any time soon.
Well, well, well.

Let’s make this simple. In order to understand the ‘how’ of preservation, we must understand why those who have changed the basic and simple meaning of ‘preservation’, into a complicated doctrine. Please allow me to illustrate:

I gave the 1689 London Baptist Confession for a reason. The reason was very simple. To establish the fact that in 1689 there was (by at least some), the belief that the scriptures were initially given by inspiration, and then, by the singular care of God, “kept pure in all ages”. Truth be told, you did almost exactly what I thought you would do. You see Tall, there is much said in but the few words of the London Baptist Confession, regarding this matter. Please allow me to explain.

“Paragraph 8. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old),14 and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.15 But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read,16 and search them,17 therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,18 that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19
14 Rom. 3:2
15 Isa. 8:20
16 Acts 15:15
17 John 5:39
18 1 Cor. 14:6,9,11,12,24,28
19 Col. 3:16”

I know this may seem a bit unusual for some, but have you considered that these men may have actually been using ‘biblical’ terminology? Please notice:
Ps. 12: 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

John Gill had this to say:
Prov 30: Ver. 6. The words of the Lord [are] pure words, &c.] This observation the psalmist makes in reference to what is just now said in #Ps 12:5:, and in opposition to the words of wicked men in #Ps 12:2,4; which are deceitful, sinful, and impure. The Scriptures are the words of God; and they are pure and holy, free from all human mixtures, and from all fraud and deceit; they are the Scriptures of truth. The promises are the words of God, and they are firm and stable, and always to be depended on, and are ever fulfilled, being yea and amen in Christ Jesus. The Gospel, and the doctrines of it, are the words of God; that is the sincere milk of the word, pure and incorrupt; as it is in itself, and as it is dispensed by the faithful ministers of it; and they are all according to godliness, and tend to encourage and promote purity and holiness of heart and life; See #Pr 30:5; 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

And so you asked,

The disciples had plenty of faith about the resurrection, etc. as they had eye witnesses, the prophecy of Scriptures, etc. Faith does not mean without any evidence.

In the same way you talked about a paper trail. Now I already responded to their comment, regarding "being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages'.

If by pure they mean with nothing added or taken away, that is simply not true as you already acknowledged. The originals are in there, but we have variant readings, so much so that we cannot immediately know which are which.

And if what they mean is that God preserved whole manuscripts, exactly correct manuscripts throughout time, then why don't we see those that agree with the KJV in its readings?

May I submit to you that the meaning of “, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages”, is simply that God maintained the exact purity of His words thoughout the ages as they were when He gave them? He did not have to do this in a monolithic text as you seem to require Him to have done, He simply kept them pure. None of what He said has been lost. He has been watching over them, He has known where they (the true words) have been all long the time line. There may be some in one church in a particular manuscript, and there may be others in another manuscript in another church; but they’re all there. He has been keeping them pure. That is what this statement says. God doesn’t have to do things our way; He does them His way. That is why I find it amusing when I hear (or read) someone say, God would have done it this way, or that way. Why? Why does God have to do it the way you think it should be done? Does God need to be instructed on how to keep His words pure by mortal man? I think not. I am not saying that God had to do it the way I think He did it; I am saying that He did preserve His words, and it is apparent that He did not do it in the manner as the modern scholars thought He should have done it … But who are they to tell God how to do anything?

God expects us to read His words: Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
He expects us to study His words: 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
He expects us to have faith in His words: Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
He expects us to preach His words: 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

The list goes on. How can God expect these things, if He has not preserved His words. The men of 1689 London Baptist Confession knew this, hence, they wrote this in their confession.

