The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

[GingerBeer]

Dan 7:1-8 provides a time frame for it - by progressing through 4 world empires - to let the reader know that the judgment takes place some time after the fall of the pagan Roman empire. Daniel is writing chapter 7 in the middle of the 6th century B.C. Pagan Rome does not fall entirely until sometime in the 5th century A.D.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’ (i.e. the second coming of Christ)

The Judgment completes before the second coming. Once it does complete - we have the second coming.

Thus in Rev 14:6-7 "having an everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation saying... the hour of His judgment HAS come..."

And so it is "pre advent" and in vs 9-10 it is a matter of looking into the "details" of what is written in the books "The court sat and the books were opened"

And the subject of that judgment includes the saints "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

It proceeds along the lines that Paul defines for us in Romans 2-- so everything is open and above board..."no partiality with God" Rom 2:11

So somebody got out their abacus and calculated a date?

PS: why books in heaven? I can speculate that the writers understood what a scroll was in Daniel's time but not a "book" those were invented later. I presume the translators gave "books" instead of scrolls or tablets or whatever Daniel really wrote because people before that last few decades used books. Nowadays it's all computer tablets, laptops, and desktops. I suppose that in heaven computers and books are not needed - at least not paper & ink books or clay tablets or papyrus scrolls - maybe "ethereal records" would be vague enough to convey the idea.

 

[BobRyan]

So somebody got out their abacus and calculated a date?

Step one was to notice enough details in Daniel 7 to see that it was going to be before the 2nd coming and after the fall of the Pagan Roman empire... also after the 1260 years of dark ages that Daniel 7 mentions when it says "times time and half a time". Because all apocalyptic prophecy - like that of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks (490 literal years) -- uses day-for-year expansion/symbolism.

That 1260 years ended in 1798 so - the judgment would not start until sometime after 1798.

It is Daniel 8 that gives the more fine-tuned details for just when after 1798 that judgment would begin.

But in this thread - I am just interesting in getting "the basics" of the fact that Daniel 7 has these details.
1. The judgment includes the saints (just as does 2Cor 5:10 judgment)
2. The judgment is "an investigation" into the details of what is found written in the books of heaven. Just as Christ said "not everyone who says Lord lord will enter". Matthew 7
3. it is "before the Advent" of Christ - before the second coming

Thus the short hand term "pre-advent investigative judgment"

Daniel 7 forms the preface and context for Daniel 8. Daniel 8 magnifies the details already given to provide even more detail on the topic within the Daniel 7 framework.

Rev 14:6-7 reminds us that there comes a point when the message God sends to Earth looks like this "An everlasting gospel to preach to every nation..saying fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come"

 

[GingerBeer]

Step one was to notice enough details in Daniel 7 to see that it was going to be before the 2nd coming and after the fall of the Pagan Roman empire... also after the 1260 years of dark ages that Daniel 7 mentions when it says "times time and half a time". Because all apocalyptic prophecy - like that of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks (490 literal years) -- uses day-for-year expansion/symbolism.

That 1260 years ended in 1798 so - the judgment would not start until sometime after 1798.

It is Daniel 8 that gives the more fine-tuned details for just when after 1798 that judgment would begin.

But in this thread - I am just interesting in getting "the basics" of the fact that Daniel 7 has these details.
1. The judgment includes the saints (just as does 2Cor 5:10 judgment)
2. The judgment is "an investigation" into the details of what is found written in the books of heaven. Just as Christ said "not everyone who says Lord lord will enter". Matthew 7
3. it "before the Advent" of Christ - before the second coming

Thus the short hand term "pre-advent investigative judgment"

So they did get out their abacus and calculated this stuff? Fantastic!

1,260 years you say? Where do these come from, is it from a passage of scripture where 1,260 years are explicitly mentioned or is there some interpretation needed to get to 1,260 years?

 

[BobRyan]

So they did get out their abacus and calculated this stuff? Fantastic!

1,260 years you say? Where do these come from, is it from a passage of scripture where 1,260 years are explicitly mentioned or is there some interpretation needed to get to 1,260 years?

