The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[LoveofTruth]

It's not "exalted above."

Yes they are and Paul addresses this in some gatherings,

"But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ...Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face." (2 Corinthians 11:12,13, 18-20)

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil," ( 3 John 9-11)

"Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." ( Acts 2-:30, 31)

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;" ( Romans 12:3-6)

The person presiding over worship guides and prompts what is happening,

No, it is to be Christ working in every part that effectually works and leads the body and makes us perfect unto every good work. This is a deeply spiritual thing and cannot be done by anyone in the world.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Eph. 4:15,16)

but they are one worshipper amongst a body of worshippers.

then meet in homes, no altars or platforms where they are exalted and where all face them above and look at the back of each others heads with no body ministry. But rather EVERY gathering allow all to function as scripture commands whenever we come together, (1 Cor 14:26-38). I speak specifically of the gatherings in Christ where all can and should edify each other in Christ as they are led.

And they are not there to control or dominate.

They may not intend to but they do and they are written in their By-Laws that they alone have the power over all to minister and no one can speak or minister unless they allow it etc. Yes, I have read that in some so called man made commandments called "By-Laws). We should not be making new laws that contradict scripture. What I speak about here is soo important and yet many will see it as unimportant. Scripture warns against making the word of God of no effect by traditions of men. We are warned to rebuke sharply those who follow the commandments of men that turn from the truth and to withdraw from them. And we read,

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head..." ( Colossians 2:8,9) And Christ alone is the head of the church. Spoli means to rob you of your goods. (gifts also)

As I have explained earlier in the thread, this is incorrect. All of us have times when we are active in ministry, and times when we receive from others.

I am speaking specifically when the church comes together. This is commanded by God in scripture I simply remind others of Gods order and commands. Read 1 Cor 14:26-38. We should not do our own things and say well, we can all minister through the week so the Sunday meeting can be left alone" Not his is not right according to scripture, that can easily be shown.

If you reduce the life of the church to the main instance of worship for the week it might look as if few are active;

I never said I reduce the life or function of the church to the gatherings. But in the gatherings they are very important to grow up into Christ. If believers do not allow this and if one man dominates and tries to control the free body ministry then they hinder the body and others who yo go along with this for fear of man and man made By-Laws will not be good stewards of the grace and gifts. We are commanded to use our gifts among one another. How can any totally disregard this for the sake of a wrong man made tradition we see today?

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. " (1 Peter 4:10,11)

but the life of the church goes right through the week, in worship gatherings and small groups and all sorts of gathering and service.

I see this as an attempt to avoid the commands of God for the when the church comes together to try and keep the same order.

By the way many so called "pastors" that I have met I fear are afraid to follow the commands of Gods order in body ministry because they realize that they cannot dominate or get a salary any more and they are not the only main one needed in the body. They also will come to realize that the church met in homes and so the massive expensive debt ridden buildings they have are not right either and are a burden on the body often.

As far as ministers getting a salary, I don't see this in scripture either, only itinerant apostles and other itinerant ministries can, (not have to) receive some help in the work. Elders, Paul said should work with their own hands as Paul gave an example. I know this will cause stress to some. But if any come to realize this, i would encourage the body to help them for a time until they get jobs and can be self sufficient. And gather in homes and wait on the Lord. Use the large building for the poor and other areas, perhaps evangeilsm etc. Or sell it and help those in need in the body and help the pastor get a job supporting him till he does,

In a healthy church, everyone's gifts are valued and find expression. But not all at the same time.

Not all at the same time as we read in 1 Cor 14 they need to be in order. But all can minister as they are led at the same place and especially when they gather.

These are simply the commandments of the Lord. if anyone here is spiritual or a prophet or has discernment let them acknowledge these things according to scripture and the witness in their spirit. If not, read 1 Cor 14:37,38.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes they are

To see presiding at worship as being "exalted above" the congregation is a misunderstanding of what is happening.

No, it is to be Christ working in every part that effectually works and leads the body and makes us perfect unto every good work. This is a deeply spiritual thing and cannot be done by anyone in the world.

Who said anything about anyone in the world? We are talking here about leadership in the Church, and the fact that in any group, there will be someone who provides leadership of the group's activity, whether formally or informally. There's nothing wrong with recognising that fact, and ensuring that the leaders are of appropriate character, experience, wisdom, and so on.

then meet in homes,

This is great for some, but not necessary. Christians can gather and worship effectively in a variety of settings.

