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The practice of healing and working of miracles

Guojing

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If you believe sickness, death, and poverty are for this world, and we all pray the Lord's prayer: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," then you are going to have to conclude that heaven is full of sickness, death, and poverty.
I am waiting for someone against healing provided in the atonement to make this argument.

Since you are using the Lord's prayer as something for us to follow today, haven't you realized that, at the conclusion of that prayer in Matthew 6, Jesus explicitly said

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do you also follow this today?
 
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sunlover1

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So something I've been pondering and thinking about is healing, the gift of healing, the working of miracles, and why we don't see them as much. Now this is a rather worn out topic, but I hope this discussion will come from a different angle.

In another popular thread here was are discussing this, but that thread is more about are we limited to how many healings. This is more about the practice of healing and maybe the way we go about it as being part of the problem in not seeing as many.

So in the gospels and the book of Acts, we see a number of healings and miracles take place at the hand of Jesus and the Apostles.

Acts 3:1-7
1 One afternoon Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.
4 Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”
7 Taking him by the right hand, Peter helped him up, and at once the man’s feet and ankles were made strong.

This is one very good example with a number of considerations I think we should give to this topic.

  1. LOCATION. Peter and John were going into the Temple to pray. As they were passing into the gate, this man who was born lame gets their attention. Now the gospels don't mention this man at all. We can probably safely assume that Jesus passed by him at least one time in His earthly walk. So Jesus did not heal this man. Why?
  2. TIME. Working within the will of the Father is not just about doing something that we know the Father approves of. It is also about doing those things within the timing of the Father. Mary and Martha pleaded with Jesus to come and heal Lazarus before he died, yet Jesus waited until Lazarus had been dead for 4 whole days. This is just one example of what it means to walk out the will of the Father in both practice and timing. It is the will of the Father that people are healed, but it may not be the right time. What other considerations can we pull from this?
  3. PRACTICE. Peter says, "In the name of Jesus... get up and walk!" He does not say a long winded prayer over him. He does not anoint this man with oil and tell him to be blessed on his journey. He then grabs this lame man by the hand and pulls him to his feet. Now any of us who have studied the scripture and have followed the Lord for any length of time should agree that faith without action is dead. (James 2:14-26) God always requires a person to exercise their faith. Always. Even when Jesus healed the lame, He would tell them, "Get up and walk." My hunch tells me that Peter was simply mimicking what he had heard and seen Jesus do when Peter told this lame man to get up and walk.

Also, let's discuss another well known biblical passage on healing.

14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:14-16

This passage in James seems to offer some validity to the modern practice of anointing with oil and prayer. But I think there are a couple key differences as well.

  1. James is writing about church practice, within the body. "Is any one of you" To me this is written specifically for Christians.
  2. James is specifically referring to those who are sick, not necessarily those in need of miraculous healing. The two are not always the same.
  3. James says the ELDERS (plural) should pray over the sick. Not many churches have multiple elders (pastors/overseers).
  4. James says a pre-requisite of this healing is confession of sins. I have definitely not been a member of a church that practiced public confession of sins. The text says, "confess your sins TO EACH OTHER". Perhaps a reason less healing is happening, is because we do not feel it necessary to humble ourselves before other believers and confess the things that we have fallen short in.
Now again, this is a different circumstance and application than the working of miracles as I started with.

Say someone come into the church in a wheelchair. Throughout the service, they become convinced they can be restored and walk again. So they go forward for healing. What follows is what I have personally seen in more than a handful of Charismatic churches, so my experience. The minister will grab some oil, lay a hand on this person, say a 3-5 minute prayer, and then send them on their way.

What I'm saying here, is maybe that practice is wrong. And maybe can use some tweaking. Now certainly, God does not need our help or proper form and etiquette to work His wonders. But He does require faith! Faith not only in the one being ministered to, but faith from the one ministering!

I can imagine Jesus in a similar environment, telling this person in the wheelchair to just get up and walk. Then taking them by the hand and helping them to their feet.

That to me is what we should look like when we minister to others. Now, I'm not saying any of this from a position of authority or even experience. I confess that I myself have fallen prey to the "It's safer and easier to just pray and hope God shows up." But I think it's time to stop that.

How many times do we tell a lame person to walk before it's figured out that it's not God's timing yet? I don't know, I have no idea what that process looks like. I know that reading examples of people like Smith Wigglesworth, he would have to say it a few times, but eventually it would happen. It just takes faith.