However, as you can also see by the words of PrincetonGuy, not everyone shares this belief. My point Tall, is that when discussing the preservation of the scriptures, we must see the change in this doctrine, and understand why it took place. Why? Because if we do not understand why it took place, we may fall prey to the very same fate in our own minds. There may be a day soon, that because we do not see the “why”, as well as the “what”, we may find ourselves progressively moving toward the same denial of preservation.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Why do you talk about the "critic" when addressing my post? I already said I think the texts are preserved in the various manuscripts, not in a monolithic way, but with variants. Now you are saying the same thing, but arguing with the "critics."
You did this earlier as well, even indicating my view of the various text types was off, and then going on about positions of the critics.
Stop recycling your old posts and talk to me, or don't pretend to talk to me by quoting my posts.
The disciples had plenty of faith about the resurrection, etc. as they had eye witnesses, the prophecy of Scriptures, etc. Faith does not mean without any evidence.
In the same way you talked about a paper trail. Now I already responded to their comment, regarding "being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages'.
If by pure they mean with nothing added or taken away, that is simply not true as you already acknowledged. The originals are in there, but we have variant readings, so much so that we cannot immediately know which are which.
And if what they mean is that God preserved whole manuscripts, exactly correct manuscripts throughout time, then why don't we see those that agree with the KJV in its readings?
I have accepted it as He left it, with variants. It is those who claim the KJV is the exact duplicate of the autographs who must show that this is the case. And simply saying they know it by faith without any manuscript evidence, or without explaining how no similar lengthy manuscripts match it in readings does not suffice.

If you quote my posts, talk to me, not everything that has been said and then act like I said it.
If you can't respond to what I actually said then don't quote my posts at all.

Please allow me to deal with these words:

I have accepted it as He left it, with variants. It is those who claim the KJV is the exact duplicate of the autographs who must show that this is the case. And simply saying they know it by faith without any manuscript evidence, or without explaining how no similar lengthy manuscripts match it in readings does not suffice.

God did not leave it “with variants”. God inspired it with particular words. It is man that has supplied the variants. Please allow me to give you an example from the Scriptures:
Gen 2: 16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The setting is the Garden of Eden; God has just given Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, along with the consequences of disobedience.

Let us look farther along on the time line:
Gen 3: 1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Notice: “Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” This is the first “variant” of what God has said. I understand it wasn’t written, and would not ‘technically’ be ‘Scripture’, but I’m sure we all get the point. Much has been ‘omitted’ by Satan. “Variant #1”
We now have:
The original statement, and one variant.

Let us continue:
Gen 3: 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Notice, Eve adds: “neither shall ye touch it”. Variant #2
We now have:
The original statement, and two variants.

Did God have anything to do with the “variants”? No, He did not. Did He remove the variants? No, He did not. God gives His word. He did not honor or regard Satan’s variant, and He did not honor or regard Eve’s variant. God only honored and regarded His original statement. God recorded this event so that we would have an accurate record of this account in history. God is not limited by, or hindered by, the additions, or deletions of His word that man has caused through either carelessness, or deliberate actions. God by his singular care and providence, has kept His word pure, in all the ages. The actions taken by man to add or delete the Scriptures, has no bearing on the power of God to preserve it. Man will be held accountable for those actions, but it has no bearing on how God preserves His word.

As God stated in Gen 2:17, Adam and Eve died in the spiritually in the Garden of Eden, the very day they ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan’s effort mattered not, and Eve’s effort to protect herself by adding to it mattered not. The only thing that mattered was the words that had been given originally. And so it is with the preservation of the Scriptures. The variants matter not. The fact that it was not “kept” or preserved in a monolithic text, matters not. God knows the original words, that is what matters.

Jack
 
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tall73

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Well, well, well.

Let’s make this simple. In order to understand the ‘how’ of preservation, we must understand why those who have changed the basic and simple meaning of ‘preservation’, into a complicated doctrine. Please allow me to illustrate:

I gave the 1689 London Baptist Confession for a reason. The reason was very simple. To establish the fact that in 1689 there was (by at least some), the belief that the scriptures were initially given by inspiration, and then, by the singular care of God, “kept pure in all ages”. Truth be told, you did almost exactly what I thought you would do. You see Tall, there is much said in but the few words of the London Baptist Confession, regarding this matter. Please allow me to explain.

