The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

YahuahSaves

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I know this post is long, was trying to be as thorough as possible, but there seems to be layers to this and it's probably better to allow others to add to the discussion.

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

What does it mean that God is omniscient?

"Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing."

Hebrews 4:13

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide from me in a secret place?
Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?”
says the Lord.

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the things I have done in the past.
For I alone am God!
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 Only I can tell you the future
before it even happens.
Everything I plan will come to pass,
for I do whatever I wish.

Before God created everything (and us) he already had a plan on how he would ultimately display his glory:

1 Peter 1:19-20

19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.[a]

God (the Father) created the world through the Son (the lamb/the word/Jesus Christ):

Colossians 1:16-17

16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.


Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)


God created human beings in his image to reign over creation on the Earth:

Genesis 1:26-28

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings[c] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)

Genesis 3:1-5
The Man and Woman Sin

3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

An example here that anyone hiding from God, and him not "knowing" what happened is impossible, as he is omniscient:

Genesis 3:8-11

8 When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man[a] and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11 “Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?

In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:

Job 1:6-12
Job’s First Test

6 One day the members of the heavenly court[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 “Where have you come from?” the Lord asked Satan.

Satan answered the Lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”

8 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.


Zechariah 3:1-2
Cleansing for the High Priest

3 Then the angel showed me Jeshua[a] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel’s right hand, making accusations against Jeshua. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “I, the Lord, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire.”

So, when was the adversary cast to earth?

How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

I'm thinking by the time he knew about Jesus:

Revelation 12:13

13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

John 17:1-5
The Prayer of Jesus

17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

What is God's "glory"?

"In Exodus 16:7 we read "and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD" (RSV). What is the "glory" of YHWH? First we must recognize that the "glory" is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word "glory" is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of Elohiym (God) is paralleled with his "shield" and in Job 29:20, Job's kavod is paralleled with his "bow." In Psalm 24:8 we read "who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle." The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. The meaning "armament" fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod, which is "heavy," and armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will "see" the "armament" of YHWH, the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians." SOURCE

So essentially, we're part of a spiritual battle:

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we[a] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.

2 Corinthians 3:18

18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
 

Clare73

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I know this post is long, was trying to be as thorough as possible, but there seems to be layers to this and it's probably better to allow others to add to the discussion.

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

I agree. . .

However, I find in Scripture that it is all God's specific design, for the pleasure (Rev 4:11) of showing forth the glory of his goodness, through the glory of his Son (Php 2:11; Eph 3:10, Eph 1:20-23; 1Co 15:24-28; Col 1:16-20; 1Co 1:18-20), to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms (1 Co 11:10; Eph 3:8-11, Eph 2:6-7, Eph 6:12),

To that end, I see God as decreeing a controversy (cosmic fight) with Satan in which
1) God's goodness, love, mercy, etc. will be glorified through the church (Eph 3:8-11) by the Son's redemption of her from Satan's work in her condemnation (Ro 5:18),
she being the glorious bride being prepared by the Father for his Son in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
2) while his justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. will be glorified through Satan by overcoming him in such a way that
he will no longer contest (Job 1:9-11, Zec 3:1-2, Rev 12:10), but will be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Ro 3:4, Php 2:10-11).

God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).
 
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YahuahSaves

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However, my understanding of Scripture that it is all God's design, for the pleasure (Rev 4:11) of showing forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son (Php 2:11; Eph 3:10, Eph 1:20-23; 1Co 15:24-28; Col 1:16-20; 1Co 1:18-20).
Yes! The epic battle raging since the beginning of time and the ultimate victory of Good triumphing over evil.. I think the bible is probably where a majority of superhero stories originated. :oldthumbsup:

his justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. will be glorified through Satan by overcoming him in such a way that
he will no longer contest (Job 1:9-11, Zec 3:1-2, Rev 12:10), but will be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Ro 3:4, Php 2:10-11).
Absolutely! :amen:

God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).
His Goodness will be undeniable :bow:

