The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

YahuahSaves · Jan 16, 2023

Saint Steven said:
That's informative, thanks.

In an attempt to understand Mark 9:49, we need to consider the context.
Especially where that verse lands in the passage. Sandwiched between vs 48 and 50 as its own paragraph really.
As I read it, vs 50 is saying, "Speaking of salt..."
Verse 49 seems much more connected to verse 48, "... and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 9:42-50 NIV
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [b] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[c]

49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

Speaking again of hell... I found the historical meaning Jesus was using by doing a search. (Not the original article I read) but it seems the believer sways your way so you might get something out of it.

"The Greek word which is translated here as hell is actually Gehenna (γέεννα). Gehenna is a real place which you can visit until today. You can even check it out in Google Maps. Gehenna has a rich history in the Old Testament (OT). The only way to correctly understand the words of Jesus is by reviewing what the OT says about Gehenna.

Gehenna is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom. For Jews Gehenna/Hinnom was associated with sin and judgement because it was the place where King Ahaz (2 Ch 28:3) and King Manasseh (2 Ch 33:6) burned their own sons as a sacrifice for Moloch."

From: The meaning of Gehenna in the teachings of Jesus

Saint Steven · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Speaking again of hell...

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

Clare73 · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Huh? ..

Revelation 20:1-10

But there is nothing there about Satan being "chained" for eternity.

And does agreeing that God is just and right mean that he wants God's will to be done (Mt 6:10), or is it all the more reason he does not want to be subject to God, for he prefers evil to good?

Clare73 · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
I was looking for something else for another thread and came upon this, which adds another layer to angels. We know they cannot die, or else God would not have to chain the devil for eternity. They're the OG "Sons of God", according to what I've heard about the book of Enoch (yet to read it fully though). So if they never die, they must have been created from God...

Keeping in mind that "creation" means from nothing, while "made" means from something.

YahuahSaves said:
Luke 20:34-36

34 Jesus replied, “Marriage is for people here on earth. 35 But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36 And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

Mark Quayle · Jan 16, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Of course they do! How they do other? I'm fail to see how this is heart-submission for the lost and the demons. He has rejected them.

Saint Steven said:
Sounds like the Calvinism talking.

What does Jesus teach us about our relationship with our enemies?
We are to love them. --- This is godly behavior.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48 NIV

What does this tell us that God will do with his own enemies? Incinerate them?
Only if he operates at a lower standard than he holds us to.

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? ..." - Matthew 5:46 NIV

But see, there you go with your, "God doesn't do different than whatever he tells us to do." You keep making as though God is like us, operating on our level or something. We are his creatures. Would you say that he elevates us here in this life to his position as ruler of the universe?

When God saves does he not do so to those who are at enmity with him? Yet he does not do so with all; even in your universalist POV (as I understand it) he doesn't do so with all, initially, but only after their cleansing in the Lake of Fire. There is a difference between his love for one and his love for another.

Nevertheless, how is what you are saying about love relevant to the question of whether or not their bowing the knee and confessing that Jesus is Lord, indicative of heart-submission to God?

Mark Quayle · Jan 16, 2023

Clare73 said:
But there is nothing there about Satan being "chained" for eternity.

And does agreeing that God is just and right mean that he wants God's will to be done (Mt 6:10), or is it all the more reason he does not want to be subject to God, for he prefers evil to good?

Something very satisfying to me about the idea of the Devil, gnashing his teeth in anger, and meeting his doom in anguish, terror, despair and all the things to which he had tried to subject humanity.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

Ge:1 was created as an inheritance for the perfected Son of God and the Holy Spirit.

Psalms:2:7-9:
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son;
this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Saint Steven · Jan 16, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
But see, there you go with your, "God doesn't do different than whatever he tells us to do." You keep making as though God is like us, operating on our level or something. We are his creatures. Would you say that he elevates us here in this life to his position as ruler of the universe?

Perhaps you misunderstand my point there.
What I am saying is that it makes no sense for God to operate at at subhuman level of character and morals/ethics.
He gave us a conscience to know right from wrong. Would he do anything to violate that?

Mark Quayle said:
When God saves does he not do so to those who are at enmity with him? Yet he does not do so with all; even in your universalist POV (as I understand it) he doesn't do so with all, initially, but only after their cleansing in the Lake of Fire. There is a difference between his love for one and his love for another.

Saves those at enmity with him? Of course.
In UR we believe everyone, and all are at enmity with him, are already saved.
He does have his Elect. But I don't believe that everyone else was predestined to be incinerated.

Mark Quayle said:
Nevertheless, how is what you are saying about love relevant to the question of whether or not their bowing the knee and confessing that Jesus is Lord, indicative of heart-submission to God?

This is the ultimate triumph of God over sin. That all will be reconciled. A whole age will be dedicated to this.
Put yourself in a demon's shoes. If God offered you forgiveness and restoration, would you opt for an eternity in hell instead?
This won't require much of a sales job. - LOL

YahuahSaves · Jan 16, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

Yes, exactly my point. It's symbolic.

Mark Quayle · Jan 16, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Perhaps you misunderstand my point there.
What I am saying is that it makes no sense for God to operate at at subhuman level of character and morals/ethics.
He gave us a conscience to know right from wrong. Would he do anything to violate that?

By definition he is not subhuman regardless of how anyone judges it. You can't decide what God does or does not do based on your notion of love.

