The Pope has been cowardly (Matt Walsh interview)

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Love Matt Walsh.
As regards, 'bashing and lashing out at the church' - I has been going on on the RCC, - if you can't be prepared to demand your church condemn it and make themselves transparent for investigation - then you're part of the problem. If it were my church ? - I would demand that it's fully investigated.
If there's nothing happening, then there's nothing to hide.
Can you imagine how furious the Father and Son must be at those people involved ?

I'm not going to speculate about the emotions of the trinity regarding this or any other human activity on earth, I'm not the judge of souls.
That being said, I suspect a lot of folks are jumping to conclusions on the basis of what they're being told in secular media.

Who's a part of the problem you said? I think being naive enough to believe everything written in secular media without think for one minute yourself is as dangerous if not more so.

Of course we have a problem in the church and it's big, but to believe everything is as false as believe in no one.

Protestants thanking God they're not Catholics doesn't sound pious to me in regards to how Christ speaks about this: the pharisee and the tax collector.

 

[Alithis]

He even went into how the Pope is insinuating that people accusing the priests are the ones to blame.

it is not being cowardly ..it is far more insidious then that .
it is very coldly calculated
he is setting up an atmosphere by which the spiritually uneducated masses (who hang off every word he says ) will think that anyone who speaks truth that opposes or exposes or accuses the hierarchy of the rcc .. is "of the devil" .. he is demonizing anyone who exposes ANY TRUTH about him or his hierarchy .
This is not random . its been done before and in times past it led to the horrific executions of any one who spoke against that church .

 

[dzheremi]

To challenge a very long post with a very short one. Have you kept in mind the very real possibility that many of these allegations are nothing but a witchhunt?

Some almost definitely are. Statistically-speaking, it's nearly certain. "Many"? Perhaps. All? Statistically-speaking, that's basically impossible.

As the old saying goes "no smoke without a fire" of course, but the numbers are simply to massive to be true imho.

No smoke without a fire indeed.

Given the possibility that evil people accuse good men of such satanic behavior a bishop cannot sell his priests to Egypt without evidence or confession by the priest himself.

Yes, that's why police get those. That's part of the problem, in the RC case: many of the allegations are decades old and involve accused men who have since died. In these cases it becomes basically impossible to prove exactly what did happen, but this is when looking at patterns of behavior (in the case of a priest, bishop, diocese, etc.) becomes so important, and cover ups such as seem to be coming to light so incredibly damaging.

Shouting "lock them up" is not the way to go.

Again, if they are guilty, they should be locked up.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Some almost definitely are. Statistically-speaking, it's nearly certain. "Many"? Perhaps. All? Statistically-speaking, that's basically impossible.



No smoke without a fire indeed.



Yes, that's why police get those. That's part of the problem, in the RC case: many of the allegations are decades old and involve accused men who have since died. In these cases it becomes basically impossible to prove exactly what did happen, but this is when looking at patterns of behavior (in the case of a priest, bishop, diocese, etc.) becomes so important, and cover ups such as seem to be coming to light so incredibly damaging.



Again, if they are guilty, they should be locked up.

Its purposeless to discuss this any furthermore as I think we're basically saying the same thing here.
What complicates things is the fact that the church herself is a state and a country too. It's not automatically so that she are to hand over her priests to secular authorities outside the Vatican itself.
Any trials should be held in the Vatican not elsewhere.

 

[dzheremi]

Its purposeless to discuss this any furthermore as I think we're basically saying the same thing here.

Yes, except for what follows...

What complicates things is the fact that the church herself is a state and a country too. It's not automatically so that she are to hand over her priests to secular authorities outside the Vatican itself.

If the Vatican is to be its own country (which I am not denying that it is, though it is in some ways very 'uncountry-like'), then we should have right to inquire as to exactly what quality of justice or fairness can be expected in such a closed system, the same as we might in places like Afghanistan, Iran, or North Korea (places where religious and/or political orthodoxies reign supreme). And if it is found to be wanting (which, in due fairness, I don't see how it couldn't be with regard to things like this), then...

