The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

[tall73]

It is basically a storm in a tea cup because all three words mean the same thing.

I already acknowledged that all could be valid translations. For anyone who just sees the KJV as a translation of the Scriptures, even a good translation, it is not a problem at all.

However, Joe and Jack have stated that it is the perfect rendering of the Greek autographs into English as guided by God. Then you run into a problem of how there can be three different perfect renderings of the same OT quotation.

So again, if you want to treat is as no big deal, great. I agree. However, if you hold God guided them to the correct rendering in each phrase, it is a big deal.

In the earlier KJV only thread you posted:

Two thing things a good Bible needs is to be translated from the Greek majority texts(The Byzantine texts) and to be a mostly formal equivalence, but understanding that translating from 3 different languages makes a 100% translation that way impossible, but it should be done as much as possible while making sense in the language translated into.

I would largely agree. I tend to favor the majority text as well, and agree with mostly formal equivalence.

However, I don't hold to any special favor for the translators of the KJV, which some here do seem to hold to. Yet they have not presented the evidence as to why they hold that view.

I suppose the possibility still remains that they will demonstrate in such a fashion that it convinces me. Otherwise I hold that the KJV is a good translation, but not led by God to be one hundred percent correct.

 

[tall73]

It is basically a storm in a tea cup because all three words mean the same thing.

Does this mean you no longer hold the notion of underlying Greek nuances, or do you plan to explain them?

 

[Jack Koons]

It is basically a storm in a tea cup because all three words mean the same thing.

Funny, isn't it!

Jack

 

[tall73]

Funny, isn't it!

Jack

So you said you will not comment on individual examples, but now you do? Of course you offer no analysis on why they translated the word three different ways. And you earlier agreed with the nuances argument.

Is it that there are nuances?

Jack, are we ever going to hear the evidence for your view?

 

[St Antony]

It seems like the Vulgate written in Latin by St. Jerome shortly before 400 would be the gold standard since Jerome had access to all of the original writings only a few centuries (as opposed to 15 centuries) from the originals, and since the Vulgate is the earliest full translation that we have. The KJV is just an English translation written in Elizabethan/Shakespearean English around 1600. Personally, I have a difficult time with many passages of the KJV just because the language is so archaic. A modern version based on the Vulgate, with the slight alterations required by earlier 2nd-4th century fragments of the Scriptures discovered in modern times, would seem to be the best translation.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

It seems like the Vulgate written in Latin by St. Jerome shortly before 400 would be the gold standard since Jerome had access to all of the original writings only a few centuries (as opposed to 15 centuries) from the originals, and since the Vulgate is the earliest full translation that we have. The KJV is just an English translation written in Elizabethan/Shakespearean English around 1600. Personally, I have a difficult time with many passages of the KJV just because the language is so archaic. A modern version based on the Vulgate, with the slight alterations required by earlier 2nd-4th century fragments of the Scriptures discovered in modern times, would seem to be the best translation.

That would be something the Catholics would teach in Catholic forums.

Baptists like myself believe God kept His word preserved and guided its translation into English around the end of the time of the dark ages when Catholicism tried to dominate Christianity. "Heretic" was the Catholic name for any who dared to approach God based on only the authority of His word with the blood of Jesus Christ being their full and only necessary payment for their sins, secure in God's pardon with eternal life now in Christ with no need of approval from any church organization, requiring no Pope or priest as a human intermediate. "Heretics" were counted worthy of brutal torture and death if they would not submit to Vatican rule, and that rule was enforced against Bible believing Christians by Papal authority.

Bible believing Christians like myself, unlike Catholic Christians, believe God cares enough about His word that He gave it to people who guarded it with their lives often at the cost of their lives, and He kept it pure as He guided it's translation into English.

It is because of divisions along historical lines that Catholics are not supposed to teach in the Baptist Forum. If you are not in fellowship with the OP, you are not supposed to be teaching contrary to the OP as a Catholic in the Baptist Forum.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Here is another example that indicates that the translators of the KJV were not given spiritual insight to exactly pick the correct word in English to represent the Greek (they never claimed to, this is other people's claim for them).