In the same way Daniel 9 and seventy-weeks (490 days = 490 years) precisely identified the time of the start of the ministry of Christ -- at his first coming

Daniel 7, 8, 9 all use "day-for-year" -- so in Daniel 9 the term seventy weeks - is in fact 490 literal years and it accurately predicted in the first coming of Christ.

Daniel 7 uses the same day-for-year.

If you look in the margin of your Bible for "times time and half a time" (for example in the margin of an NASB) you will see that "Time" is said to be "year" and "times" is "years".

Time -- 1 year (12 months)
times - 2 years (24 months
half time - 1/2 year (6 months)
==========================
For a total of 42 months.

Revelation 11 has that same time period 42 months in Rev 11:2
Rev 12:14 - has that same period as times, time and half a time.

Rev 12 – 1260 days = times time half-time 12:6, 12:14
Rev 11 – 42 months 11:2
Rev 13:5 42 months

1260 days / 30 days per month = 42 months.

So then 1260 years of the dark ages The longest span of specific persecution of the saints at that intense level - nothing else like it. So then it is mentioned in Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12 and Rev 13.

 

[GingerBeer]

Daniel 7, 8, 9 all use "day-for-year"

Please, what verses say that?

 

[BobRyan]

PS: why books in heaven? I can speculate that the writers understood what a scroll was in Daniel's time but not a "book" those were invented later. I presume the translators gave "books" instead of scrolls or tablets or whatever Daniel really wrote because people before that last few decades used books. Nowadays it's all computer tablets, laptops, and desktops. I suppose that in heaven computers and books are not needed - at least not paper & ink books or clay tablets or papyrus scrolls - maybe "ethereal records" would be vague enough to convey the idea.

Indeed - some form of records where it is objective and visible to all the "myriads and myriads" of Dan 7:9-10 -- all of which would be finite beings... and in a courtroom context where "evidence" is needed to conclude verdict.

 

[GingerBeer]

If you look in the margin of your Bible for "times time and half a time" (for example in the margin of an NASB) you will see that "Time" is said to be "year" and "times" is "years".

Time -- 1 year (12 months)
times - 2 years (24 months
half time - 1/2 year (6 months)
==========================
For a total of 42 months.

Why is "times" exactly 2 rather than 4 or 17 or 3?

 

[BobRyan]

Please, what verses say that?

Well we start with Daniel 9 where every Bible scholar on the planet freely (a generalization) admits that

1. Dan 9 is apocalyptic text
2. Dan 9 is using day-for-year expansion
3. This 70 week, 490 year timeline works out to predict the first coming of Christ.

from 457 B.C. to A.D. 27 the baptism of Christ at 69 weeks (483 years) and the remaining 7 years including the 3 and one half year ministry of Christ at which point He is "cut off" - crucified... and the remaining 3.5 years taking us to the stoning of Stephen and the start of Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

 

[GingerBeer]

Indeed - some form of records where it is objective and visible to all the "myriads and myriads" of Dan 7:9-10 -- all of which would be finite beings... and in a courtroom context where "evidence" is needed to conclude verdict.

The phrase "and books were opened" probably does not bear the weight that your system of beliefs imposes upon it.

 

[BobRyan]

Why is "times" exactly 2 rather than 4 or 17 or 3?

That this is a 3.5 year period of apocalyptic time is agreed by Bible scholars in all denominations. What they do with it may differ -- but they all agree this is 3.5 years... 42 months.

And the fact that Rev 12 lists it as "Times time and half a time" as well as 1260 days -- leaves no other option.

 

[GingerBeer]

Well we start with Daniel 9 where everyone on the planet freely admits that it is apocalyptic text and that it is using day-for-year expansion and that this works out from 457 B.C. to A.D. 27 the baptism of Christ at 69 weeks (483 years) and the remaining 7 years including the 3 and one half year ministry of Christ at which point He is "cut off" - crucified... and the remaining 3.5 years taking us to the stoning of Stephen and the start of Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

I am on the planet and I do not "freely admit" it.