They may not intend to but they do

No, they really don't. At least, not the healthy ones.

I am speaking specifically when the church comes together. This is commanded by God in scripture I simply remind others of Gods order and commands. Read 1 Cor 14:26-38. We should not do our own things and say well, we can all minister through the week so the Sunday meeting can be left alone" Not his is not right according to scripture, that can easily be shown.

God does not command in Scripture the pattern of the church's gatherings, or of the use of each person's gifts. Some gifts are easily incorporated into worship gatherings, others - like administration, for example - are best expressed in other parts of the church's life. That does not make any gift more important or valued than another.

I never said I reduce the life or function of the church to the gatherings.

Is not your whole criticism that every person should contribute to the main worship gathering? Does that not ignore the contributions so many make in other parts of the life of the church?

If believers do not allow this ...

Why do you assume that people are not allowed to contribute?

We are commanded to use our gifts among one another. How can any totally disregard this for the sake of a wrong man made tradition we see today?

I don't believe we do. You are levelling a false accusation.

By the way many so called "pastors" that I have met I fear are afraid to follow the commands of Gods order in body ministry because they realize that they cannot dominate or get a salary any more and they are not the only main one needed in the body.

In my experience, most ministers would be delighted if people would be willing to contribute more, but struggle to get people to do so.

These are simply the commandments of the Lord.

I don't agree. They are instances of worship which you are claiming as commandments, when in fact the experience of the church has always been varied and flexible.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To see presiding at worship as being "exalted above" the congregation is a misunderstanding of what is happening.

To Preside over means

"Preside over - to be in charge of a meeting, trial, etc. or during an important event: On Tuesday he presided over a three-hour board meeting.4 days ago" (Cambridge english dictionary_

Preside - to be in charge of a formal meeting, ceremony, or trial:" ( Cambridge English Dictionary).

Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" (Matthew 20:25-27)

Notice Jesus said and said “it shall not be so among you”. Today many are called "Masters of Divinity etc".

Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10).

Almost all of the activities in the assembly today are controlled by the Pastor and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. There is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs in man’s order. Many are unaware of their freedoms in the body of Christ and even if they were, they would be afraid to speak as God leads them, fearing the disapproval and rebuke of the pastor. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the assembly, rather than wait on God and to be led by the Spirit in mutual edification of one another in God’s order.

Who said anything about anyone in the world?

I was differentiating between a spiritual believer and a canal person who is not led by the spirit. Only those in the spirit can walk in the spirit and all believers are in the spirit if they abide in Christ and all can minister in the spirit as they are commanded to allow in Christ. The natural man or anyone in the world", cannot do this. Paul warns not to quench the spirit or to cut off the flow of God's spirit in the body ministry. These things are clear in scripture I marvel at how they get missed by so many. Christianity s a spiritual walk not a intellectual wisdom of man and mans order and commandments and traditions . Some today seem afraid of spiritual things, they act like they are weird or uncertain and quickly refer to the wisdom of man. But our faith does not stand in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

We are talking here about leadership in the Church, and the fact that in any group, there will be someone who provides leadership of the group's activity, whether formally or informally.

This is what I am speaking of also. Christ as the head of the body leads empowers effectually works in every part of the body to make increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love. Yes there will be elders who hear and grow in that walk and are more skillful in the word of righteousness than a babe. But Christ is the head. John even goes as far as to say,

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27 KJV)

Now some will immediately say, "well, God gives teachers to the body, so arent they needed?". Yes all in the body as they are led by the spirit in the grace and gifts given from God are needed. But what John is showing that you need not any MAN (those in the flesh and not in Christ) who act as controlling Lords over you and bring in fleshly doctrines. Those in the spirit hear Christ in the body and in one another and can say Amen. But those in the flesh are not witnessed in the spirit. So we need not any fleshly carnal man to teach us. We lisen for the revelation from God according to the word and inner witness. The grace from the Spirit teaches us all things in Christ.

Paul also speaks of this when he said,

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. ...14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Cor. 14:11, 12, 14 KJV)

There's nothing wrong with recognising that fact, and ensuring that the leaders are of appropriate character, experience, wisdom, and so on.