In the following verses Genesis 15:6 is quoted multiple times by Paul in the New Testament.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. KJV

The portion that is quoted in three different places is "he counted it to him for righteousness."

Yet the King James Version translators use three different words to render "counted" in the New Testament, while translating the same underlying Greek text in each case.

This is not a case where context would necessitate different words. It is an Old Testament quote, from it's own context. I have shown the rendering in each case, and the Greek text below:


KJV:

Romans 4:3
it was counted unto him for righteousness

Romans 4:22
it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:6
it was accounted to him for righteousness.




The Greek:


Romans 4:3
ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.

Romans 4:22
λογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην


Galatians 3:6
ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην


If the translators are given the perfect word in English, why did they need to render the same word three different ways, in the same OT quote?

The translators did not claim they were inspired to translate correctly. And the evidence bears this out.

so you are inspired to translate correctly? when did you become inspired to be the critic of the translators of the translation authorized by King James?

 

[tall73]

so you are inspired to translate correctly?
when did you become inspired to be the critic of the translators of the translation authorized by King James?

Nice dodge. I did not offer a different translation did I? Nor did I say any of the three were incorrect translations. Once again you miss the point. Within the guidelines they set out with, which did not include uniform translation of individual Greek terms, they made a good translation. The problem is with claims made for the translators by others.

Now do you want to explain why they rendered the same quotation, with identical Greek underlying texts with three different English translations? The issue is that there cannot be three perfect translations of the same phrase into English. It is an issue that only bothers people who believe that the translators were led to the exact perfect reading.

 

[tall73]

That would be something the Catholics would teach in Catholic forums.

Baptists like myself believe God kept His word preserved and guided its translation into English around the end of the time of the dark ages when Catholicism tried to dominate Christianity. "Heretic" was the Catholic name for any who dared to approach God based on only the authority of His word with the blood of Jesus Christ being their full and only necessary payment for their sins, secure in God's pardon with eternal life now in Christ with no need of approval from any church organization, requiring no Pope or priest as a human intermediate. "Heretics" were counted worthy of brutal torture and death if they would not submit to Vatican rule, and that rule was enforced against Bible believing Christians by Papal authority.

Bible believing Christians like myself, unlike Catholic Christians, believe God cares enough about His word that He gave it to people who guarded it with their lives often at the cost of their lives, and He kept it pure as He guided it's translation into English.

It is because of divisions along historical lines that Catholics are not supposed to teach in the Baptist Forum. If you are not in fellowship with the OP, you are not supposed to be teaching contrary to the OP as a Catholic in the Baptist Forum.

He still has a point that Jerome pre-dated many of the existing manuscripts, and so may have had access to Greek manuscripts that we do not have today. In that regard Jerome may actually help out the position of Byzantine majority against the Alexandrian school which you seem particularly against.

Also Jerome far predated the middle ages, protestants, Wycliff, etc. so he certainly was not translating in the context of any of that history.

 

[DeaconDean]

so you are inspired to translate correctly? when did you become inspired to be the critic of the translators of the translation authorized by King James?

Can you demonstrate a "golden rule" that states any individual who knows Koine Greek, has to be inspired by God in order to translate the Greek for themselves?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Jack Koons]

When I have these discussions, I cannot help but think of the same type of discussions I have with atheists (which I have on a pretty regular basis). What the atheists require from the theist, is absolute scientific evidence which they deem as credible, for the existence of God. The amazing thing is, that I have had atheists tell me that even if I could prove the existence of God to their satisfaction, they still wouldn't worship Him as God.

I have have had many discussions of this type with skeptics, (on the KJV issue), only to have them tell me that none of the so-called evidence matters anyway. So why then do I do this? Because behind the scenes I am told by the people who have little or nothing to say; that the evidence I presented made a difference for them; and they now "get it", and are enjoying reading, and studying the KJB.

By the way, the paper trail is 24,000 MSS in several languages, all bearing record to the preservation of God's Holy Word; not to mention the volumes of quotations of the scriptures by early church fathers.