Any trials should be held in the Vatican not elsewhere.

...the rightness of this stance ought not be assumed.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Yes, except for what follows...



If the Vatican is to be its own country (which I am not denying that it is, though it is in some ways very 'uncountry-like'), then we should have right to inquire as to exactly what quality of justice or fairness can be expected in such a closed system, the same as we might in places like Afghanistan, Iran, or North Korea (places where religious and/or political orthodoxies reign supreme). And if it is found to be wanting (which, in due fairness, I don't see how it couldn't be with regard to things like this), then...



...the rightness of this stance ought not be assumed.

I didn't say it should be closed did I ?
It should be held in the Vatican under an open trial, the public deserve and has a right to see how this unfolds in court.

 

[dzheremi]

I didn't mean 'closed' in the sense of 'not open to the public'. I wrote 'closed system', much in the same way that show trials, jury nullification, and the like were prominent features in many places in the American South up until very recently when dealing with non-white defendants: when the juries were selected from among the dominant population, and the judge was also from that population, it mattered very little if the trials were open to scrutiny, as their actual outcomes were all but pre-decided by virtue of the makeup of the surrounding society from which they were drawn.

Consider that as a parallel and then think of the demographics of the Vatican and you may see why it could be reasonably referred to as a 'closed system': who would make up the judges, juries, and attorneys? According to what law would they proceed -- RC canon law or otherwise divine law, or the secular law of a modern European country?

These sorts of questions would not need to be asked for trials held outside of the Vatican, while those held within Vatican City (state) would obviously be much more prone to being manipulated. And that's the last thing the RCC needs: avoiding a cover up by instituting a different kind of cover up, this time with a sheen of faux-legality due to the quirk of historical law that made Vatican City its own country in the first place.

 

[paul1149]

What complicates things is the fact that the church herself is a state and a country too. It's not automatically so that she are to hand over her priests to secular authorities outside the Vatican itself.
Any trials should be held in the Vatican not elsewhere.

That is not how it works. If you commit a crime in the US, you are tried here. That is what happened to the Guatamalan? murderer of Kate Steinle in San Francisco, for instance. You are subject to the laws of the nation in which you are, unless you have diplomatic immunity.

 

[Nige55]

I'm not going to speculate about the emotions of the trinity regarding this or any other human activity on earth, I'm not the judge of souls.

Wow. Are you telling me that you can't commit to saying that God might just be a little angry about children being molested and sodomised by people who in the eyes of those children are there to represent God ? Unbelievable !
Maybe go look up the 'millstone' reference in scripture.


[QUOTE Who's a part of the problem you said? I think being naive enough to believe everything written in secular media without think for one minute yourself is as dangerous if not more so.[/QUOTE]

Believe everything in secular media ? Of course not. But you can't claim there's not an alarming epidemic that has been proven and brought to light, usually using the RCC's own records.


[QUOTE Protestants thanking God they're not Catholics doesn't sound pious to me in regards to how Christ speaks about this: the pharisee and the tax collector.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that fully.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My biggest worry about all of this is that it allows the reactionary atheists to paint all Christians with the brush of sin caused by the Catholic cover-up.

Alleged cover up.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Wow. Are you telling me that you can't commit to saying that God might just be a little angry about children being molested and sodomised by people who in the eyes of those children are there to represent God ? Unbelievable !
Maybe go look up the 'millstone' reference in scripture.


[QUOTE Who's a part of the problem you said? I think being naive enough to believe everything written in secular media without think for one minute yourself is as dangerous if not more so.

Believe everything in secular media ? Of course not. But you can't claim there's not an alarming epidemic that has been proven and brought to light, usually using the RCC's own records.