“Paragraph 8. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old),14 and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.15 But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read,16 and search them,17 therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,18 that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19
14 Rom. 3:2
15 Isa. 8:20
16 Acts 15:15
17 John 5:39
18 1 Cor. 14:6,9,11,12,24,28
19 Col. 3:16”

I know this may seem a bit unusual for some, but have you considered that these men may have actually been using ‘biblical’ terminology? Please notice:
Ps. 12: 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

John Gill had this to say:
Prov 30: Ver. 6. The words of the Lord [are] pure words, &c.] This observation the psalmist makes in reference to what is just now said in #Ps 12:5:, and in opposition to the words of wicked men in #Ps 12:2,4; which are deceitful, sinful, and impure. The Scriptures are the words of God; and they are pure and holy, free from all human mixtures, and from all fraud and deceit; they are the Scriptures of truth. The promises are the words of God, and they are firm and stable, and always to be depended on, and are ever fulfilled, being yea and amen in Christ Jesus. The Gospel, and the doctrines of it, are the words of God; that is the sincere milk of the word, pure and incorrupt; as it is in itself, and as it is dispensed by the faithful ministers of it; and they are all according to godliness, and tend to encourage and promote purity and holiness of heart and life; See #Pr 30:5; 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

And so you asked,



May I submit to you that the meaning of “, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages”, is simply that God maintained the exact purity of His words thoughout the ages as they were when He gave them? He did not have to do this in a monolithic text as you seem to require Him to have done, He simply kept them pure. None of what He said has been lost. He has been watching over them, He has known where they (the true words) have been all long the time line.

This is a bit of double speak. I certainly agree God always knew what the originals were. And I have agreed that the manuscripts have been preserved, along with the true readings in there somewhere.

However, that is not the same as saying God's word was preserved pure through the ages. God's word was pure as it was given and man added to it. If man cannot figure out at this time which is which, how is it preserved pure at this time for anyone other than God? And if we are to preach the word, etc. then shouldn't it be preserved for the church? So then what other conclusion can we come to then that God allowed it to be preserved as it is?

The church still manages to preach Christ, know Christ, study Christ and the gospel by what we actually have--God's word, along with variants. Because that is all we actually have to go by right now.





There may be some in one church in a particular manuscript, and there may be others in another manuscript in another church; but they’re all there. He has been keeping them pure.
It is actually likely there are some manuscripts with all the original readings. Making an eclectic text that matches none of the manuscripts seems less likely to find the original.

That is what this statement says. God doesn’t have to do things our way; He does them His way. That is why I find it amusing when I hear (or read) someone say, God would have done it this way, or that way. Why? Why does God have to do it the way you think it should be done? Does God need to be instructed on how to keep His words pure by mortal man? I think not. I am not saying that God had to do it the way I think He did it; I am saying that He did preserve His words, and it is apparent that He did not do it in the manner as the modern scholars thought He should have done it … But who are they to tell God how to do anything?
If all you are saying is that God always knew the original and where the readings were, that is not saying much. Yes, clearly He knows all and would know that. However, any actually practical preservation would have to be for use by the church. And what the church has been using is what the church has....the Scriptures with variants.

God expects us to read His words: Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
He expects us to study His words: 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
He expects us to have faith in His words: Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
He expects us to preach His words: 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

The list goes on. How can God expect these things, if He has not preserved His words. The men of 1689 London Baptist Confession knew this, hence, they wrote this in their confession.
Yet are you saying the church didn't do that until 1611? If it was just in various manuscripts here a bit there a bit until then, how could they preach it or study it?

It would be more honest to say God inspired pure words, but man currently has only about 98 percent pure, and the rest with variants, because that is what we see.

However, as you can also see by the words of PrincetonGuy, not everyone shares this belief. My point Tall, is that when discussing the preservation of the scriptures, we must see the change in this doctrine, and understand why it took place. Why? Because if we do not understand why it took place, we may fall prey to the very same fate in our own minds. There may be a day soon, that because we do not see the “why”, as well as the “what”, we may find ourselves progressively moving toward the same denial of preservation.

Jack
Jack, you have posted tons of material, most of it directed at the critics, and still have not presented or defended your view.

What good is your "why" if you never told us your version of "what" which you say is the true one?
 