Those who are recognized as Elder/overseers, must walk in the spirit and reflect the work of God in them and be known in this. But they do not lord over or control or dominate or take flattering titles ver others or hinder the spirit in the body ministry ( or they shouldn't). They are like an older brother who tells the younger (through is experience) the things he has learned from the father . If the yonger is in the spirit they will hear the word of God through them and be persuaded by it and say amen. Also some babe in Christ may not be able to withstand the falsehood of heretics and gainsayers of the truth , but a more mature brother can do this through his walk and experience, so they are very helpful in the body to watch over, not Lord over others.

When I plant a church in homes, or if i start in a man made religious system of man and work towards God's order. I teach about waiting on the Lord and God;s order. I share about what the walk in the spirit is and the need for that revelation in Christ. I show the order of God and his leading to allow the freedoms for God to work among us as we gather.according to scripture. Also I will speak of a time when mature brothers will be known by the work and faithful teaching and evidence among them and they (plural) should be ordained ( recognized or chosen out), I teach what an elder is to doing among them and what they are not to do, according to the order given in scripture.

This is great for some, but not necessary. Christians can gather and worship effectively in a variety of settings.

I speak of whenever they gather in Christ for edification of one another at all times.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.” ) 1 Cor. 14:26, 30, 31 KJV)

And the order is for all the churches of the saints as we read in scripture. They should all speak the same things abd have the sane order. Gods order and his leading in the body is for all the churches. There is no other way as we read in scripture. When men go another way this is where the problems come .

No, they really don't. At least, not the healthy ones.

As I said "If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." And this quenching of the spirit is in almost every gathering in the world.

God does not command in Scripture the pattern of the church's gatherings, or of the use of each person's gifts.

Yes he does,This is his order as he works in every believer to make us perfect in EVERY good work (Hebrews 13:20, 21, Ephesians 4:15, 16)

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints... 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor. 14:26-33, 37, 38 KJV)

Read Romans 12:1-8 as well.

Some gifts are easily incorporated into worship gatherings, others - like administration, for example - are best expressed in other parts of the church's life. That does not make any gift more important or valued than another.

By not allowing the body to edify itself as Christ effectually works in them and to be good stewards of the grace and gifts given by God you are saying to some parts you have no need of you. We should not do this Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 12, and says that all parts of the body are needed.

Is not your whole criticism that every person should contribute to the main worship gathering?

No, only if they are led by the Spirit and wait on the Lord. But all can and are free to edify one another as scripture shows clearly. It is not called : the main worship gathering: in scripture, This is simply the assembly of the saints the whole church coming together into one place. When they met in a home they were free to edify one another. if what they were doing pr saying was not edifying at that time, they should be silent. As scripture teaches.

Does that not ignore the contributions so many make in other parts of the life of the church?

I am only referring to when the church comes together and the edification of the body with one another here. Yes, many minister in their whole life outside the gatherings. But I am speaking about the gatherings here. The one place where as a body we should be able to edify one another, but unfortunately this is the one place where the entire body is silenced and quenched sadly.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Why do you assume that people are not allowed to contribute?

I don't assume I have seen it in almost every Christian gathering out there and it is even written in their man made By laws ( commandments of men that turn from the truth often), that the pastor alone is under the ministry section and no one is allowed to speak of minister unless he allows it. Some say they can't even have a prayer meeting together without him.

I don't believe we do. You are levelling a false accusation.

No, it is not false. I have looked at some of the things in your gathering and they do not line up.

I can ask a few questions and see if your gathering is in God's order or not or if your gathering does have those who dominate over others and hinder body ministry.

1. Do some of your brothers and sisters wear a special clothing over others for ministry? If so they create a false place for certain believers just in the clothing and this creates a wrong respect for certain men by the way they dress ( read James 2). It creates a false division between the false so called "clergy" and "laity". There is no clergy and laity division in scripture. This alone makes the others feel that the ones wearing the special clothes are somehow the ministry and so they are silent and cannot speak a doctrine or revelation in meetings.

2, Does your gathering wait on the Lord in every meeting for revelation doctrine tongues, prophecy edification and all gifts in the spirit. Do you follow 1 Cor 14:26-37, and 1 Peter 4:10, 11, etc? If not then you do not follow the commands of God for the church and I did not charge you falsely.

