The practice of healing and working of miracles

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes... signs are following because He is getting the Glory - the healing is God centred rather than man centred or gift centred.

This seems to be where we have gone wrong.

Are you sure about that? Corinthian church didn't seem to have any issues with healings and they were not very moral or holy, and thus not likely to be super God centered either.

Scripture always says that God confirmed the word spoken with signs and wonders. So are healings more a confirmation of the message preached or are they a reflection of how we live our lives?

 

[Guojing]

Correct - but complete healing of a specific ailment can be fully healed by Him meantime.

Of course God can heal in the meantime, but as we are both saying, Paul does not promise us that he will, in this current dispensation of grace.

His teaching to us in Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 would make no sense otherwise.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Of course God can heal, but as we are both saying, Paul does not promise us that he will, in this current dispensation of grace.

God does

 

[Guojing]

God does

How will you understand what Paul is teaching us in Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

When Benie Johnson finally passed away from cancer, haven't you noticed Bill Johnson relied on Philippians 4:6-7 to comfort himself, in the sermon he preached after that event?

Was he showing "unbelief wrapped in a nice bow" to you?

See comments like this only reinforce the perception that you are a cessationist.

So are you?

Just because someone doesn't get healed doesn't mean healings still don't happen. That is a rather silly and nonsensical position

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Of course God can heal in the meantime, but as we are both saying, Paul does not promise us that he will, in this current dispensation of grace.

His teaching to us in Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 would make no sense otherwise.

You know I cannot find one example in the entire Bible where it says that God healed someone by letting them die

 

[Guojing]

You know I cannot find one example in the entire Bible where it says that God healed someone by letting them die

Well, that is not what those 2 passages are saying.

 

[Guojing]

See comments like this only reinforce the perception that you are a cessationist.

So are you?

Just because someone doesn't get healed doesn't mean healings still don't happen. That is a rather silly and nonsensical position

I think Bill Johnson was correct in using that Pauline teaching.

Does that make me a cessationist?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, that is not what those 2 passages are saying.

But you are using them in that context

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think Bill Johnson was correct in using that Pauline teaching.

Does that make me a cessationist?

I didnt say anything about Bill Johnson. I asked you if you are a cessationist, it's a simple yes or no question

 

[Guojing]

I didnt say anything about Bill Johnson. I asked you if you are a cessationist, it's a simple yes or no question

The post you replied to was about him.

As I said, I believe God can and does heal today. So by that definition, I am not.

 

[Guojing]

But you are using them in that context

No, you were using a strawman argument in reply.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No, you were using a strawman argument in reply.

lol how was my reply a strawman? If you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one in this thread whose understood you to be a cessationist by how you respond to certain words or terms. If you aren't, then cool. Even if you are, cool. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other.

The only time you've said anything about healing specifically in this thread, it was using Romans 8 to support the notation that the resurrection and transformation of all saints is the ultimate healing. The Bible does not refer to that event as "healing", and as I stated previously, there's not one instance in all of scripture where God healed someone by letting them die.

Perhaps you should be more clear in the future, and much less vague in your responses if you want people to understand you and your position more clearly?

 

[Guojing]

Perhaps you should be more clear in the future, and much less vague in your responses if you want people to understand you and your position more clearly?

What I said was this to Carl.

Of course God can heal in the meantime, but as we are both saying, Paul does not promise us that he will, in this current dispensation of grace.

His teaching to us in Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 would make no sense otherwise.

If you are unclear about what I meant in my literal words in that post, you are free to ask me to clarify.

But you jumped from that paragraph into claiming that I am saying "God healed someone by letting them die", which is totally a strawman fallacy.

 

[ARBITER01]

lol how was my reply a strawman? If you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one in this thread whose understood you to be a cessationist by how you respond to certain words or terms. If you aren't, then cool. Even if you are, cool. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other.

The only time you've said anything about healing specifically in this thread, it was using Romans 8 to support the notation that the resurrection and transformation of all saints is the ultimate healing. The Bible does not refer to that event as "healing", and as I stated previously, there's not one instance in all of scripture where God healed someone by letting them die.

Perhaps you should be more clear in the future, and much less vague in your responses if you want people to understand you and your position more clearly?

You're suspicion is correct.

He's argued against the gifts in other forums outside of this one.

 

[Aaron112]

there's not one instance in all of scripture where God healed someone by letting them die.

Totally outside of this thread, just only on this perspective, Corrie Ten Boom's Sister, in a concentration camp during wwII, and Corrie, by their testimonies, were sure and certain (and had a better testimony of true love and true faith in Jesus all their lives, better than any other women I ever heard of or read of in the last several centuries anywhere)
that her sister, Betsy I think was her name, was indeed and in fact and in faith and by God's Plan and Purpose
released from the horror of the prison camp, from the suffering of illness present and that would have been future,
specifically expecting healing, she was healed when she breathed her last.
That's not the only testimony of such faith, but it is the best and most recent I know of.

 

[jiminpa]

No... not tricked. Just ignorant of what the scripture says belongs to them. Healing has been provided to all believers in the atonement. 90% do not know it and so do not take it to themselves. They are just unaware of this benefit. It is sitting on the shelf there, an unopened gift.

One of the problems is that they're being told that the gift is off limits, by people, (and let's be real about it), who are profiting off of telling Christians not to accept what God has done for them. John MacArthur and Joni Erickson Tada and all of the wolves like them have gotten very wealthy walking God's children, who are in desperate need, past the gift pile and telling them that they can't have any.

 

[jiminpa]

The way that information was presented, it absolutely was presented as a cessationist argument. I grew up in that crowd, I can spot a cessationist talking point when I read or hear one. The poster in question didn't even hint at the possibility of present day healing, only that people would be fully healed on the day of redemption.

When my mother died of cancer, everyone was told that God doesn't heal people as He once did, but now that she had passed she had her new body. Cessationism sounds really nice, wonderful, and scriptural. But it's really just unbelief wrapped in a nice bow.

Wouldn't that make it a white washed tomb, full of literal dead bodies, and painted to look like a clean and holy thing?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If you believe sickness, death, and poverty are for this world, and we all pray the Lord's prayer: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," then you are going to have to conclude that heaven is full of sickness, death, and poverty.
I am waiting for someone against healing provided in the atonement to make this argument.

 

[jiminpa]

One of the problems is that they're being told that the gift is off limits, by people, (and let's be real about it), who are profiting off of telling Christians not to accept what God has done for them. John MacArthur and Joni Erickson Tada and all of the wolves like them have gotten very wealthy walking God's children, who are in desperate need, past the gift pile and telling them that they can't have any.

I want to modify that perspective. It's like walking starving children through an expensive restaurant during the dinner rush and making sure that they understand that it is only for the wealthy, and they may have had the last food they will ever get in their lives. That is cessationism, in any of it's packages.