We are expected by God to be saved by faith.
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2

We are expected to live by faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. -Romans 1:17
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. -Galatians 3:11

But when it comes to the preservation of the scriptures, we only accept it when we have scientific proof.

REALLY???

Jack

 

[tall73]

When I have these discussions, I cannot help but think of the same type of discussions I have with atheists (which I have on a pretty regular basis). What the atheists require from the theist, is absolute scientific evidence which they deem as credible, for the existence of God. The amazing thing is, that I have had atheists tell me that even if I could prove the existence of God to their satisfaction, they still wouldn't worship Him as God.

I have have had many discussions of this type with skeptics, (on the KJV issue), only to have them tell me that none of the so-called evidence matters anyway. So why then do I do this? Because behind the scenes I am told by the people who have little or nothing to say; that the evidence I presented made a difference for them; and they now "get it", and are enjoying reading, and studying the KJB.

By the way, the paper trail is 24,000 MSS in several languages, all bearing record to the preservation of God's Holy Word; not to mention the volumes of quotations of the scriptures by early church fathers.

We are expected by God to be saved by faith.
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2

We are expected to live by faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. -Romans 1:17
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. -Galatians 3:11

But when it comes to the preservation of the scriptures, we only accept it when we have scientific proof.

REALLY???

Jack

Jack, continuing to compare us to atheists is not presenting evidence. It is not as though you haven't had time to present evidence by now. You have not spelled out your reasons for believing that the KJV is the reproduction of the autographs in English.

And this argument that we must just believe that the KJV is a perfect translation of the originals is solely based on faith does not make sense. It is not a valid comparison to belief.

Jesus did demonstrate through many evidences who He was.

1. Fulfillment of prophecy:

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

2. Miracles:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


3. Eye witness testimony:

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


4. The love of the bretheren (this one may not be as convincing these days)

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

5. The Spirit's work

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


6. Created order

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

7. The conscience

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now while people may indeed reject all of these, they do have evidence.

Yet you chastise us for not accepting your position by faith without spelling out the evidence.

 

[tall73]

By the way, the paper trail is 24,000 MSS in several languages, all bearing record to the preservation of God's Holy Word; not to mention the volumes of quotations of the scriptures by early church fathers.

The statement that there exist 24,000 MSS in several languages does not prove that the KJV is a perfect translation of the originals in English.

The conclusion does not follow from what you presented. Everyone in this thread acknowledges the thousands of manuscripts, and have varying opinions on what they mean.

I already stated I do agree God preserved His word in those manuscripts. That does not say anything about the KJV.

So rather than compare me to an atheist, why not post the evidence that actually proves your position?

 

[DeaconDean]

Jack, continuing to compare us to atheists is not presenting evidence. It is not as though you haven't had time to present evidence by now. You have not spelled out your reasons for believing that the KJV is the reproduction of the autographs in English.

And this argument that we must just believe that the KJV is a perfect translation of the originals is solely based on faith does not make sense. It is not a valid comparison to belief.

Jesus did demonstrate through many evidences who He was.

1. Fulfillment of prophecy:

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

2. Miracles:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


3. Eye witness testimony:

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


4. The love of the bretheren (this one may not be as convincing these days)

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

5. The Spirit's work

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


6. Created order

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

7. The conscience

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now while people may indeed reject all of these, they do have evidence.

Yet you chastise us for not accepting your position by faith without spelling out the evidence.

You know, its funny. In researching the Greek manuscripts, one comment keeps popping up in nearly every paper, every thesis I read.

What "bible" did Jesus quote from, or what "bible" was used during the first century of Christianity?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

When I have these discussions, I cannot help but think of the same type of discussions I have with atheists (which I have on a pretty regular basis). What the atheists require from the theist, is absolute scientific evidence which they deem as credible, for the existence of God. The amazing thing is, that I have had atheists tell me that even if I could prove the existence of God to their satisfaction, they still wouldn't worship Him as God.