God's goodness, love, mercy, etc. will be glorified through the church (Eph 3:8-11), the bride being prepared by the Father for his Son
in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
This^ is the part of the plan I wanted to elaborate on (humankind), but I wasn't sure how others (or staff) would take it. It's under the controversial theology forum, so I hope my thread doesn't get removed for speaking about spiritual warfare... I came across a passage last night (I've read the bible), but I have only been picking up on certain things as time goes on. The scripture about false teachers I always thought was about the church teaching worldly things in place of spiritual things (I can't elaborate here because of a potential warning), so when I read this again I understood that a large majority of the battle is with this aspect of the church and is potentially leading people to not take the reality of the spiritual realm seriously.

Jude 8-11

8 In the same way, these people—who claim authority from their dreams—live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings.[a] 9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.) 10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. 11 What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion.
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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This is a great post and I don't have much to add but I do have a couple of points that touch on two of yours.
Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)
I think Ezekiel 28:11-19 sheds some light on this specifically.
So, when was the adversary cast to earth?
I actually made a thread on this a while ago, it wasn't anything much but when I was reading I noticed a possible link between Genesis 3:14 & Job 1:7 (Job is the oldest book in the Bible). Here were some quotes from that thread:
I've tried looking online but I'm unable to find anything. In Genesis 3:14 you have God cursing the serpent to crawl on the earth and in Job 1:7 you have God asking the Satan "From where have you come?" and then Satan responding "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."

If there's no link then that's fine but I was just curious and was wondering if there's a congruence here. We know that the terminology of referring to the spiritual creature Satan as the serpent is ok or rather that the identity of the cursed serpent in the Genesis 3 & more specifically Genesis 3:15 is that spiritual creature, as it's used in Revelation 20:2 & Romans 16:20.

God bless :).
Rev 12 says Satan is the "serpent of old" -- so then the serpent in Gen 3 is either Satan taking on that form or using a serpent as a medium.


The link - in Job 1:7 is related to Rev 12 Satan was cast down to Earth and 2 Cor 4:4 Satan is the "God of this world'. In Matt 4 where Satan tempts Christ (also in Luke 4 as I recall) Satan says this World was given to him... and of course that happens when Adam chooses Satan over God.
I know this specific detail is minor in contrast to the whole post but I thought it couldn't hurt :p.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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I know this post is long, was trying to be as thorough as possible, but there seems to be layers to this and it's probably better to allow others to add to the discussion.

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

What does it mean that God is omniscient?

"Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing."

Hebrews 4:13

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide from me in a secret place?
Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?”
says the Lord.

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the things I have done in the past.
For I alone am God!
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 Only I can tell you the future
before it even happens.
Everything I plan will come to pass,
for I do whatever I wish.

Before God created everything (and us) he already had a plan on how he would ultimately display his glory:

1 Peter 1:19-20

19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.[a]

God (the Father) created the world through the Son (the lamb/the word/Jesus Christ):

Colossians 1:16-17

16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.


Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)


God created human beings in his image to reign over creation on the Earth:

Genesis 1:26-28

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings[c] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)

Genesis 3:1-5
The Man and Woman Sin

3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

An example here that anyone hiding from God, and him not "knowing" what happened is impossible, as he is omniscient:

Genesis 3:8-11

8 When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man[a] and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11 “Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?

In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:

Job 1:6-12
Job’s First Test

6 One day the members of the heavenly court[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 “Where have you come from?” the Lord asked Satan.

Satan answered the Lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”

8 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.


Zechariah 3:1-2
Cleansing for the High Priest

3 Then the angel showed me Jeshua[a] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel’s right hand, making accusations against Jeshua. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “I, the Lord, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire.”

So, when was the adversary cast to earth?

How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

I'm thinking by the time he knew about Jesus:

Revelation 12:13

13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

John 17:1-5
The Prayer of Jesus

17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

What is God's "glory"?