3. Do you have a thing called an "altar", or special platform and pulpit where the one ministering is exalted above others in a higher exalted place where all the body faces forward looking at the back of each others heads to the exalted person speaking? If so this alone hinders the body ministry and they don't even see each others faces and are directed to the one man ministry over all on the high place or altar or platform above them. This is like a lecture or old testament sacrificial system.

4. Does you assembly believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today? If not, then we have another discussion. How can any minister and by what means do they do so if not in the spirit? This would reduce the gatherings and ministry to the wisdom of man? And again I would be correct Read 1 Cor 2 etc.

5. Do some in the gatherings sit in a special seat above the rest or on a platform? And are any called "the Pastor" , or other titles? We don't see this in scripture. There are five main gifts, apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. These are gifts not titles. Also if you don't have these five or allow them to come in and function, then you hinder the edification of the church. Do you have aostles and prophets? or believe in them today? If not, them I am correct in my charge.

6. Do you meet in a large man made building unbiblically called a church? If so , this is not true or the church. the true church is the body of Christ abd by distracting this and calling a building of brick and mortar the church causes the true church to looses its focus and function and is lost to a religious structure and system of men. The church is the body of Christ and made up of many parts, not a building or system of man.

7. When there are issues in the body do you fllow the command of Jesus and bring it before the whole church and let the whole church make decisions as commanded in Matthew 18? If not then you are not in the order commanded by Christ. From my experience the one man dominating and controlling everything who is called the pastor is the one that deals with this, unbiblically.

Thats a good start, I could add many more questions but this is a start.

In my experience, most ministers would be delighted if people would be willing to contribute more, but struggle to get people to do so.

It is not if they are delighted for this. It is a scriptural order commanded. But they would not be so delighted if others have doctrines and revelation and if they are corrected at times. They would fear loosing their position and money often. From my experience.

One reason others would not feel free to minister is because of years in forced silence and lack of understanding of body ministry as seen in scripture all over the place. First they would need to be taught about the freedoms and order of God.

Sometimes the overseers have to get out of the way and let God work among them. Paul left some gatherings with God and the word of His graced of His grace and went back much later to see how they did and then, (later) ordain elders that were known and came forth).

I have ahd to go into the other room at times and let the body function, so they would not get use to me speaking too much.

I don't agree. They are instances of worship which you are claiming as commandments, when in fact the experience of the church has always been varied and flexible.

it is not if they are delighted for this. It is a scriptural order commanded. But they would not be so delighted if others have doctrines and revelation and if they are corrected at times. They would fear loosing their position and money often. From my experience.

One reason others would not feel free to minister is because of years in forced silence and lack of understanding of body ministry as seen in scripture all over the place. First they would need to be taught about the freedoms and order of God.

 

[Paidiske]

To Preside over means

"Preside over - to be in charge of a meeting, trial, etc. or during an important event:

And in worship it's important that someone sees that things are done decently and in order; not to stifle, but to bring out the best of what everyone has to contribute. It's not about being exalted over others.

But they do not lord over or control or dominate

And that is exactly what I am saying is just as true in healthy churches, no matter their liturgical norms or polity.

Yes he does,This is his order as he works in every believer to make us perfect in EVERY good work (Hebrews 13:20, 21, Ephesians 4:15, 16)

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints... 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor. 14:26-33, 37, 38 KJV)

The point there is that all things be done for building up. There can be variety in how that happens. In fact the diversity of gifts and personalities and cultures in different communities means that there will be variety in how that happens, unless conformity is unnaturally forced.

By not allowing the body to edify itself as Christ effectually works in them and to be good stewards of the grace and gifts given by God you are saying to some parts you have no need of you.

Not at all. I do not agree that I am "not allowing the body to edify itself." I am just recognising that edifying happens in different times, places, ways, and so on.

I don't assume I have seen it in almost every Christian gathering out there

In most congregations I've been part of, there have been ways for everyone to contribute. The exception were those that refused to allow women to do so.

No, it is not false. I have looked at some of the things in your gathering and they do not line up.

What do you know of "my gathering"?

1. Do some of your brothers and sisters wear a special clothing over others for ministry?

The fact that you describe it as "over" others immediately shows you don't understand vestments.