Let us pray for our eyes to be open to how the Father is working around us. Let us pray for ears to hear Him when He tells us to go. Let us pray that He would stretch forth His hand and perform signs and wonders through us so that His name would be glorified!
It isn't that it's not God's timing.
IMO, that's an excuse the church uses because they're not skilled in the Word.
I could be wrong but isn't it ALWAYS God's will to heal now?
Isn't 'today' the day of salvation?

It seems straightforward.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Since you are using the Lord's prayer as something for us to follow today, haven't you realized that, at the conclusion of that prayer in Matthew 6, Jesus explicitly said

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do you also follow this today?
Of course. What is your point?
 
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sunlover1

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Understand... why not ask the poster if he is or not ???

The more I see Him move the more I credit His activities as being the ultimate Grace rather than any Gift I may have. For me He is the focus - in early Acts they prayed "Extend YOUR hand to heal"

I prefer not to claim a gift - that is for others to decide.
Hi Carl!
Healing is the children's bread, right? Or is that deliverance?
Or both :)

By His stripes we were healed anyhow. That's a thing too.
It's like anything with God, takes faith and then bam.
I've been healed immediately and been healed more slowly.
Truly don't believe it was due to God stretching it out though.

We assume so much but we must stick with His Word or we look the fool to the world
and that world needs us now more than ever, IMO.

practice makes perfect too!
how many people did you speak life into today?
I know right?
But I did pray for healing for about 5 in the past week or so.
one was on vent w cov. she left hosp last night wooot.
Not me, but He "used " me.
But a donkey would have been sufficient had no one stepped up.

I could be off, but IMO, HE wants them healed/free etc.
but HE needs US to "speak" the Word

So, if that's the case, we need to pray without ceasing.
Okay sorry so long. It's fun to consider these things
Blessings
 
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sunlover1

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The way that information was presented, it absolutely was presented as a cessationist argument. I grew up in that crowd, I can spot a cessationist talking point when I read or hear one. The poster in question didn't even hint at the possibility of present day healing, only that people would be fully healed on the day of redemption.

When my mother died of cancer, everyone was told that God doesn't heal people as He once did, but now that she had passed she had her new body. Cessationism sounds really nice, wonderful, and scriptural. But it's really just unbelief wrapped in a nice bow.
I'm sorry about your mom! :(

I remember when my mom had cancer.
I was a youngish unchurched Christian.
I had read in the Bible where Hed said to pray and we'd receive.
SO naturally, I prayed for her!
But she died
I was shocked and puzzled!
True story lol.

NOW, many many years later, I have a deeper understanding of healing etc.
And, I'm glad she got to leave. She was tired and she was
one of the ones spoken of that is too good for this earth.
That's biblical iirc
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I'm sorry about your mom! :(

I remember when my mom had cancer.
I was a youngish unchurched Christian.
I had read in the Bible where Hed said to pray and we'd receive.
SO naturally, I prayed for her!
But she died
I was shocked and puzzled!
True story lol.

NOW, many many years later, I have a deeper understanding of healing etc.
And, I'm glad she got to leave. She was tired and she was
one of the ones spoken of that is too good for this earth.
That's biblical iirc
My condolences to you as well.

I remember the night before she passed I prayed that God would either heal her and give her more years or that he would end her suffering. She passed not long after that.

There is A LOT I do not understand about scripture and about the Lord, but I do believe He is still in the healing business, even if I may not see it all the time.
 
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sunlover1

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My condolences to you as well.

I remember the night before she passed I prayed that God would either heal her and give her more years or that he would end her suffering. She passed not long after that.

There is A LOT I do not understand about scripture and about the Lord, but I do believe He is still in the healing business, even if I may not see it all the time.
SAME. I bet we could meditate on one chapter of one book and learn more daily LOL
So we'd be like those at the throne, with each new revelation, our baby jumps and we're all saying "HOLY!"
more revelation, "HOLY"
more revelation, "HOLY"
more revelation, "HOLY"

If you understood that last part lol well it's a pretty cool thing to consider
 
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Carl Emerson

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I hear the same issue raised again and again...

"I held fast to God's Word" - and didn't see the result I expected...

There is a big difference between holding onto a principle in Scripture and actually hearing God's living Word on an issue.

We need to be teaching folks to hear Him.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ - that is His living Word spoken personally to you.

Faith then is a gift given for you to know an outcome.