[QUOTE Protestants thanking God they're not Catholics doesn't sound pious to me in regards to how Christ speaks about this: the pharisee and the tax collector.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that fully.[/QUOTE]

Its nothing to go "WOW" over, I just dont speculate in how God feels. This is a possible fallpit which is why I leave it alone.

Gods feelings is a part of God transcendent and I prefer to discuss God immanent.

 

[Nige55]

Its nothing to go "WOW" over, I just dont speculate in how God feels. This is a possible fallpit which is why I leave it alone.

Gods feelings is a part of God transcendent and I prefer to discuss God immanent.

OK, thanks. I'm still in 'wow' reaction however. I just find it bizarre as we have evidence of God's righteous anger and wrath, and it's important for us to be mindful of it in order to drive us away from falling into what displeases him. That, in part is why it's important that we do know his feelings.

We know he weeps in certain circumstances, the bible is very forward in expressing God's broad emotions.
Given how clearly we're told that precious, innocent children are a blessing from him, and that sexual abuse comes from the enemy (perversion & distortion) - how can you NOT think that God would have feelings about this when he so clearly expressed emotions throughout the bible ?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

OK, thanks. I'm still in 'wow' reaction however. I just find it bizarre as we have evidence of God's righteous anger and wrath, and it's important for us to be mindful of it in order to drive us away from falling into what displeases him. That, in part is why it's important that we do know his feelings.

We know he weeps in certain circumstances, the bible is very forward in expressing God's broad emotions.
Given how clearly we're told that precious, innocent children are a blessing from him, and that sexual abuse comes from the enemy (perversion & distortion) - how can you NOT think that God would have feelings about this when he so clearly expressed emotions throughout the bible ?

Its the speculation in general I'm against.
We are to react according to the moral law given to us through the bible and by nature law and both those sources teaches us that molestation of children is evil.

Just to be clear it's out of fear of God I'm reluctant to speculate in his being and his feelings not because I'd like to trivialize the gravity of abuses and such.

 

[CGL1023]

He even went into how the Pope is insinuating that people accusing the priests are the ones to blame.

I am saddened about the the whole mess with the many accused clergy and the Pope's responses. The situation seems not to improve because there are multiple reports daily among the US news sources.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

To challenge a very long post with a very short one. Have you kept in mind the very real possibility that many of these allegations are nothing but a witchhunt?
As the old saying goes "no smoke without a fire" of course, but the numbers are simply to massive to be true imho.

Given the possibility that evil people accuse good men of such satanic behavior a bishop cannot sell his priests to Egypt without evidence or confession by the priest himself.

I'm not diminishing the gravity and seriousness of this, but I'm just trying to shed some light on the complexity of this.

Shouting "lock them up" is not the way to go.

Many of the allegations against priests are nothing but a witchhunt? Are you kidding me?

Number of Priests Accused of Sexually Abusing Children As Reported by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Compiled by BishopAccountability.org from reports commissioned by the USCCB, Updated April 11, 2011

This is just what the RCC will admit, and only for the United States.

So you can imagine, with the systemic coverup and moving molesters to new crops of victims over decades, how much is simply excised from public scrutiny.

"As of May 30, 2017, the USCCB has counted 18,565 victims who are known to the bishops in the period 1950 through June 30, 2016. Many more survivors have yet to come forward. In 1993, the late Fr. Andrew Greeley estimated that 2,500 priests (fewer than half the USCCB's current total) might have molested "well in excess of 100,000" children in the United States."


And worldwide:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/29/world/timeline-catholic-church-sexual-abuse-scandals/index.html

Huge numbers of cases have come forth in Australia, Dominican Republic, The Netherlands, Austria, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, Ireland, and Brazil. Each molester seems to have dozens or even hundreds of victims. So you do the math.

ALL of these people - or "many" as you say - are simply making it up?

 

[chevyontheriver]

ALL of these people - or "many" as you say - are simply making it up?