The basic vestment is an alb, and it represents the baptismal identity of every believer. It's symbolic, but not symbolic of power or control or domination; symbolic of our identity in Christ, which is shared by every baptised person.

2, Does your gathering wait on the Lord in every meeting for revelation doctrine tongues, prophecy edification and all gifts in the spirit.

We wouldn't quite put it that way, but there are times of silence and opportunities for everyone to contribute.

3. Do you have a thing called an "altar",

We have a table for holy communion, yes.

or special platform and pulpit where the one ministering is exalted above others in a higher exalted place

There is a lectern with a microphone, and people speaking tend to stand there so that our folks who are hard of hearing can actually hear what is being said. It's not about being exalted, it's about being able to actually see and hear what is being shared.

In a typical service, it is not one person alone who speaks, reads, shares, though.

4. Does you assembly believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today?

Yes.

5. Do some in the gatherings?

Do some in the gatherings... what?

And are any called "the Pastor" , or other titles?

I'm the parish priest (elder, in Biblical terms), but we very seldom use titles.

Do you have aostles and prophets? or believe in them today?

I believe in them, but I do not have anyone with a prophetic gift currently. Not out of any objection, it's just the Spirit seems to have given us other gifts just now.

6. Do you meet in a large man made building unbiblically called a church?

Sure, but I see no problem with this. Christians have met in a variety of buildings through our history.

if so the true church , which is the body of Christ looses its focus and function and is lost to a religious structure and system of men.

I disagree that we have lost our focus and function. We are a community effective in mission. And in fact, the building gives us scope to serve our community in ways that would be impractical and unsafe if we were working only from people's homes.

7. when there are issues in the body do you fllow the command of Jesus and bring it before the whole church and let the whole church make decisions as commanded in Matthew 18?

It depends on the issue, but if it is significant enough, yes.

But they would not be so delighted if others have doctrines and revelation and if they are corrected at times.

All of us have to be open to correction. Someone who is not willing to be corrected, is not fit for leadership in the church.

But you seem to have a very rigid impression of what church can and should be, and to be unwilling to see how God can be at work in different ways in different communities.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And in worship it's important that someone sees that things are done decently and in order;

In the order of God and according to scripture it is Christ that works effectually in every part.

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

And this is how the church “edifies” (builds up) one another in the body.

Also “elders” (plural) in every church (singular) are part of God’s order (Acts 14:23). They “watch over” not “lord over” or exalt themselves over others or control everything. Paul warns against this false exalting in 2 Cor 11 abd Acts 20 as I have shown already.

The “decently and in order” verse you may be trying to use is from 1 Corinthians 14. But that order there is as God gives gifts snd leading. To be out of order there was to not allow God to govern or lead in the body and to not allow Christ to work effectually in every part to edify the body.

This decently and in order is not a man made order or commandment of man. It is the commandment of the Lord as vs 37 shows.

There is no one man pastor over the church in any New Testament letters.

We never read if a one man pastor ministry over all controlling all or trying to see that things are fine a certain way.

Eiders are simply mature brothers who watch over and exhort and convince gainsayers with sound doctrine. They also feed many and teach. But they are not the only ones to minister or should be.

They also should be aware of God’s order in the body and encourage others to abide in this order as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and in other places.

not to stifle, but to bring out the best of what everyone has to contribute.

It is not any man that can bring out the best in believers. It is Christ that works effectually in every part abd God makes them perfect unto every good whirl wirking in them.

If we miss the inward spiritual life in Christ and focus on a man made outward order we miss the functioning of the church where we are to grow up into him in all things, then We miss the true edification of the body and play church putting on a show instead….sadly. Then Christ may be outside knocking wanting to come into us and sup with us but many will be inside thinking that all is well with them and that they are rich and increased with goods abd need nothing.

It's not about being exalted over others.

There were many even in the early church that were exalting themselves over others and seeking thier own.

2 Corinthians 11: 20. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 19. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.”

Acts 20: 29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

Philippians 2: 20. For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. 21. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.”

 

[Paidiske]

Also “elders” (plural) in every church (singular) are part of God’s order (Acts 14:23). They “watch over” not “lord over” or exalt themselves over others or control everything.

Which is exactly what I am trying to say. It is not "lording over" others, nor controlling.

Eiders are simply mature brothers who watch over and exhort and convince gainsayers with sound doctrine.