"In Exodus 16:7 we read "and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD" (RSV). What is the "glory" of YHWH? First we must recognize that the "glory" is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word "glory" is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of Elohiym (God) is paralleled with his "shield" and in Job 29:20, Job's kavod is paralleled with his "bow." In Psalm 24:8 we read "who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle." The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. The meaning "armament" fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod, which is "heavy," and armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will "see" the "armament" of YHWH, the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians." SOURCE

So essentially, we're part of a spiritual battle:

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we[a] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.

2 Corinthians 3:18

18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
I mostly agree with what you said, i do not know what the divine council is but that is besides the point.

The main thing is I believe that Jesus and The Heavenly Father and The Holy Spirit looking down from Heaven knew all that would take place from beginning to the end, and Jesus being the Alpha and The Omega the beginning and the end still agreed to create all of creation despite knowing what He must do in terms of pain and the price to be paid, because He loved us and wanted us to be with Him forever.

People like to think that Jesus if He knew what we would do (sin) they like to ask why He created us. And i believe He created us because He knew what He would do in response and knew that the opportunity for salvation was there for anyone to freely take, all they had to do was ask Him.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I actually made a thread on this a while ago, it wasn't anything much but when I was reading I noticed a possible link between Genesis 3:14 & Job 1:7 (Job is the oldest book in the Bible). Here were some quotes from that thread:
I didn't know Job was before Genesis. I have a chronological study plan that puts Genesis 1st and then the book of Job. If you recall, this is my theory:
In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:
At the fall, he was still part of the divine council, but not in the position he once was. (Thinking of a business structure as an example) he went from being an assistant manager to janitor. lol

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:
What about Zechariah 3:1-2 ? Where does that fit in after the fall of humanity?

I had scriptures up in tabs last night but I was tired and overwhelmed. I see the correlation between king of tyre and the birth of Jesus (which I mentioned in the OP), another interesting passage is when Jesus said:

Luke 10:17-19

17 When the seventy-two disciples returned, they joyfully reported to him, “Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!”

18 “Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning! 19 Look, I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy, and you can walk among snakes and scorpions and crush them. Nothing will injure you.

When did Jesus see satan fall from heaven like lightning? When the disciples cast out demons? When he was born? Before he was born and still with the Father?
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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I didn't know Job was before Genesis. I have a chronological study plan that puts Genesis 1st and then the book of Job.
Chronologically within Bible Genesis does come first, but Job is the oldest book. Traditionally the Pentateuch/Torah was written by Moses whereas Job existed before the time of Moses, that doesn't make it chronologically earlier for the timeline of The Bible because Genesis speaks about events that happened before Job was written (like creation).
What about Zechariah 3:1-2 ? Where does that fit in after the fall of humanity?
Zechariah 3:1-5 is one of my favourite verses in The Bible. It calls out Christ by name (Joshua) 500ish years before He became incarnate and prophesies Christ's sacrifice and atonement for our sins (Zechariah 3:3-5). Zechariah is dated to be written around 520BC so after the Babylonian captivity.
When did Jesus see satan fall from heaven like lightning? When the disciples cast out demons? When he was born? Before he was born and still with the Father?
We can only take guesses. I heard something a while ago that I found helpful for me personally, "We should whisper what the Bible whispers, yell what the Bible yells and be silent where the Bible is silent". This question is intensely complicated as it delves into eschatology and the book of revelation because of the war in Heaven where the dragon is cast down. I can't answer this question for you as it is far beyond me but the best I can do is give you a couple of excerpts from commentaries in the hope you might find it helpful.

Holman Illustrated Bible Commentary
"10:17–20 Part of the healing that the Seventy disciples performed (v. 9) had to do with casting out demons. The phrase Satan fall from heaven is probably an echo of Eze 28:16–17, speaking of the initial judgment upon the Devil after he rebelled against God. This passage speaks of a further defeat suffered by Satan as Jesus’ disciples were victorious in ministry over the power of the enemy (Satan), symbolized here by snakes and scorpions. As awesome as the power to cast out demons was, it was even more significant that the disciples’ names were written in the listing of the elect of God—the Lamb’s book of life in heaven (see Rev 13:8)."

