The politics of shooters ... since it always gets politicized

[NightHawkeye]

Sadly, the mainstream media and Democrats seem to politicize every shooting. They respond with the predictable gun control narrative and assail the 'right' and Republicans if there is any possible connection to be found, sometimes even if there's not.

Of the two shooters this past weekend, one was a hard-core 'leftist' and the other left behind a manifesto which can best be described as leftist in regard to concern for the earth, environment and resources but he also juxtaposed immigration issues into the mix.

The reality is that both shooters, to be kind, were mentally ill and confused about many things. Most particularly, they seemed to have a problem making good decisions. Both shooters latched onto divisive politics, no doubt because in doing so they felt some sort of tangible emotional connection. Sad, really. It seems worth keeping in mind that both shooters this weekend were deranged and disconnected from reality. They made really bad choices.

To a greater or lesser extent the choosing between life and death is a problem mankind has faced for millennia, even before Moses set out the choice clearly in Deuteronomy:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.​

 

[dogs4thewin]

I have yet to figure out why the politics of the shooters matter.

 

[Dave-W]

I have yet to figure out why the politics of the shooters matter.

It is a vain hope that by changing the political landscape these things might be decreased or eliminated.

 

[dogs4thewin]

It is a vain hope that by changing the political landscape these things might be decreased or eliminated.

You would think people would figure out that not everyone who holds to a particular religion, party or any other group are all the same.

 

[greenguzzi]

I live in Australia. We have gun control. We have gun control because a raving lunatic got hold of a gun. We now have gun control because an extreme right wing politician thought we should have gun control.
That right wing politician (John Howard) did a first-class, world-class brilliant job of getting rid of guns, and introducing a pretty decent gun control policy into our great Southern land.

In Australia we now have more guns in public hands than we did at the time of the massacre. But those guns are owned by people who love and respect guns. (As do I.)

Gun control isn't about stopping folk owning guns. It's about controlling gun ownership.
I hate a lot of what our John Howard represents, but he will always be a hero to me.
I'm the most left wing person I know. But I have an enduring respect for John Howard, because of his sensible stance on guns.

 

[bèlla]

The unstable person who fires randomly upon strangers is more influenced by madness than politics. That adds to the heap of issues he already had.

 

[devin553344]

People that kill others aren't crazy, their evil.

 

[Halbhh]

I live in Australia. We have gun control. We have gun control because a raving lunatic got hold of a gun. We now have gun control because an extreme right wing politician thought we should have gun control.
That right wing politician (John Howard) did a first-class, world-class brilliant job of getting rid of guns, and introducing a pretty decent gun control policy into our great Southern land.

In Australia we now have more guns in public hands than we did at the time of the massacre. But those guns are owned by people who love and respect guns. (As do I.)

Gun control isn't about stopping folk owning guns. It's about controlling gun ownership.
I hate a lot of what our John Howard represents, but he will always be a hero to me.
I'm the most left wing person I know. But I have an enduring respect for John Howard, because of his sensible stance on guns.

^^^
What a very helpful post!

As someone that grew up with guns, shooting already at age 6, and we had so many that there were even some old ones rusting in a barn, and more than we could store in our large gun cabinet, etc., I wonder at all the people that somehow think guns should not be well-regulated, as our 2nd Amendment specifies --

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
-- 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution

Instead of the NRA position, I strongly support the 2nd Amendment position: gun ownership should be well-regulated.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Instead of the NRA position, I strongly support the 2nd Amendment position: gun ownership should be well-regulated.

Let's look at how that might work ...
Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings

All men between the ages of 18 and 34 deemed "fit for service" are given a pistol or a rifle and trained.

After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons, but they have to get a permit for them.
...
Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exempt from the permit requirement.
...
People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.

The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.​

 

[☦Marius☦]

People that kill others aren't crazy, their evil.

That's not necessarily a fair statement. If the person is autistic as many of these people are and immersed in violence, or gets obbsesed with racial ideology then it's more then just your average Joe deciding to kill a bunch of people.

The main problem is writing these men off as evil and crazy without looking at the common themes they are all writing about. Why do so many of these young men feel disenfranchised? Why is the mental health rate among young white men so poor right now? What reasonable decisions can be done to help? I see marches against whiteness, I see people advocating for putting incels in jail or worse. Yet these are not solutions to the source of the problems creating these individuals in the first place.

 

[eleos1954]

That's not necessarily a fair statement. If the person is autistic as many of these people are and immersed in violence, or gets obbsesed with racial ideology then it's more then just your average Joe deciding to kill a bunch of people.