It's fascinating to me that you're arguing for the freedom for everyone to contribute according to their gifts, but apparently you exclude women.

But they are not the only ones to minister or should be.

Of course not.

It is not any man that can bring out the best in believers.

Everyone needs encouragement, though, and support, and feedback.

 

[PloverWing]

It's fascinating to me that you're arguing for the freedom for everyone to contribute according to their gifts, but apparently you exclude women.

I've been noticing that.

Even though my church has the standard forward-facing pews, I get to read Scripture aloud in church on a regular basis, and I'm part of the lay leadership of my church, helping to make decisions about the ministries our church is going to engage in. LoveofTruth, if I were in your church, would I get to do those things?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Which is exactly what I am trying to say. It is not "lording over" others, nor controlling.

Not quite, I was showing that there should not be a one man pastor ministry over all as many, many, many, assemblies do today (and some even have these things written is their man made commandments called "By-Laws" and these things hinder and often quenches the body ministry.

i am also showing that plural elders in every church are in a certain function in the body, but this does not exclude body ministry and every part supplying in Christ.

It's fascinating to me that you're arguing for the freedom for everyone to contribute according to their gifts, but apparently you exclude women.

I don't exclude women in the body ministry at all, I quoted verses that show that every part supplies. There are many many things women can do in the body and also when gathered together, as scripture shows. There are certain functions in the body that are different than others in various aspects and certain restrictions as scripture shows (but that often gets into a long discussion where emotions seem to rule raher than godly edifying and scriptural revelation) . But women can do many things in the body. I touch on some of these things here. Its too long to get into here. For this discussion i am focusing on there not being a single pastor ministry that is exalted and dominates over all and that hinders the free flow of Christ in the body in every part to the edifying of the body, when the whole church comes together and the scriptures that shows God's order in body edification to one another.

I see every part of the body as blessed and vital in Christ. We cannot say to one part I have no need of you. But there are diversities of gifts, functions and operations in the body.

Women in the church and their functions

Women’s in the church and their functioning and roles Before I even address this issue, I want to say at the forefront that women can be functional members of church gatherings and they can speak in the meetings, but there are parameters to this order as well and these become necessary when...

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Everyone needs encouragement, though, and support, and feedback.

The ministering, edifying, revelations etc etc, come to the body through Christ working effectualy in every part as the head of the church ( Ephesians 4;15,16). This is how any believers can function and do anything in Christ and also when we gather together. We are not instructed in scripture to follow mans guidance and mans excellency of speech and wisdom. But we are shown to live and walk and minister as God leads and empowers us. This kind of spiritual walk and ministry will have words of encouragement also and many other words to edify.

The support is as we bear one anothers burdens and edify one another in Christ. This is a deeply spiritual thing when we gather (or it should be). But sadly I fear that for a long time gatherings have retained much of the past ritualistic traditional ways that do not seek to wait on the Lord and use their gifts among one another as good stewards.

Feedback is a word that I see as coming from the body as all can edify one another in Christ. For example Paul says let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. This spiritual judgement will help to address things that are said if they are true or false. Paul does put a restriction in judging of husbands or questioning in judgement women of their husbands here in the meetings. But again a long talk. Also when others speak in faith and the revelation of God and in the gifts given, the body says "amen: and this also can support what was said and have a common union in the Spirit.

Its interesting that when Jesus speaks of two people having issues with one another and they go to others to discuss it he finally says to bring it to the church. This shows that the whole church can hear and find solutions and have feedback,

 

[Paidiske]

Not quite, I was showing that there should not be a one man pastor ministry over all as many, many, many, assemblies do today

And I am trying, apparently fruitlessly, to explain to you that you are misunderstanding and mischaracterising the way pastoral ministry actually functions. Although I do agree that ideally eldership should be exercised collegially.

but this does not exclude body ministry and every part supplying in Christ.

Exactly. Having people in particular leadership roles does not exclude the contributions of others.

I don't exclude women in the body ministry at all, I quoted verses that show that every part supplies. There are many many things women can do in the body and also when gathered together, as scripture shows. There are certain functions in the body that are different than others in various aspects and certain restrictions as scripture shows (but that often gets into a long discussion where emotions seem to rule raher than godly edifying and scriptural revelation) . But women can do many things in the body.