Saint Steven said:
Saves those at enmity with him? Of course.
In UR we believe everyone, and all are at enmity with him, are already saved.
He does have his Elect. But I don't believe that everyone else was predestined to be incinerated.
This is the ultimate triumph of God over sin. That all will be reconciled. A whole age will be dedicated to this.
Put yourself in a demon's shoes. If God offered you forgiveness and restoration, would you opt for an eternity in hell instead?
This won't require much of a sales job. - LOL

I thought you were of the UR line that God cleanses them by the LOF. In other words, that there are some raised to life eternal, and some to the LOF, subsequent to which they are also taken to be with him forever. The bowing of the knee and confession that he is Lord coming before their ejection into the fire. I don't think I've seen anywhere that God offers them forgiveness and restoration to their former state.

YahuahSaves · Jan 16, 2023

Clare73 said:
But there is nothing there about Satan being "chained" for eternity.

And does agreeing that God is just and right mean that he wants God's will to be done (Mt 6:10), or is it all the more reason he does not want to be subject to God, for he prefers evil to good?

Why would he be chained and then released and then not chained again? Unless you're suggesting he is destroyed like human souls?

Jude 6

6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

Revelation 20:1-3
The Thousand Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit[a] and a heavy chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

Psalms:55:23:
But thou,
O God,
shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction:
bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days;
but I will trust in thee.

Isa:14:15:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.

Jon:2:5-7:
The waters compassed me about,
even to the soul:
the depth closed me round about,
the weeds were wrapped about my head.
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;
the earth with her bars was about me for ever:
yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption,
O LORD my God.
When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD:
and my prayer came in unto thee,
into thine holy temple.

There are probably a few more after this last one:
Isa:65:12-16:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

'Great tribulation' in the NT is the same place, Re:7 is about after the punishment is over.

YahuahSaves · Jan 16, 2023

Clare73 said:
Keeping in mind that "creation" means from nothing, while "made" means from something.

Yes...and what could that be? It seems to me like angels never die.

YahuahSaves said:
And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels.

Saint Steven · Jan 16, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
By definition he is not subhuman regardless of how anyone judges it. You can't decide what God does or does not do based on your notion of love.

I agree that God is not subhuman. But we know what that means. Less than human. A tyrant is subhuman.
Some, by definition, declare God subhuman. We are appalled by examples in human history.
But give God carte blanche? (to be subhuman)

Mark Quayle said:
I thought you were of the UR line that God cleanses them by the LOF. In other words, that there are some raised to life eternal, and some to the LOF, subsequent to which they are also taken to be with him forever.

I usually don't refer to it as the LOF. We will all be salted with fire. Believer and unbeliever alike. (restoration)

Mark Quayle said:
The bowing of the knee and confession that he is Lord coming before their ejection into the fire. I don't think I've seen anywhere that God offers them forgiveness and restoration to their former state.

I think the confession will come after the fire. They will then be of the state of mind to mean it then. (restored)

Clare73 · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Why would he be chained and then released and then not chained again? Unless you're suggesting he is destroyed like human souls?

Because time is no more, there is no one available to him to devour.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 16, 2023

I don’t think he has to prove a point because who would he prove it to? But I think his plan was to have a creation that would willingly love and have interactive relationship with him . He could of created things that had to worship him but the deepest love is out of choice and the best way to do that is for his creation to be able to experience what it is like to live in a world that has rejected Yahwehs rule for there own rule. So now for thousands of years this earth has been under a curse and things have been really messed up by not living in Yahwehs love. But He has a plan to redeem the world and take all the curse into himself and in the end of all things, all of creation will experience life outside of Yahwehs perfect love and will never want to go back and then 1 Cor 15 God will be all in all and Yahweh will have his desire that his creation will all choose him and his plan is complete, for the rest of the ages his whole creation will walk in a loving relationship with him.

Clare73 · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Yes...and what could that be? It seems to me like angels never die.

God creates from nothing immortal spirits, incuding angels (and those which become demons) as well as the immortal spirits of humans, just as he created matter from nothing.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

YahuahSaves said:
Why would he be chained and then released and then not chained again? Unless you're suggesting he is destroyed like human souls?

It seems like God cannot throw you into the lake of fire (execution) unless you have been in the Pit for 1 day or longer. All fallen angels in Ge:6 were put into that pit during the flood. All except Satan, he put in a few appearances between Ge:3 and Re:20. The beast from the Pit and the False Prophet were in earth during Ge:6 era, they have been in the Pit for longer than 1 day. When they are released and doing what they did before the flood, Jesus is able to send them to the lake. Satan was put into the Pit. The chain could be about the 5th trump, where Satan (the falling mountain) has a key that allows him to let the beast out. The False Prophets is the false Messiah so he would appear to be the commander of the 200M angelic horsemen.
Prophecy:
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Historical event:
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

M't:25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me,
ye cursed,
into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jude:1:5-6:
I will therefore put you in remembrance,
though ye once knew this,
how that the Lord,
having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

Isa:14:10:
All they shall speak and say unto thee,
Art thou also become weak as we?
art thou become like unto us?
Isa:14:14:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
Isa:14:19:
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit;
as a carcase trodden under feet.

I hope those are enough to show the reason Jesus doesn't throw him into the fire, with the two He does send there.

Clare73 · Jan 16, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
I don’t think he has to prove a point because who would he prove it to? But I think his plan was to have a creation that would willingly love and have interactive relationship with him . He could of created

He could've (could have) created.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 16, 2023

keras said:
Why we are here:

Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer. [the light bearer]

It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.

God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.

What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.

God may have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world, which does give humans the choice between good and evil.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry. So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land.

Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight. In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.

Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross. He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer by rising to life again.

Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognise the Messiah, but Righteous Israel – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all wicked peoples, Jer. 12:14, and His Christian people will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:1, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +

WE Christians are the Witnesses for God, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27

Ref: logostelos.info

I don’t understand how God could have a dilemma it’s not like he didn’t know what was going to happen.

The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

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