The practice of healing and working of miracles

[Carl Emerson]

This is a cessationist belief and as such goes against the rules of this sub. Contribute in a meaningful way according to our rules please.

This perspective does not have to preclude healing today...

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is 100% cessationism. God provides healing for all people, at all times. Not just when they die

Yes and because it is a 'both and' and not an 'either or' it is not cessationist.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Considering our Salvation is also in the Atonement, would your position be the same with Salvation on demand or on our time table?

No

 

[Carl Emerson]

A scripture that doesn't seem to get a lot of attention in this regard is:

When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to Jesus, and He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
“He took on our infirmities
and carried our diseases.” Matthew 8:16-17 (BSB)

Jesus healing people was a fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4. The same scripture that Peter quotes in 1 Peter 2:21-25 regarding salvation. The implication is quite clear, that the cross not only paid for our sins, but it also provides the means by which we can receive actual, tangible healing. Thus when those in Acts declared, "In Jesus name..." people were actually healed by the same sacrifice that gives us eternal life.

So as you correctly comment, if we are going to believe that the cross provides salvation at this present moment, we should also believe that the cross provides healing for our bodies... because it does!

Yes it does provide healing as well as salvation, healing is part of salvation, but is not fully realised until after death.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This perspective does not have to preclude healing today...

The way that information was presented, it absolutely was presented as a cessationist argument. I grew up in that crowd, I can spot a cessationist talking point when I read or hear one. The poster in question didn't even hint at the possibility of present day healing, only that people would be fully healed on the day of redemption.

When my mother died of cancer, everyone was told that God doesn't heal people as He once did, but now that she had passed she had her new body. Cessationism sounds really nice, wonderful, and scriptural. But it's really just unbelief wrapped in a nice bow.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes it does provide healing as well as salvation, healing is part of salvation, but is not fully realised until after death.

But the scripture in question, Matthew 8:16-17, has absolutely nothing to do with a future day of complete healing. That's a misapplication of scripture. It is in reference to actual, present day healing. Things that cessationists deny

 

[Carl Emerson]

The way that information was presented, it absolutely was presented as a cessationist argument. I grew up in that crowd, I can spot a cessationist talking point when I read or hear one. The poster in question didn't even hint at the possibility of present day healing, only that people would be fully healed on the day of redemption.

When my mother died of cancer, everyone was told that God doesn't heal people as He once did, but now that she had passed she had her new body. Cessationism sounds really nice, wonderful, and scriptural. But it's really just unbelief wrapped in a nice bow.

Friend I am very involved in praying for healing and seeing God do amazing work but agree with the poster on that point without being a cessationist.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But the scripture in question, Matthew 8:16-17, has absolutely nothing to do with a future day of complete healing. That's a misapplication of scripture. It is in reference to actual, present day healing. Things that cessationists deny

They may but I don't.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

They may but I don't.

Friend I am very involved in praying for healing and seeing God do amazing work but agree with the poster on that point without being a cessationist.

My brother, I am not accusing you of being a cessationist. I'm really not even accusing that poster of being one. I am merely saying that the content of what they shared is something a cessationist would say. I can't think of more than a couple of Charismatics that I've ever known who referred to healing as happening at the day of redemption. Maybe it's just a given, not something that occupies our time or thought process. Healing in circles I've interacted with has always been referred to in the present day. All I was saying is they can probably word their argument a bit better if they don't want to appear as such. Even their reply to my initial comment was for me to just go back and read their last response. The last response being that healing is realized on the day of redemption. Why wait until I die to be healed? Jesus didn't tell people that. The Apostles didn't. The very Apostle that wrote the scriptures that person posted saw unusual miracles and healings take place through his own hands.

So again, no offense intended, I wasn't calling you or them a cessationist, only that the argument that they presented is very much so.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My brother, I am not accusing you of being a cessationist. I'm really not even accusing that poster of being one. I am merely saying that the content of what they shared is something a cessationist would say. I can't think of more than a couple of Charismatics that I've ever known who referred to healing as happening at the day of redemption. Maybe it's just a given, not something that occupies our time or thought process. Healing in circles I've interacted with has always been referred to in the present day. All I was saying is they can probably word their argument a bit better if they don't want to appear as such. Even their reply to my initial comment was for me to just go back and read their last response. The last response being that healing is realized on the day of redemption. Why wait until I die to be healed? Jesus didn't tell people that. The Apostles didn't. The very Apostle that wrote the scriptures that person posted saw unusual miracles and healings take place through his own hands.

So again, no offense intended, I wasn't calling you or them a cessationist, only that the argument that they presented is very much so.