For the past two years I have been actively involved in a ministry to a fellowship of atheists, and they tell me that they do not believe in God because the evidence for there being a God is all subjective, but that if anyone could produce some objective evidence for the existence of God they would take the evidence into careful consideration.

I have have had many discussions of this type with skeptics, (on the KJV issue), only to have them tell me that none of the so-called evidence matters anyway. So why then do I do this? Because behind the scenes I am told by the people who have little or nothing to say; that the evidence I presented made a difference for them; and they now "get it", and are enjoying reading, and studying the KJB.

What evidence? So far in this thread, you have not posted any objective evidence that God preserved ancient manuscripts of the Bible any more than He preserved fossils of dinosaurs, giant ground sloths, and Saber-toothed cats—let alone any evidence that God had anything at all to do with the KJV or even that He thinks that it is a reasonably accurate translation.

By the way, the paper trail is 24,000 MSS in several languages, all bearing record to the preservation of God's Holy Word; not to mention the volumes of quotations of the scriptures by early church fathers.

Nonsense! A fossil record of 37,000,000 fossils of thousands of species does not prove that a single fossil was preserved by God; and a paper trail of 24,000 MSS in several languages does not prove that a single manuscript was preserved by God.

We are expected by God to be saved by faith.
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2

We are expected to live by faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. -Romans 1:17
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. -Galatians 3:11

Some years ago, I pioneered an inner-city church “by faith”—that is, I began with nothing but a directive from God to pioneer the church. I never asked anyone for anything, and yet in just three years we were ministering out of three facilities including a beautiful large facility with a very large kitchen and dinning room enabling us to serve a nutritious hot evening meal seven days a week. We taught Bible studies five nights a week and held an evangelistic service each night after the Bible study. He had three worship services on Sundays and had special Christian functions on Saturday afternoons and evenings. Our graphic arts department published a newspaper and a newsletter, but we never asked for donations. We ministered to the hopeless cases that other churches did not want anything to do with and we saw them believe the gospel and watched them change from derelicts and savage beasts to men and women of God. Indeed, one of the men was a cold-blooded murderer who disemboweled a man for accidentally knocking over his motorcycle.

Faith is not believing what we want to believe; faith is believing what God wants us to believe—and believing it not just in our minds but in our hearts and actions.

But when it comes to the preservation of the scriptures, we only accept it when we have scientific proof.

No one is asking you for “scientific proof”; we are only asking you for a tad bit of evidence—but so far you have given us nothing but excuses.

 

[Jack Koons]

Just for the fun of it, I will give what I consider to be the four points which must be understood correctly, in order to have a proper grasp on the preservation of the scriptures. (I am simply giving the points at this juncture.)

1 The understanding that it is the "words" of God that were 'inspired', not the 'writers' of the scriptures.
2) God used faithful churches to copy His scriptures, throughout the ages.
3) God used men who He called to compile the eclectic text that would underly all future 'translations' of Scripture; and the method they used was submission to the Holy Spirit, that he might lead them to the proper variant.
4) God then used more men who He called for the express job of translating His Words from the original languages, to English. The proper method of translation is known as Verbal Formal Equivalence. This process still takes place by such organizations as the Trinitarian Bible Society, in the translation of the scriptures into other languages around the world.

Jack

 

[SaintJoeNow]

When I have these discussions, I cannot help but think of the same type of discussions I have with atheists (which I have on a pretty regular basis). What the atheists require from the theist, is absolute scientific evidence which they deem as credible, for the existence of God. The amazing thing is, that I have had atheists tell me that even if I could prove the existence of God to their satisfaction, they still wouldn't worship Him as God.

I have have had many discussions of this type with skeptics, (on the KJV issue), only to have them tell me that none of the so-called evidence matters anyway. So why then do I do this? Because behind the scenes I am told by the people who have little or nothing to say; that the evidence I presented made a difference for them; and they now "get it", and are enjoying reading, and studying the KJB.

By the way, the paper trail is 24,000 MSS in several languages, all bearing record to the preservation of God's Holy Word; not to mention the volumes of quotations of the scriptures by early church fathers.