 

[BobRyan]

Please, what verses say that?

Well we start with Daniel 9 where every Bible scholar on the planet freely (a generalization) admits that

1. Dan 9 is apocalyptic text
2. Dan 9 is using day-for-year expansion
3. This 70 week, 490 year timeline works out to predict the first coming of Christ.

from 457 B.C. to A.D. 27 the baptism of Christ at 69 weeks (483 years) and the remaining 7 years including the 3 and one half year ministry of Christ at which point He is "cut off" - crucified... and the remaining 3.5 years taking us to the stoning of Stephen and the start of Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

I am on the planet and I do not "freely admit" it.

I should not say "every human on the planet" - we do have atheists, agnostics and wild-guessers etc

My point is "this one is the easy part" in that those scholars who study this chapter admit to this one basic detail even though they are not all in the same denomination.

 

[GingerBeer]

That this is a 3.5 year period of apocalyptic time is agreed by Bible scholars in all denominations. What they do with it may differ -- but they all agree this is 3.5 years... 42 months.

The passage does not say 3.5. It says "a time and times and the dividing of time" in the KJV.

 

[GingerBeer]

It is by far the best and most consistent accounting for those details above.

A better one is to account for the details are prophetic symbols or a vision of heaven that is relevant to Daniel's reader rather than to people 1,260 'years' later.

 

[GingerBeer]

That this is a 3.5 year period of apocalyptic time is agreed by Bible scholars in all denominations. What they do with it may differ -- but they all agree this is 3.5 years... 42 months.

And the fact that Rev 12 lists it as "Times time and half a time" as well as 1260 days -- leaves no other option.

"The all agree" do they? Maybe many do. Why is 3.5 important? If it is 3.5 years then why do you refer to it as 1,260 years?

 

[GingerBeer]

Not true - since everyone already agrees that Daniel 9 predicts the coming of Christ - the first coming of Christ - more then 490 years later.

this is the easy part.

It already worked out that way... those scores are already in.

Daniel 9 is not Daniel 7. And 3.5 is not 1,260 years. Nor have you made an airtight case for "time, times, and the dividing of times' being exactly 3.5. You've simply stated it without any significant exegesis to show that it is so.

 

[BobRyan]

The passage does not say 3.5. It says "a time and times and the dividing of time" in the KJV.

And Rev 12 uses the same terms - saying it is 1260 days - which is 42 months of 30days/month = 3.5 years.

Again -- this is the easy part.

 

[GingerBeer]

My point is "this one is the easy part" in that those scholars who study this chapter admit to this one basic detail even though they are not all in the same denomination.

A bible commentary available in e-sword says:

until a time and times and half a time (R.V.)] The saints will be given into the hand of this godless king for three years and a half. ‘Time’ (a different word from that in the preceding clause, and in the note on Dan 7:12 rendered season) has the same sense of year, which it had in Dan 4:16 : the same expression (in its Hebrew form) recurs in Dan 12:7 (also of the duration of Antiochus’ persecution); comp. also Rev 12:14. For the particulars of Antiochus’ persecution, see the notes on Dan 11:31. It began with the mission of Apollonius against Jerusalem, probably about June 168, and with the edict of Antiochus which was immediately afterwards put in force (1Ma 1:20-53); and it ended (substantially) with the re-dedication of the Temple, after its three years’ desecration, on the 25th of Chisleu [Dec.], 165 (1Ma 4:52 f.). This, in all probability, is the period of 3? years which is here intended. The 3? years might also, however, be reckoned from the erection of the heathen altar in the court of the Temple, on the 15th of Chisleu, b.c. 168, to the death of Antiochus, which took place probably about the middle of 164 (see on Dan 8:14): the terminus a quo would then agree with that of the 1290 days in Dan 12:11, and the two periods would be (approximately) the same; but the six months before December 168 are more likely to have been included in the period of persecution, than the six months after December 165, when the victories of Judas had stemmed the tide of the persecution, and public worship had been resumed in the Temple.​

That isn't 1.260 years after Daniel's time.