Understand... why not ask the poster if he is or not ???

The more I see Him move the more I credit His activities as being the ultimate Grace rather than any Gift I may have. For me He is the focus - in early Acts they prayed "Extend YOUR hand to heal"

I prefer not to claim a gift - that is for others to decide.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Understand... why not ask the poster if he is or not ???

The more I see Him move the more I credit His activities as being the ultimate Grace rather than any Gift I may have. For me He is the focus - in early Acts they prayed "Extend YOUR hand to heal"

I prefer not to claim a gift - that is for others to decide.

These signs WILL FOLLOW those who believe.. we would all be wise to remember that

 

[Carl Emerson]

These signs WILL FOLLOW those who believe.. we would all be wise to remember that

Yes... signs are following because He is getting the Glory - the healing is God centred rather than man centred or gift centred.

This seems to be where we have gone wrong.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Most of the healings I have seen in my life have not been the Holy Spirit-enabled Gifts of Healings. Most have been everyday believers trusting God and His word either by confession or by the prayer of faith. Most of the churches that I have attended simply did not have a body member with that gifting.
Ultimately, I believe the goal is to bring every believer to maturity where we do not require the Holy Spirit-enabled Gifts of Healings, rather, they are mature enough in the Word and in their Faith that they simply remain healthy and be healed if needed. This position is implied in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Aaron112]

rather, they are mature enough in the Word and in their Faith that they simply remain healthy

I've seen in person and in testimonies of families and groups like this, who remain healthy, not just nor only being mature enough in the Word and in their Faith, but their lives were filled with good habits, good diets, clean water (or clean enough), and not things that brought harm nor poison to their area, body , home, work, or living space ...
The world and sickness industry continually tries, and often succeeds, in getting people to 'fall in place' , to get with their ways instead of healthy ways, and the downfall is obvious and seen in greatly increased illness, even plagues...

 

[Guojing]

I believe today, we are in a time of faith and hope. This is the means we are to please God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. So, things such as sickness may be present to test that faith. We need to hold fast to the truth and confession even in the face of outward, contradictory evidence. But that test is between the individual and God. Our faith stance should be that He has healed us. At the end of the "faith chapter" in Heb 11, we see OT believers who believed even tho they never received, even to their deaths. They believed, which in their case was the only evidence of the unseen thing. Faith was the only substance of the thing they hoped for. And despite never having received in the days of their lives, they pleased God. I believe this should be our faith stance regarding healing and, in many cases, prayer. We are to believe that we have received when we pray.
You are correct that in heaven, we will have perfected bodies that have no need of healing. As for today, we are to pray His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are to pray for bodies that are healthy and have no need of healing.
Peace.

As I said to you in another thread, since we believe in the salvation gospel found in in Paul's writing, to me, it makes perfect sense to also stick to the doctrine found in Romans to Philemon regarding healing as well (Romans 11:13).

So if Paul taught us to have the perspective of Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, and Philippians 4:6-7 with regards to sufferings and prayers, and never once mentioned to us Isaiah 53 nor Mark 11:24, I don't get why the obsession Christians have with the last 2 passages. =)

 

[Guojing]

That is 100% cessationism. God provides healing for all people, at all times. Not just when they die

So what do you think Paul meant in that passage? Was he a cessationist as well in your view?

 

[Guojing]

Considering our Salvation is also in the Atonement, would your position be the same with Salvation on demand or on our time table?

Nice, this was the same question I asked of Watchman1 =)

 

[Guojing]

When my mother died of cancer, everyone was told that God doesn't heal people as He once did, but now that she had passed she had her new body. Cessationism sounds really nice, wonderful, and scriptural. But it's really just unbelief wrapped in a nice bow.

When Benie Johnson finally passed away from cancer, haven't you noticed Bill Johnson relied on Philippians 4:6-7 to comfort himself, in the sermon he preached after that event?

Was he showing "unbelief wrapped in a nice bow" to you?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The ultimate and complete healing you are referring to, is given to us when our corrupted bodies are finally redeemed

Correct - but complete healing of a specific ailment can be fully healed by Him meantime.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes... signs are following because He is getting the Glory - the healing is God centred rather than man centred or gift centred.

I absolutely disagree with that.

Jesus did nothing of Himself the whole time He was here, it was The Father that operated through Him for His healing ministry, and that required the gifts of healings to be in use. It is no different for us nowadays. He is our perfect example in everything,.... in every ministry and office.

People and their total reliance upon faith is the problem. In other words, no one is seeking a healing ministry down here, they think they can just pray everything into existence, and that is not how Jesus did things.