The New American Commentary
"10:18 The difficulty of this verse argues in favor of its authenticity.
I saw. The verb “saw” can mean an ordinary physical experience (Luke 14:29; Luke 21:6; Luke 23:35,48; Luke 24:37), a gift of foresight or insight (Acts 27:10; John 4:19; 12:19), or have a symbolic meaning. Here it could refer to the fall of Satan seen by the pre-existent Son (Isa 14:12). It is more likely, however, that it refers symbolically to what the exorcisms performed by the seventy(-two) meant. Their casting out of demons demonstrated the defeat of Satan (cf. Luke 11:20–22). The tense of this verb, an inceptive aorist, is better captured by translating it “I was seeing.” Luke understood each exorcism by the seventy(-two) as demonstrating the defeat of Satan.
Satan fall. “Satan” is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew term used to describe the archenemy of God and humanity (Job 1:6–12; 2:1–7). It is usually translated into Greek by the term “devil,” though in Luke-Acts “Satan” is also used. Although Isa 14:12 may refer to the original fall of Satan, most references tend to refer to his future fall or defeat.
Fall like lightning from heaven. There are two ways of translating “from heaven”: adjectivally (“fall as lightning-from-heaven”) or adverbially (“fall from heaven like lightning”). The second is more likely. “Lightning” indicates not brightness but the suddenness of the fall. In the exorcisms of the seventy(-two), Jesus saw Satan’s defeat resulting from his coming".

Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Commentary
"10:18 This verse provides a commentary on what the disciples’ healing ministry meant. The reversal of the effects of sin and death, which Satan introduced through his deception in Gen. 3, are portrayed graphically as Satan falling from heaven. Jesus’ ministry and what grows out of it represents the defeat of Satan, sin, and death."

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help with this specific question. I would also direct you towards this excellent website as it explains it far better than I can: How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven? | GotQuestions.org

God bless :heart:
 
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YahuahSaves

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I mostly agree with what you said, i do not know what the divine council is but that is besides the point.
The video in the OP is from the bible project, (a couple of guys that study the original hebrew and make videos and podcast discussions) the divine council are the spiritual beings God created (angels, etc). The video is only 6 minutes long if you want to understand more.

The main thing is I believe that Jesus and The Heavenly Father and The Holy Spirit looking down from Heaven knew all that would take place from beginning to the end, and Jesus being the Alpha and The Omega the beginning and the end still agreed to create all of creation despite knowing what He must do in terms of pain and the price to be paid, because He loved us and wanted us to be with Him forever.

People like to think that Jesus if He knew what we would do (sin) they like to ask why He created us. And i believe He created us because He knew what He would do in response and knew that the opportunity for salvation was there for anyone to freely take, all they had to do was ask Him.
I addressed what scripture says at the end of my post. Many people believe God's "glory" is his goodness (I thought so too). He is good and I like to think that his goodness is part of the armour we're meant to "put on" spiritually. But my OP links the ancient-hebrew word used and it's interesting:

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

John 17:1-5
The Prayer of Jesus

17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

What is God's "glory"?

"In Exodus 16:7 we read "and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD" (RSV). What is the "glory" of YHWH? First we must recognize that the "glory" is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word "glory" is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of Elohiym (God) is paralleled with his "shield" and in Job 29:20, Job's kavod is paralleled with his "bow." In Psalm 24:8 we read "who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle." The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. The meaning "armament" fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod, which is "heavy," and armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will "see" the "armament" of YHWH, the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians." SOURCE
 
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YahuahSaves

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Zechariah 3:1-5 is one of my favourite verses in The Bible. It calls out Christ by name (Joshua) 500ish years before He became incarnate and prophesies Christ's sacrifice and atonement for our sins (Zechariah 3:3-5). Zechariah is dated to be written around 520BC so after the Babylonian captivity.
Interesting. I guess I hadn't picked up on that as I'm fairly new to reading scripture and I was told the "the angel of the Lord" was Jesus....who is it, then?