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tall73

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Jack said:
Please allow me to deal with these words:

tall73 said:
I have accepted it as He left it, with variants. It is those who claim the KJV is the exact duplicate of the autographs who must show that this is the case. And simply saying they know it by faith without any manuscript evidence, or without explaining how no similar lengthy manuscripts match it in readings does not suffice.​
God did not leave it “with variants”. God inspired it with particular words. It is man that has supplied the variants. Please allow me to give you an example from the Scriptures:

I did not say He inspired it with variants. However it has been preserved or left with variants. He did He intervene to prevent it. As the manuscripts are now, as they are left, by Him, is with variants, not "pure". Not monolithic. You have agreed with this notion as well.

Now yes, man is the one who changed it. But God did not overrule that to maintain the pure readings.



Did God have anything to do with the “variants”? No, He did not. Did He remove the variants? No, He did not.
And that is the point. God did not remove them. So the word as we have it currently is not "pure" or there would be no variants.

Yes, God's originally inspired words are in there, and they are theologically pure. But they are right alongside non-inspired words, and that does not result in a "pure" text for actual use. The words God inspired are pure. But we don't have a pure text now for actual use if you mean that we know what the true ones are, apart from the others all around them.


God gives His word. He did not honor or regard Satan’s variant, and He did not honor or regard Eve’s variant. God only honored and regarded His original statement. God recorded this event so that we would have an accurate record of this account in history. God is not limited by, or hindered by, the additions, or deletions of His word that man has caused through either carelessness, or deliberate actions. God by his singular care and providence, has kept His word pure, in all the ages.

Now first off His church has had to use the text that is not "pure" if only He knows what the pure is. God has not been hindered because He makes use of even man's failings. But God knowing the pure text does not mean the church has it. And the church is the one using it.

The actions taken by man to add or delete the Scriptures, has no bearing on the power of God to preserve it. Man will be held accountable for those actions, but it has no bearing on how God preserves His word.

As God stated in Gen 2:17, Adam and Eve died in the spiritually in the Garden of Eden, the very day they ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan’s effort mattered not, and Eve’s effort to protect herself by adding to it mattered not. The only thing that mattered was the words that had been given originally. And so it is with the preservation of the Scriptures. The variants matter not. The fact that it was not “kept” or preserved in a monolithic text, matters not. God knows the original words, that is what matters.

Jack
Jack, is your real point here, your real belief, that we cannot know God's true words from the variants right now?

Yet you and some of your friends seem to think they are perfectly preserved in the KJV.

So we have a bit of a problem here. If only God knows them, how are they in the KJV?

God has preserved His word, and He has not supernaturally intervened to have only His word, but allowed variants. And that is what the church is using. So if you have evidence that the scholars who translated the KJV of the Bible are the first folks to have the exact replicas of the autographs since ancient times, then present it.

So far you seem to be saying the same as the critics in one key respect--only God knows the original text.
 
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tall73

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I know this may seem a bit unusual for some, but have you considered that these men may have actually been using ‘biblical’ terminology? Please notice:
Ps. 12: 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

And have you considered that if that was their intent they didn't do a good job of it?

being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic

God inspired pure words, and the psalmist acknowledges that the words of the LORD are pure.

Yet, the confession says they by His care have been KEPT pure in all ages. That is not biblical language. If so, cite the text. And it is not reality if we have variants and cannot for sure say which are the original words inspired.

The words of God are pure and true spiritually and theologically, etc.

The words we have are not all the words of God, but the words of God and the words of man side by side, and we struggle to know which. That is not "kept pure" through all ages.

Now, are they only speaking of what you referenced, the abstract notion that God knows the Scriptures, even though no one else does, and knows where the true variants are at?

Of course not ,because the next phrase says the church should USE these pure scriptures to solve controversies:


so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.

You can't solve church controversies by something the church does not have access to.