The main problem is writing these men off as evil and crazy without looking at the common themes they are all writing about. Why do so many of these young men feel disenfranchised? Why is the mental health rate among young white men so poor right now? What reasonable decisions can be done to help? I see marches against whiteness, I see people advocating for putting incels in jail or worse. Yet these are not solutions to the source of the problems creating these individuals in the first place.

Both exist ... some are legitimately mentally ill, some are just plain evil.

 

[devin553344]

That's not necessarily a fair statement. If the person is autistic as many of these people are and immersed in violence, or gets obbsesed with racial ideology then it's more then just your average Joe deciding to kill a bunch of people.

The main problem is writing these men off as evil and crazy without looking at the common themes they are all writing about. Why do so many of these young men feel disenfranchised? Why is the mental health rate among young white men so poor right now? What reasonable decisions can be done to help? I see marches against whiteness, I see people advocating for putting incels in jail or worse. Yet these are not solutions to the source of the problems creating these individuals in the first place.

That's an unfair statement. Crazy people aren't evil, there are more murders that are sane. I don't find validity in your statement. In fact most murders are related to gangs. Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems

 

[NightHawkeye]

Crazy people aren't evil ...

Some are, some aren't.

In fact most murders are related to gangs.

A great point. Far more people seem to have died this weekend from gang violence than mass shootings. Gang shootings tend to be one or two at a time though so not as dramatic ... and don't carry much political clout.

 

[devin553344]

Some are, some aren't.

That logic can be applied to sane people too. There is a good page on mental health and crime here:Violence & mental health

More likely mentally ill people are victims of abuse rather than the abuser: "People with mental illness are more likely to be victimized than the general population—on average 11.8 times more often for violent crimes": Victimization of People with Mental Illness | Here to Help

 

[NightHawkeye]

That logic can be applied to sane people too. There is a good page on mental health and crime here:Violence & mental health

More likely mentally ill people are victims of abuse rather than the abuser: "People with mental illness are more likely to be victimized than the general population—on average 11.8 times more often for violent crimes": Victimization of People with Mental Illness | Here to Help

Hi Devin,

The only real point I wanted to make is that mental illness is not automatically an excuse for doing bad things. About 50 years ago mental illness (insanity) was the go-to plea of murderers in this country. That excuse worked for some number of years before juries caught on and realized that it was all too often just an excuse to cover up for a well thought out plan.

 

[essentialsaltes]

May I still have some gun control please?

 

[Skewpoint]

May I still have some gun control please?

Hello, you've reached the number for Sandy Hook Elementary. The answer to your question is "No." Have a nice day.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Both exist ... some are legitimately mentally ill, some are just plain evil.

That's an unfair statement. Crazy people aren't evil, there are more murders that are sane. I don't find validity in your statement. In fact most murders are related to gangs. Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems

I literally said IF the person is autistic or mentally ill. If doesn't mean all. We are talking about a specific kind of murdered though are we not?

 

[eleos1954]

I literally said IF the person is autistic or mentally ill. If doesn't mean all. We are talking about a specific kind of murdered though are we not?

who knows what really goes on in the mind ??? Sometimes people just "snap" too. Impossible to predict I think ... I know several people with autism and can't imagine any of them committing murder.

It's a sticky wicket.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not necessarily a fair statement. If the person is autistic as many of these people are and immersed in violence, or gets obbsesed with racial ideology then it's more then just your average Joe deciding to kill a bunch of people.

The main problem is writing these men off as evil and crazy without looking at the common themes they are all writing about. Why do so many of these young men feel disenfranchised? Why is the mental health rate among young white men so poor right now? What reasonable decisions can be done to help? I see marches against whiteness, I see people advocating for putting incels in jail or worse. Yet these are not solutions to the source of the problems creating these individuals in the first place.

Well, what are their ages, what were the familial situations in place during their formative years, and what were the differences in those familial situations compared to earlier generations?

I was watching a forum of young black women on YouTube about black men that concluded black men were worthless (actually "worthless" wasn't the term they used, but this is family forum).

Then I thought: How did it come to happen that young black men are worthless? Who taught those young black men to be worthless?

Well, statistically 70% of them were raised in homes without fathers. Even if a father attempted to be involved, that's still much less involvement time than a boy spends attempting to learn manhood.

And nearly 100% of them were raised with only female influences in school.

So who taught them to be worthless? They were mostly around women all their lives, so what did those women teach them about women that makes them worthless for women?

And why weren't earlier generations of black men worthless?