We are expected by God to be saved by faith.
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2

We are expected to live by faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. -Romans 1:17
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. -Galatians 3:11

But when it comes to the preservation of the scriptures, we only accept it when we have scientific proof.

REALLY???

Jack

Amen, brother....I found a pagan/atheist website which bases it's whole anti-Christian teaching on the fact that they believe God's word is lost since the originals are lost. That website presented a far more sophisticated and detailed argument against the King James Bible being the word of God than anybody I have seen on this site. People don't realize that when they are arguing against God's word being preserved and delivered to the English speaking world as the King James Authorized Version, they are upholding atheistic philosophies against God. One of these days I'll find that website again, had it on my old comp which was ruined by a virus.

And good work for helping others to see God's word is given to us in English.
I think some have been persuaded through my posts, at least one said the wake up call for him was the fact that all modern versions are copyrighted for exclusive profits of their editors and publishers, and copyright law requires a certain number of substantial changes from the derived source to secure copyright.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Amen, brother....I found a pagan/atheist website which bases it's whole anti-Christian teaching on the fact that they believe God's word is lost since the originals are lost. That website presented a far more sophisticated and detailed argument against the King James Bible being the word of God than anybody I have seen on this site. People don't realize that when they are arguing against God's word being preserved and delivered to the English speaking world as the King James Authorized Version, they are upholding atheistic philosophies against God. One of these days I'll find that website again, had it on my old comp which was ruined by a virus.

And good work for helping others to see God's word is given to us in English.
I think some have been persuaded through my posts, at least one said the wake up call for him was the fact that all modern versions are copyrighted for exclusive profits of their editors and publishers, and copyright law requires a certain number of substantial changes from the derived source to secure copyright.

I found that website again, but will not post it here since the attack against the King James Bible is so twisted in it's approach and skewed in historical fact that it will only give fuel of confusion for confused people....but the atheists there make the same comments and ask the same questions against the King James Bible as the Christians here do, and I think it's a shame. They use the same anti-preservation reasoning and arguments as the basis for complete denial of God, and many Christians use those same lines of reasoning to support evolutionary beliefs the same as many of the translators of modern versions supported them.

 

[tall73]

3) God used men who He called to compile the eclectic text that would underly all future 'translations' of Scripture; and the method they used was submission to the Holy Spirit, that he might lead them to the proper variant.

4) God then used more men who He called for the express job of translating His Words from the original languages, to English. The proper method of translation is known as Verbal Formal Equivalence. This process still takes place by such organizations as the Trinitarian Bible Society, in the translation of the scriptures into other languages around the world.

Jack

The more men in 4, if you mean the KJV translators, had to finish the job of 3 in this case as the translators did not just take one eclectic text, but used different texts, in different languages in considering what to put.

You still jumped a mighty gap in a couple of places.

a. where is your evidence that only the correct readings were chosen, by God's direction?

b. Unless it is your position that every person who approaches a text using verbal formal equivalence comes to the exact same translation then there is more to it than just using the right method. That would not result in only having the optimal, perfect translation of the autographs into English.

 

[tall73]

Amen, brother....I found a pagan/atheist website which bases it's whole anti-Christian teaching on the fact that they believe God's word is lost since the originals are lost. That website presented a far more sophisticated and detailed argument against the King James Bible being the word of God than anybody I have seen on this site. People don't realize that when they are arguing against God's word being preserved and delivered to the English speaking world as the King James Authorized Version, they are upholding atheistic philosophies against God. One of these days I'll find that website again, had it on my old comp which was ruined by a virus.

People, including the King James Translators, realize that the reality is we don't have perfect translations, but we still have the Word of God.

I think some have been persuaded through my posts, at least one said the wake up call for him was the fact that all modern versions are copyrighted for exclusive profits of their editors and publishers, and copyright law requires a certain number of substantial changes from the derived source to secure copyright.

And of course Jack pointed out that the KJV is still copyrighted in England. And the guy who got the right to print it for the king contracted with some others, and had big fights over the issue, with all of them at times making, and other times losing money.