They simply overstated their case. And unlike Scripture their views are not inspired. I don't have to agree at all with their assertion that the word has been kept pure for the church to use, because the text the church is using is not pure, or we wouldn't have variants.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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The Bible is God's word. God cannot lie. There are not multiple versions or translations of God's word. Either all of them are incorrect because they are all different and in them God is either a liar or unable to say exactly what He meant to say, or one translation is the word of God. I speak English and I thank God for giving me His word in English. He is my father, I am a child of His, and it's wonderful knowing I can take Him at His word exactly as He gave it to me.

No scholar can take that away from me. You can cut off my hand before you can make me say God has not given me His word, and you can take my King James Bible away from my dead body. The King James Bible is God's word in English. I would not be the first person who lost his life to keep it, and won't be the last. I might give you ten cents for a modern version if I need it to kindle a fire. I won't renounce the word of God for a million dollars.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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And have you considered that if that was their intent they didn't do a good job of it?



God inspired pure words, and the psalmist acknowledges that the words of the LORD are pure.

Yet, the confession says they by His care have been KEPT pure in all ages. That is not biblical language. If so, cite the text. And it is not reality if we have variants and cannot for sure say which are the original words inspired.

The words of God are pure and true spiritually and theologically, etc.

The words we have are not all the words of God, but the words of God and the words of man side by side, and we struggle to know which. That is not "kept pure" through all ages.

Now, are they only speaking of what you referenced, the abstract notion that God knows the Scriptures, even though no one else does, and knows where the true variants are at?

Of course not ,because the next phrase says the church should USE these pure scriptures to solve controversies:




You can't solve church controversies by something the church does not have access to.

They simply overstated their case. And unlike Scripture their views are not inspired. I don't have to agree at all with their assertion that the word has been kept pure for the church to use, because the text the church is using is not pure, or we wouldn't have variants.

You have variants because some people invented them, and many people like yourself love them and pay them for doing it. Then scholars come along and make careers our of keeping the variations cloudy so they can sell more of the mysterious elusive and never quite right invention of God's word...which of course is not God's word because His word does not change and cannot have variances.
 
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Jack Koons

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A quick note:

None of the early churches had "all" of the Scriptures (66 books), as we have them today. This is a false presumption of modern scholarship that is used to say that no one had the Bible until 1611, according to the KJVOnlyists. The fact is that the church indeed did not have the books together as we know it today, for quite some time after they were dispersed. The Canon wasn't even agreed upon for centuries. But God did preserve what He wanted as Canon of Scripture, when and how He wanted it preserved. These false arguments against pure preservation are straw man arguments.

More to come as I have time.
 
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revrobor

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The Bible is God's word. God cannot lie. There are not multiple versions or translations of God's word. Either all of them are incorrect because they are all different and in them God is either a liar or unable to say exactly what He meant to say, or one translation is the word of God. I speak English and I thank God for giving me His word in English. He is my father, I am a child of His, and it's wonderful knowing I can take Him at His word exactly as He gave it to me.

No scholar can take that away from me. You can cut off my hand before you can make me say God has not given me His word, and you can take my King James Bible away from my dead body. The King James Bible is God's word in English. I would not be the first person who lost his life to keep it, and won't be the last. I might give you ten cents for a modern version if I need it to kindle a fire. I won't renounce the word of God for a million dollars.


The Bible is NOT the word of God. He inspired human writers to pen the Bible. There are many fine new translations inspired by God to make it easy for modern man to understand what He is saying.
 
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tall73

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A quick note:

None of the early churches had "all" of the Scriptures (66 books), as we have them today.

We agree that the NT books were penned separately and not all churches had access to each of them as we do today. And while Christians were some of the first to start using folios of scroll fragments in a book like format for witnessing purposes, even the OT books were on large scrolls primarily, and the place they were still most easily accessible were the synagogues.

This is a false presumption of modern scholarship that is used to say that no one had the Bible until 1611, according to the KJVOnlyists.
No, it is simply a natural reaction when you clam that the true message of the autographs was spread out among various manuscript readings and then compiled, perfectly, by the KJV translators in an eclectic collection which exactly mirrors the autographs. The KJV does not agree in readings with the various manuscripts. Can you show a manuscript of Matthew that agrees in every respect with the readings of Matthew in the KJV?