Holman Illustrated Bible Commentary
"10:17–20 Part of the healing that the Seventy disciples performed (v. 9) had to do with casting out demons. The phrase Satan fall from heaven is probably an echo of Eze 28:16–17, speaking of the initial judgment upon the Devil after he rebelled against God. This passage speaks of a further defeat suffered by Satan as Jesus’ disciples were victorious in ministry over the power of the enemy (Satan), symbolized here by snakes and scorpions. As awesome as the power to cast out demons was, it was even more significant that the disciples’ names were written in the listing of the elect of God—the Lamb’s book of life in heaven (see Rev 13:8)."
I believe the king was a man that perhaps is paralleled with Satan's pride. (And perhaps satan influenced as well)
1 Chronicles 14:1, Matthew 15:21

Is the king of Tyre prophecy in Ezekiel 28 referring to Satan?

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help with this specific question. I would also direct you towards this excellent website as it explains it far better than I can: How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven? | GotQuestions.org
^_^ I linked that article in my OP^

No worries, thanks for the discussion. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Interesting. I guess I hadn't picked up on that as I'm fairly new to reading scripture and I was told the "the angel of the Lord" was Jesus....who is it, then?
You're right that The Angel of The Lord is pre-incarnate Christ, it's indisputable at least in Genesis where He's literally called THE LORD (which means Yahweh when you see that in the Bible in all caps). Joshua was the high priest at the time (not Jesus) of this prophecy in Israel and if you read the book of Hebrews Jesus is called our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-16). The High Priest during the day of atonement would be the one who entered into the Holy of holies to offer atonement for the sins of Israel, so by calling Christ our High Priest he's linking these together. With this latter explanation from Hebrews you can see how Zechariah 3:1-5 is prophesying Christ (by name). Another one of my favourite scripture sections that prophesies Christ is Jeremiah 31:31-34. It prophesies the new covenant and Christ's work 620-580ish years before Christ's incarnation.
^_^ I linked that article in my OP^
I'm so sorry, I'm absolutely stuffed I think i've written the equivalent of 10 essays today lol. If you have any more questions or anything like that or just want to chat about Bible stuff then feel free to shoot me a message. My inbox is open to the saints 24/7 :).
 
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keras

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Why we are here:

Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer. [the light bearer]

It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.


God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.

What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.

God may have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world, which does give humans the choice between good and evil.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry. So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land.



Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight. In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.

Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross. He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer by rising to life again.


Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognise the Messiah, but Righteous Israel – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all wicked peoples, Jer. 12:14, and His Christian people will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:1, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +

WE Christians are the Witnesses for God, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27

Ref: logostelos.info
 
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YahuahSaves

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With this latter explanation from Hebrews you can see how Zechariah 3:1-5 is prophesying Christ (by name).
OK maybe i misinterpreted what you meant... I'll have a read when I'm not so tired.

I'm so sorry, I'm absolutely stuffed I think i've written the equivalent of 10 essays today lol. If you have any more questions or anything like that or just want to chat about Bible stuff then feel free to shoot me a message. My inbox is open to the saints 24/7 :)
Yeah, I'd say your posts are definitely essays (meaning you're very thorough) which is good, but I bet tiring! Lol. And thanks for the thought provoking discussion :oldthumbsup:
 
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bling

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My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

Do you believe God is outside of time or limited by time?

Would God being omnipresent include being present at all times?

Do you believe there are somethings God cannot do like: Create another Christ since Christ is deity and has always existed and thus not a created being? But also:

God cannot change history, since history is what has happened and even if God is the only one to know something that happened, it still happened and cannot be erased.

God at the end of man’s time, would know all that happened throughout man’s time as pure unchangeable history. But does just knowing what happened prevent some autonomous free will choices taking place in the past? In other words, does my knowing a free will choice you made yesterday, prevent that choice from being a free will choice?