 

[BobRyan]

"The all agree" do they? Maybe many do. Why is 3.5 important? If it is 3.5 years then why do you refer to it as 1,260 years?

for the same reason that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 is not 490 days but rather 490 years.

There is no decree to rebuild Jerusalem 490 literal days before Christ starts His ministry - or 483 days before.

But there is one 483 years before (69 weeks of years) and in the midst of that week He is crucified.

We already have the "test" of the proposal in real history which is why all the Protestant reformers adopted that understanding of Daniel 9.

 

[BobRyan]

A bible commentary available in e-sword says:

until a time and times and half a time (R.V.)] The saints will be given into the hand of this godless king for three years and a half. ‘Time’ (a different word from that in the preceding clause, and in the note on Dan 7:12 rendered season) has the same sense of year, which it had in Dan 4:16 : the same expression (in its Hebrew form) recurs in Dan 12:7 (also of the duration of Antiochus’ persecution); comp. also Rev 12:14. For the particulars of Antiochus’ persecution, see the notes on Dan 11:31. It began with the mission of Apollonius against Jerusalem, probably about June 168, and with the edict of Antiochus which was immediately afterwards put in force (1Ma 1:20-53); and it ended (substantially) with the re-dedication of the Temple, after its three years’ desecration, on the 25th of Chisleu [Dec.], 165 (1Ma 4:52 f.). This, in all probability, is the period of 3? years which is here intended. The 3? years might also, however, be reckoned from the erection of the heathen altar in the court of the Temple, on the 15th of Chisleu, b.c. 168, to the death of Antiochus, which took place probably about the middle of 164 (see on Dan 8:14): the terminus a quo would then agree with that of the 1290 days in Dan 12:11, and the two periods would be (approximately) the same; but the six months before December 168 are more likely to have been included in the period of persecution, than the six months after December 165, when the victories of Judas had stemmed the tide of the persecution, and public worship had been resumed in the Temple.​

That isn't 1.260 years after Daniel's time.

They munge up a number of details - but they are still sticking with 3.5 years as the apocalyptic time given.

As I said - that is the easy part. It is hard to find a scholar that does not get that point.

Just as it is hard to find actual Bible scholars that mess up the Daniel 9 seventy weeks to the point that it is not 490 days -- expanded out to 490 years.


Times Time and half a time - 3.5 years in the apocalyptic text of Daniel 7
==============================


Times time and half time

Daniel 7 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Albert Barnes – Daniel 7
The eleventh - denoted by the little horn - was Antiochus Epiphanes, who brought so many calamitities upon the Hebrew people. His reign lasted, according to Bertholdt, “a time, and times, and half a time” - or three years and a half; and then the kingdom was restored to the people of God to be a permanent reign, and, ultimately, under the Messiah, to fill the world and endure to the end of time.



Coffman
Daniel 7 Commentary - James Burton Coffman Commentaries on the Bible
3. God promised to nourish his church during her wilderness probation (Revelation 12:14). This period is described as "always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:18-20); but it is also referred to in this passage (Revelation 12:14), as A TIME AND TIMES AND HALF A TIME.
4. This same period when God will nourish his Church in the wilderness, protecting her from Satan's hatred, is also called in Revelation 12:6 A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREE-SCORE DAYS.


Jam Faucet Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Unabridged
Daniel Overview - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's Unabridged Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
The second half of these 3 ½ years is mentioned more than once in the Revelation either as "a time, times and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, compare with Daniel 7:25) or as 42 months (Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5) or also as 1260 days (Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6). If one assumes that it is always the same period of 3 ½ years one discerns that these "prophetic years" are 12 x 30 days.

Matthew Henry
Daniel 7 Commentary - Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible
And in these daring attempts he shall for a time prosper and have success they shall be given into his hand until time, times, and half a time (that is, for three years and a half), that famous prophetical measure of time which we meet with in the Revelation, which is sometimes called forty-two months, sometimes 1260 days, which come all to one. But at the end of that time the judgment shall sit and take away his dominion (Daniel 7:26)