From then the critical matter becomes not slipping into unbelief or disobedience.

So it is never a matter of maintaining a mindset from what you have read in the Word - rather holding onto what He has spoken to you personally.

If you do this then the outcome is sure to come to pass.
 
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ARBITER01

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I hear the same issue raised again and again...

"I held fast to God's Word" - and didn't see the result I expected...

There is a big difference between holding onto a principle in Scripture and actually hearing God's living Word on an issue.

We need to be teaching folks to hear Him.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ - that is His living Word spoken personally to you.

Faith then is a gift given for you to know an outcome.

From then the critical matter becomes not slipping into unbelief or disobedience.

So it is never a matter of maintaining a mindset from what you have read in the Word - rather holding onto what He has spoken to you personally.

If you do this then the outcome is sure to come to pass.
Carl is absolutely right on this.

It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power, and we have to hear from Him, not try to act on our belief.
 
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Guojing

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Carl is absolutely right on this.

It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power, and we have to hear from Him, not try to act on our belief.

Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile this view regarding healing and salvation, if you believe both healing and salvation comes from the atonement, like what hislegacy is asking here?


We won't tell an unbeliever who is believing God to save him that he may not be saved because "It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power"?
 
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Guojing

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"I held fast to God's Word" - and didn't see the result I expected...

If an unbeliever believes that Christ died for his sins and rose again on the 3rd day for his salvation, will he immediately be saved, without worrying about all the other issues you were bringing up with regards to healing?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile this view regarding healing and salvation, if you believe both healing and salvation comes from the atonement, like what hislegacy is asking here?


We won't tell an unbeliever who is believing God to save him that he may not be saved because "It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power"?
It is always God's will to save and heal, as evidenced by the facts that He has already provided for both.
Why is not everyone saved? It is for the same reason that everyone is not healed. At this point, the perfect will of God is for all to be saved and healed. Why is not everyone saved and healed? The answer for both is the same. Ignorance of the provision. or denial of the provision. It is not "because God does not want them healed and saved."
 
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ARBITER01

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Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile this view regarding healing and salvation, if you believe both healing and salvation comes from the atonement, like what hislegacy is asking here?


We won't tell an unbeliever who is believing God to save him that he may not be saved because "It is always GOD's decision on what He wants to do with His power"?
The subject I was responding to was about healing, not about salvation, you brought that up to me with your question.

But,....since you brought it up, it is still GOD's decision on who is saved in my personal opinion. It is offered to everyone, but only certain ones actually respond, and certain ones who will receive.

Again, this is my personal opinion on it.
 
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Guojing

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The subject I was responding to was about healing, not about salvation, you brought that up to me with your question.

But,....since you brought it up, it is still GOD's decision on who is saved in my personal opinion. It is offered to everyone, but only certain ones actually respond.

You would agree that once anyone respond, he will immediately be saved?
 
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Guojing

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It is always God's will to save and heal, as evidenced by the facts that He has already provided for both.
Why is not everyone saved? It is for the same reason that everyone is not healed. At this point, the perfect will of God is for all to be saved and healed. Why is not everyone saved and healed? The answer for both is the same. Ignorance of the provision. or denial of the provision. It is not "because God does not want them healed and saved."

You would agree that once anyone believe in the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, he will immediately be saved?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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If an unbeliever believes that Christ died for his sins and rose again on the 3rd day for his salvation, will he immediately be saved, without worrying about all the other issues you were bringing up with regards to healing?
So if he is a mass murderer and continues on his mass murdering ways, is he saved?
If he worships Baal and continues to worship Baal, will he be saved?
If the Jesus he believes in is actually a singer in a Mexican band. Then is he saved?
The point is that there are conditions for salvation that determine whether or not someone is saved.
Just like healing... you have to discern the wine. If you fail to discern the blood of the Lord, then you will not be saved. You can drink the wine until you are falling down drunk. You will not be saved. It is the same with discerning the Lord's body. If you do not know why Jesus suffered in His body with stripes and the cross, then you may be sick, weak, and die young.
 
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ARBITER01

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You would agree that once anyone respond, he will immediately be saved?
If they responded to GOD prepping the heart and they reached up to GOD speaking out from the heart,.... then yes, I wouldn't see why not.
 
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Guojing

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The point is that there are conditions for salvation that determine whether or not someone is saved.

Given what you mentioned to me about the Lord's prayer previously, I think I can understand what you are trying to say here. Thanks.
 
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