God at the end of time would be in communication with Himself at the beginning of man’s time providing the complete perfect history of man’s time, but again knowing the historic free will decisions that were made by man throughout time does not prevent those decisions from being free will choices and yet, they are unchangeable (history).

This is difficult for humans to comprehend.



You said: “God is displaying his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation”

I would disagree with you here: God’s greatest Glory is seen in His Love. This Love is illogical, totally unselfish, sacrificial, unconditional, compelling God in all He does and is God himself. Christ’s greatest glory is seen while He is on the cross.

God is not trying to make a huge “showing” to ______. That almost sound like God is self-seeking.

God’s Love means He is a huge giver not needing or even expecting anything in return, but would be pleased with gratitude. God’s Love would thus compel Him to make beings whom He could shower with unbelievable wonderful gifts, but it would not be Loving on God’s part nor would the Love these beings received be Godly type Love if it is not their free will choice to humble accept this Love as pure undeserved charity (the way it is given). God cannot make these people Loving against their own will, this would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun and Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive to the person (a robotic love).
Humans were thus made and put in the very best place (this messed up world), so some willing individuals could obtain Godly type Love and thus become like God Himself and dwell happily with God in heaven forever.
 
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Mark Quayle

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My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?
Display it to whom?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I agree. . .

However, I find in Scripture that it is all God's design, for the pleasure (Rev 4:11) of showing forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son (Php 2:11; Eph 3:10, Eph 1:20-23; 1Co 15:24-28; Col 1:16-20; 1Co 1:18-20).

To that end, I see God as decreeing a controversy with Satan in which
1) God's goodness, love, mercy, etc. will be glorified through the church (Eph 3:8-11) in its redemption by the Son, the bride prepared by the Father for his Son in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32), while
2) his justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. will be glorified through Satan by overcoming him in such a way that
he will no longer contest (Job 1:9-11, Zec 3:1-2, Rev 12:10), but will be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Ro 3:4, Php 2:10-11).

God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).
This is something that I love about how God does things: While he has every right and every ability to overwhelm and drive his creation, he rarely does how we would write it in a book for a supreme being to be doing, but uses the most mundane earthy things to accomplish his purposes, to the point that we are all without excuse, yet we all find ways to excuse ourselves for our self-determination.

The Gospel of Grace demonstrates that creation is due no consideration for what it is or what it can do —in fact, for those made in his image, quite the opposite is true; what they are in Adam, and what they are due is condemnation!— thus, from beginning to end, it is all the work of God, to his praise and glory.
 
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eleos1954

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I know this post is long, was trying to be as thorough as possible, but there seems to be layers to this and it's probably better to allow others to add to the discussion.

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

What does it mean that God is omniscient?

"Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing."

Hebrews 4:13

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide from me in a secret place?
Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?”
says the Lord.

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the things I have done in the past.
For I alone am God!
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 Only I can tell you the future
before it even happens.
Everything I plan will come to pass,
for I do whatever I wish.

Before God created everything (and us) he already had a plan on how he would ultimately display his glory:

1 Peter 1:19-20

19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.[a]

God (the Father) created the world through the Son (the lamb/the word/Jesus Christ):

Colossians 1:16-17

16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.


Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)


God created human beings in his image to reign over creation on the Earth:

Genesis 1:26-28

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings[c] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)

Genesis 3:1-5
The Man and Woman Sin

3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

An example here that anyone hiding from God, and him not "knowing" what happened is impossible, as he is omniscient:

Genesis 3:8-11

8 When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man[a] and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11 “Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?

In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:

Job 1:6-12
Job’s First Test

6 One day the members of the heavenly court[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 “Where have you come from?” the Lord asked Satan.

Satan answered the Lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”

8 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.


Zechariah 3:1-2
Cleansing for the High Priest

3 Then the angel showed me Jeshua[a] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel’s right hand, making accusations against Jeshua. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “I, the Lord, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire.”

So, when was the adversary cast to earth?

How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

I'm thinking by the time he knew about Jesus:

Revelation 12:13

13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

John 17:1-5
The Prayer of Jesus

17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

What is God's "glory"?