Nobody is saying that the majority of these cases are made up. But there are some which are made up, or mistaken identity, or misremembering. It happens. Fr. Gordon McRae is in prison now for abuse he didn't do. He's not the only one falsely accused. Most accusations have substance behind them. Some accusations are never even made for one reason or another. But some accusations are simply bogus. That's why we have trials, to get to the truth of accusations.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah. I want to be clear here (as the post in question was originally in response to me) that I do not believe that all accusations are by their very nature true, and I do believe that priests who are accused deserve a fair trial, same as anyone.

It is the extremes on either end -- those that say no molestation or very little has taken place, and those who say that Catholic priests are all predators -- that are wrong. Clearly there is a huge problem here and many people do need to be investigated and some do need to go to jail. That does not mean, in itself, that every accusation is therefore true. (At the same time, I am unwilling to give the RCC as an institution the benefit of the doubt with regard to its handling of the problem, due to its seemingly endless and recurring nature which suggests that frankly they have not taken the steps necessary to definitively deal with the problem, and are still in "PR mode", which Pope Francis himself is clearly not so good at. But this is a slightly different question than looking at any individual case.)

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Nobody is saying that the majority of these cases are made up. But there are some which are made up, or mistaken identity, or misremembering. It happens. Fr. Gordon McRae is in prison now for abuse he didn't do. He's not the only one falsely accused. Most accusations have substance behind them. Some accusations are never even made for one reason or another. But some accusations are simply bogus. That's why we have trials, to get to the truth of accusations.

It's illogical and interesting that this one priest went directly to prison upon one young man's accusation, but many, many others were simply moved around to new crops of victims and their victims disbelieved. Why? Why did this priest get nailed and others did not? I would like to know. The fact that this victim is the least credible type of victim with both substance abuse and a criminal past also is suspicious. http://media.wix.com/ugd/94def6_f5c95a14840948b0a58abf30c8e84756.pdf

And not buying that the RCC routinely paid off young men who made accusations for no reason, as the document begins.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Nobody is saying that the majority of these cases are made up. But there are some which are made up, or mistaken identity, or misremembering. It happens. Fr. Gordon McRae is in prison now for abuse he didn't do. He's not the only one falsely accused. Most accusations have substance behind them. Some accusations are never even made for one reason or another. But some accusations are simply bogus. That's why we have trials, to get to the truth of accusations.

But we don't have trials. The Vatican retains control and is its own legal entity. There are no public trials. That is why this case is so spectacularly anomalous.


Sex Abuse and the Catholic Church: Why Is It Still a Story?

 

[chevyontheriver]

It's illogical and interesting that this one priest went directly to prison upon one young man's accusation, but many, many others were simply moved around to new crops of victims and their victims disbelieved. Why? Why did this priest get nailed and others did not? I would like to know. The fact that this victim is the least credible type of victim with both substance abuse and a criminal past also is suspicious. http://media.wix.com/ugd/94def6_f5c95a14840948b0a58abf30c8e84756.pdf

And not buying that the RCC routinely paid off young men who made accusations for no reason, as the document begins.

Fr. McRae was arrested by police and charged by the government, tried in court, offered a plea deal which he rejected, convicted, and the book was thrown against him. He has exhausted, as far as I know, all avenues of appeal, and will likely die in prison. He didn't go 'directly' to prison, but was tried and convicted in government court.

This priest got nailed because the circumstantial evidence convinced a jury. Because a prosecutor took on the case. Because they thought the 'victim' was credible.

Not all cases go to criminal trial. Some because the bishop covered them up and the government never found out. Some because of a statute of limitations. Some because the perpetrator is already dead. Some because government prosecutors didn't have much of a case. Maybe other reasons. It's a mixed bag. More should go to trial, but then not every case is good enough to go to trial. And you can't very well try a person who is already dead. The Church can run their own canon law trial independently of the government and remove someone even if the government does not convict them.