The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

[Jamdoc]

Who converts anyone? Do you? Nope.... We can spread the word but only the Holy Spirit can seal the deal.

I believe that it is the events of the Rapture, the seven year deal and all the other events.. maybe even the appearance of the two witnesses..

Anyway.. God knows these 144,000 even now.. And, they will repent. They will be spared.. They will populate the earth in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Nobody repents without hearing and nobody hears without preaching. So if you've just removed all the Christians from the world. Nobody is preaching the gospel.

 

[JulieB67]

Get in line... There are 100's of people on both sides of this argument.. Using the same scripture with two or three or even more views.

Yes, I realize that. But I'm asking "you" why you choose to believe the Holy Spirit will be gone at this time when Christ says otherwise. If you believe differently, what is that verse saying to you? We like to think the scriptures back up our beliefs (both sides) and I was wondering what you think this verse is saying? And we can agree that both sides know the subject is the end times and Christ's return by the start of the chapter. I used to be on the other side of the argument (yours) but it didn't hold up for me after studying the scriptures for myself. But I'm always curious what each person thinks of this verse. If you don't have an opinion, that's fine, no offense.

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy [Ghost] Spirit."

 

[keras]

The 144,000 are from the tribulation period.. Non messianic Jews... changing to believe in Christ.

Too bad there is no scripture that supports this wild assertion.
The idea that the Jews will convert during the GT is not biblical. A few will, just a remnant. Romans 9:27

The holy people of God are present in the holy Land at the mid point of the final 7 years. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 BEFORE the GT.

 

[Douggg]

But I'm always curious what each person thinks of this verse. If you don't have an opinion, that's fine, no offense.

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy [Ghost] Spirit."

Talking about the disciples, and other Christians as they enter the long term, last days (of Israel in the land) future of the Jews and Israel, in the Olivet Discourse.

Julie, can I convince you of the Anytime Rapture View ?

 

[BABerean2]

Talking about the disciples, and other Christians as they enter the long term, last days (of Israel in the land) future of the Jews and Israel, in the Olivet Discourse.

View attachment 279908



Julie, can I convince you of the Anytime Rapture View ?


View attachment 279902

If it is labeled as before AOD, how can it be "anytime"?


.

 

[Douggg]

If it is labeled as before AOD, how can it be "anytime"?


.

Actually anytime before the ToD. The AoD comes later.

Anytime before the ToD. Like Pre-trib implies pre-70th week, the Anytime Rapture view implies anytime before the ToD act. You have to learn about the view before you can understand what it means.

I understand your point, though.

 

[JulieB67]

Julie, can I convince you of the Anytime Rapture View ?

No, because the Thessalonians believed in their time that Christ would return at anytime as well. And then Paul wrote them a second letter to nail down the timing. I know you believe they are separate events but that's not how the scriptures present themselves to me. After 1st Thes 4:17 Paul goes on and calls this event the Day of the Lord in chapter 5. In 2nd Thessalonians, the subject hasn't changed. And he says that "day shall not happen...." until the falling away and son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. And that makes him a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels.

No offense but I don't need a chart. I let the bible speak for itself. Especially when Christ and Paul are our teachers and leave us wanting nothing when it comes to this subject. They lay out everything in a simplicity that's easy to understand. We shouldn't need charts, etc. When Christ describes his coming as "immediately after the tribulation" I believe him. That's my duty as a Christian to take him at his word. He never taught a pretrib rapture and Paul didn't either. Paul says "all are changed" at the last trump. And I'll take his word for it as well. Why would I believe otherwise that's contrary to their teachings and most especially warnings to not be deceived on this subject? I wouldn't. No offense to you or anyone else that believes differently. But I am always curious on scripture break down and context when discussing this subject but not charts, no offense.

 

[Douggg]

No, because the Thessalonians believed in their time that Christ would return at anytime as well. And then Paul wrote them a second letter to nail down the timing. I know you believe they are separate events but that's not how the scriptures present themselves to me. After 1st Thes 4:17 Paul goes on and calls this event the Day of the Lord in chapter 5. In 2nd Thessalonians, the subject hasn't changed. And he says that "day shall not happen...." until the falling away and son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. No offense but I don't need a chart. I let the bible speak for itself. Especially when Christ and Paul are our teachers and leave us wanting nothing when it comes to this subject. They lay out everything in a simplicity that's easy to understand. We shouldn't need charts, etc. When Christ describes his coming as "immediately after the tribulation" I believe him. That's my duty as a Christian to take him at his word.

I am not understanding your view.

Why don't you make a chart of when you think the rapture will take place - so the rest of us can understand your view.

 

[JulieB67]

Why don't you make a chart of when you think the rapture will take place

I was editing my post when you replied.

 

[JacksBratt]

Nobody repents without hearing and nobody hears without preaching. So if you've just removed all the Christians from the world. Nobody is preaching the gospel.

Other than the very young... those that are left behind.... will of already heard. There will be tons of literature still around. Books, internet sites, bibles, and even those that thought they were saved and didn't get taken.... The gospel will not disappear.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, I realize that. But I'm asking "you" why you choose to believe the Holy Spirit will be gone at this time when Christ says otherwise. If you believe differently, what is that verse saying to you? We like to think the scriptures back up our beliefs (both sides) and I was wondering what you think this verse is saying? And we can agree that both sides know the subject is the end times and Christ's return by the start of the chapter. I used to be on the other side of the argument (yours) but it didn't hold up for me after studying the scriptures for myself. But I'm always curious what each person thinks of this verse. If you don't have an opinion, that's fine, no offense.