"In Exodus 16:7 we read "and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD" (RSV). What is the "glory" of YHWH? First we must recognize that the "glory" is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word "glory" is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of Elohiym (God) is paralleled with his "shield" and in Job 29:20, Job's kavod is paralleled with his "bow." In Psalm 24:8 we read "who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle." The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. The meaning "armament" fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod, which is "heavy," and armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will "see" the "armament" of YHWH, the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians." SOURCE

So essentially, we're part of a spiritual battle:

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we[a] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.

2 Corinthians 3:18

18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
Indeed it is a battle for the mind. The godhead is a family unit. God extended His family through His creation of mankind. Satan had access to heaven …. Until the Cross, at the cross kingship was fully given (restored) to Jesus. We can experience spiritual kingdom living now …. The full reality will happen when Jesus returns. Proving a point? Kindish …. War started in heaven …. And there was a divide …. Lucifer convinced some of the angels that they didn’t need God …. The angels left in heaven needed to know what living without God is like So it could be settled in their minds and to understand the plan of salvation (the gospel) 1 Peter 1:12. It was a cosmic problem … not just a problem within mankind
 
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LOL well praise God as fun as speculation is.. Not sure why we don't flip so to speak about "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." Yet here we are talking about what was in the mind of God before the world was?

Again speculation. So God knew before hand, something I agree with but God knew about Adam and Eve yet after the fall God was looking for them Huh? God asked where are you? Again huh? God asking them who told you? God didn't know? God.. did you eat of the tree I told you not to? Again God didn't know? How about God coming to see if the evil that had reached His ear "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.". Hmm

I don't know what He has planned nor do I know what was not written about for then is as said a theory speculation. I've heard by some about the Earth that God paused on the stars and focused on the earth and finished it but not the rest. Hmm. How about Satan where we read there was no place found for him. So what is hell? What if God in all His mercy and grace gave Satan what he wanted? Is it not written hell was prepared made for the devil and his angels not for man? A place where God is no there. Well is all speculation.

So what GOD was thinking.. wow I can't even grasp. For some reason He never shared it with us...yet
 
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Saint Steven

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My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?
Interesting topic, thanks.

Definitely more than "some". (but, I'm sure you didn't mean to limit God's omniscience)
God knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with ALL of his created beings.

God is God, of course. Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as is?
Same with his power and authority. What does he have to prove? And to whom?

What if, for example sake, we applied these characteristics to a human? See below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine a larger than average sixth grade boy pushing his way into a group of first graders on the playground.
He begins by asking them academic questions to prove that he is smarter than they are.
And berates them for their inferior knowledge.

Next he demonstrates his authority. The playground supervisor has enlisted his help to keep things in order.
So he knows all the rules and helps to enforce them. He takes away their ball because they violated a rule.

Then he finds the largest boy in the group to belittle and push around, thus proving his power.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With that mental picture in mind, why would God behave that way?

I suppose what you mean by the word "some" from your post quote above,
is that SOME, meaning NOT ALL, would CHOOSE not to _____________. (fill in the blank.
Not believe, not follow, disobey, and the like.
Thus separating all his created humankind into TWO groups.

This strikes me as a reverse engineered apologetic to support a doctrinal position.
With a long, very long post, of support data following the same trajectory.

Let's return to the playground with another view.

I realize that every analogy breaks down at some point.
So focus on the over all message rather than pick at the details, if you would. Thanks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imagine a larger than average sixth grade boy finding his way into a group of first graders on the playground.

He introduces himself and asks the first graders their names too.
During introductions he learns that one of the children fell and skinned a knee.
After inspecting the knee, he gets a first aid kit to clean it up a bit.

At this point the children are really becoming attached to the sixth grade boy.
One of them asks if he will read a book to them. They all gather around and enjoy listening.

Then recess time is over. The children beg the sixth grader to come back tomorrow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which sixth grader best represents your view of God?
 
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