The fact is that the church indeed did not have the books together as we know it today, for quite some time after they were dispersed. The Canon wasn't even agreed upon for centuries.
Indeed the canon was agreed on later. However, the autographs were still around, and while the canon was not agreed on for some time yet lists of possible canons were floated for a while, and upon a great number of books their was general agreement.

However, this doesn't change the problem you face. You indicate that God preserved the true Scriptures that He inspired in various manuscripts, spread all over. Yet somehow the KJV replicated them exactly from an eclectic process, creating a Bible that even the various books don't agree with known manuscripts in every reading. Yet you have not explained how. That is not a straw-man criticism. That is a valid observation that you have not presented this evidence.

But God did preserve what He wanted as Canon of Scripture, when and how He wanted it preserved. These false arguments against pure preservation are straw man arguments.

More to come as I have time.
When you present that "more" why not stop worrying about perceived straw-man arguments against a theory you have yet to explain?

Why not stop worrying about the "critics" view of a theory you have yet to explain?

If you have limited time in this thread, why not present your evidence that the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English?

So far the only thing the "critics" in this thread could say about your theory is that you have not bothered to explain it.
 
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tall73

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You have variants because some people invented them, and many people like yourself love them and pay them for doing it.

Those variants were around long before any of us here was born. So they were not inventing them to make money off of us. Whether you agree that the manuscripts are legitimate or not, at least address the real issue. The variants were not invented to sell, they were printed because they already existed and some thought they were a better representation of the actual text.

Moreover, Jack pointed out that the KJV is still copyrighted in England. So that argument isn't working for you.


Then scholars come along and make careers our of keeping the variations cloudy so they can sell more of the mysterious elusive and never quite right invention of God's word
Cloudy? The fact that there were variants to begin with makes things cloudy.

...which of course is not God's word because His word does not change and cannot have variances.
Well we agree God's word does not change. However, the question is which readings are God's word. However, you have been unwilling to engage on that point at all other than to state that the KJV is God's word in English, with no evidence to support that.
 
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tall73

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The Bible is God's word. God cannot lie. There are not multiple versions or translations of God's word. Either all of them are incorrect because they are all different and in them God is either a liar or unable to say exactly what He meant to say, or one translation is the word of God.

Well we can agree that the autographs only said one thing. So there cannot be different texts that all perfectly reproduce them. However, right now what we have is underlying texts that agree on 98 percent or more, and does not do away with major doctrines. While we would certainly like to know we have 100 percent correct, that has not been demonstrated.



I speak English and I thank God for giving me His word in English.
And there you just state your view, but again don't explain how it is true.


He is my father, I am a child of His, and it's wonderful knowing I can take Him at His word exactly as He gave it to me.
Why didn't you post that Bible verse that demonstrated the KJV is God's word in English? You said you saw it from the Bible.

No scholar can take that away from me.
No, scholars look at evidence and your theory is not based on any evidence. So factual argument is unlikely to change that. Besides, I don't think most scholars spend much time trying to take away your KJV Bible.


You can cut off my hand before you can make me say God has not given me His word, and you can take my King James Bible away from my dead body. The King James Bible is God's word in English. I would not be the first person who lost his life to keep it, and won't be the last. I might give you ten cents for a modern version if I need it to kindle a fire. I won't renounce the word of God for a million dollars.
We have no interest in prying away your Bible from your body, dead or otherwise. However, we would like someone to explain how the manuscript evidence supports your assertion that the KJV is God's word in English.

Or you could post the verse that you said convinced you that the KJV is God's word in English for us to see if it says that.
 
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J

Jack Koons

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Like Joe, I believe the King James Bible is God's perfect Word in English, for English speaking people. In other words, the 1769 KJB that we hold in our hands today, is a perfect representation of God's Word in English, or, one could say; had God given His Word to mankind in English. Rather than the Hebrew and Greek, The KJB would be the Bible that He would have given.

In order to have the proper representation and support of all Bible doctrine, the KJB is the inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word of God.

More to come,

Jack
 
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