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy [Ghost] Spirit."

I looked up the chapter and verse. Seems to me that He is telling his disciples that they will be questioned in the things that they are going to do after Christ is gone but the Holy Spirit will give them the words to say when they are under questioning... which we know actually happened.

I see no connection to this and the timing of the Rapture... sorry.

 

[JacksBratt]

Too bad there is no scripture that supports this wild assertion.
The idea that the Jews will convert during the GT is not biblical. A few will, just a remnant. Romans 9:27

The holy people of God are present in the holy Land at the mid point of the final 7 years. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 BEFORE the GT.

I have read so many ideas on who these are.. it would make your head spin.

 

[JulieB67]

I see no connection to this and the timing of the Rapture... sorry.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are all about the timing of Christ's return. That's the very subject. Oh well, thanks for your response.

 

[Douggg]

No, because the Thessalonians believed in their time that Christ would return at anytime as well. And then Paul wrote them a second letter to nail down the timing. I know you believe they are separate events but that's not how the scriptures present themselves to me. After 1st Thes 4:17 Paul goes on and calls this event the Day of the Lord in chapter 5. In 2nd Thessalonians, the subject hasn't changed. And he says that "day shall not happen...." until the falling away and son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. And that makes him a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels. No offense but I don't need a chart. I let the bible speak for itself. Especially when Christ and Paul are our teachers and leave us wanting nothing when it comes to this subject. They lay out everything in a simplicity that's easy to understand. We shouldn't need charts, etc. When Christ describes his coming as "immediately after the tribulation" I believe him. That's my duty as a Christian to take him at his word. He never taught a pretrib rapture and Paul didn't either. Paul says "all are changed" at the last trump. And I'll take his word for it as well. Why would I believe otherwise that's contrary to their teachings and most especially warnings to not be deceived on this subject? I wouldn't. No offense to you or anyone else that believes differently. But I am always curious on scripture break down and context when discussing this subject but not charts, no offense.

If God's vials of God's wrath are poured out on the world during the great tribulation - then how does a post trib rapture view, account for... ?

1Thessalonains5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[JulieB67]

I believe God can pour out his wrath and not hurt his elect. With God, anything is possible. It's very much the same way he protected Daniel with the lion and the 3 in the fiery furnace. The ones around them died but they did not. I think God can protect his own from his own wrath. I don't even question that.

You yourself believe in "tribulation saints" obviously. You think these won't be protected at that time from God's wrath?

 

[BABerean2]

Why don't you make a chart of when you think the rapture will take place - so the rest of us can understand your view.

Most charts are meant to justify a man-made doctrine, by ignoring the scripture which kills them.

Those promoting a future 70th week of Daniel must ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.


Some people fail to recognize that the Greek word for "tribulation", and the Greek word for "wrath", are not the same word.
Or maybe they just ignore this fact to make their charts work.


Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[JacksBratt]

If God's vials of God's wrath are poured out on the world during the great tribulation - then how does a post trib rapture view, account for... ?

1Thessalonains5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

This is one of the very good points in support of the Pre Trib view.

 

[Douggg]

Most charts are meant to justify a man-made doctrine, by ignoring the scripture which kills them.

Then you should make a chart of when you think the rapture will take place that is correct. And post it.

 

[nolidad]

Japeth and Shem were way back, our origins are from Jacob.
Caucasians originated from the Caucasus region. Exactly where the Northern tribes were exiled to.
A good historical proof of the Israelite ancestry of Scotland is in the Declaration of Arbroath. It says how the Scottish peoples migrated across Europe from Israel.

I fully agree that there are Christians in [most] every, race, nation and language. John sees them all in the holy Land, their true heritage, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed all that area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

You are very very confused.

The middle east and negroid people is descended from Shem (where we get semite from ) the Asians from Ham (the Hamitic peoples) and the caucasians from Japheth. Follow the lineages from Genesis 10!

Genesis 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Magog is the one who settled by the Caucasus region thus giving us the name caucasian.

The first time that the sons of Jacob were exiled occured over as millenium later. Long after these lands were settled!

Scotland was settled before Israel was first dispersed from their lands. All of us need to be careful when it comes to these books that make these wild claims! They come and go. Just like Marshalls book of decades ago that "PROVED" beyond doubt that god made a covenant with America! That is just as bogus as well!

 

[Douggg]

This is one of the very good points in support of the Pre Trib view.

The rapture could be pre-trib (pre-70th week). But it could also be after the 70th week begins. But before the Antichrist goes into the temple sits and claims to be God.

The only shortcoming in the Pre-trib view is that it mandates that rapture must take place before the 70th week begins - by calling the entire 70th week the tribulation. And by insisting the revealing of the man of sin - as being when the Antichrist confirrns the covenant for 7 years - instead of being when the Antichrist commits tthe transgression of desolation act sometime in the middle part of the 7 years.

The Anytime Rapture View corrects for that shortcoming.