It seems to me that to insist that each should be permitted to contribute as they are gifted and called, except women who must be limited in certain ways, is highly inconsistent.

This shows that the whole church can hear and find solutions and have feedback,

My point is simply that in order for such processes to be orderly and constructive, usually someone must lead or facilitate, whether formally or informally, and this is not wrong but is also a gift.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And I am trying, apparently fruitlessly, to explain to you that you are misunderstanding and mischaracterising the way pastoral ministry actually functions.

I do understand how the biblical pastor gift functions and the other gifts in the body, but I would need to hear from you how you think (with scriptural evidence) how the pastor gift functions as we see it today on most assemblies, where the one gift is made into a title role and that person is over all exalted often above all and on a platform or altar, where they even have a special seat over all exalted that none else can sit in and they where they are in charge of all the activities of the assembly and control everything and no one is allowed to speak or minister unless that one person in a tile role called the "pastor" gives permission.

I eagerly wait for any scripture about this one pastor gift over all in the assembly. Its not there in scripture. You would have to go to the traditions of man and man made commandments to find it and even some of the so called "church fathers", (even though Jesus said call no man father) but its not in scripture.

ButI am willing to be corrected in anything and eagerly wait. Remember, I am looking for the one person called the pastor over all controlling everything in your answer, scripturally. .

Although I do agree that ideally eldership should be exercised collegially.

"collegially", working together is what God commands and how the church functions and edifies one another in Christ. But again this is not just for "elders". What elders do and do not do is another long thread and important discussion. They do not exalt themselves over all or control everything or quench the spirit in any other, as we see in God's order as revelaed in scripture as well.

Exactly. Having people in particular leadership roles does not exclude the contributions of others.

It often does the way the man made order is set up today . They often are in a controlling dominating place over all. It is even written in their man made Bi-laws that they have this power and control.

The word "Leadership" is not found in the New Testament. And the word leaders is sometimes seen in a negative way. Believers are to all be led by the Spirit in all things and when a man speaks as the oracles of God the believers will hear Christ in them. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. They have no need that any MAN teach them for the anointing teacheth them all things and God works in them to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work working in them that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ. Christ Himself leads the body as the head of the church and works effectually in the measure of every part.

We must not walk in the carnal mind or mans wisdom and hear many different voices that speak mans traditions and commands that make the word of God of no effect and that can hinder the body function and quench the spirit.

"For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. 17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly."

“Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

Jesus often rebuked the false religious leaders of the people as hypocrites of his time and warned of their errors often. Im;less we are led of the Spirit we cannot see anything (1 Cor 2)

I have found that those who are in this man made position over all often act as though they are more important than others and look down on any who do not see them as superior.
I have heard some of them boast over the body saying they have a "masters degree" as they call it (even though Jesus said call no man master) and others don't have this, so they are the ones who should be listened to over those who don't etc etc.
I have even heard one so called "Pastor" over all say that he is the head of the church and he rejected scriptures I showed in front of all where the church as a body makes decisions, he said, "we don't do that here , I am the head of the church". He also had no elders for 30 years there. The stories and situations of what I have seen among these so called "pastors" is too long to discuss here. But they have often exclude others from free ministry in Christ as they are led. The few that may "allow" some edification under their tight control, only limit comments or what is said to their specific liking and often cut off the word coming forth from others..

so instead, this is the way

“Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.” (Psalm 27:11)

“Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.” (Psalm 143:10)

“He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.” (Isaiah 40:11)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)

“If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Galatians 5:25)

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." ( 1 Corinthians 12"7-11)

It seems to me that to insist that each should be permitted to contribute as they are gifted and called, except women who must be limited in certain ways, is highly inconsistent.

If you read what I posted, I showed many things women can do in the gatherings. There are whole groups out there that allow no women to speak at all. I do not see that in scripture. They are wrong in that order. But there are other groups that allow women to speak in any way and disregard or try hard to make certain scriptures loose their meaning about the God given limits to certain ministration. I define these clearly in the discussion I posted about women's roles. Too long to get into here. These understandings have come to me over many years and working in home meetings for about 18 years. I don't speak of things I have not seen and understood in my experience and revelation from God. Yes, I am always willing to be corrected and to see things differently. But when I first was a believer I wanted women to be able to do all things men do in the gatherings, I was troubled when God started showing me some limitations. But I have come to see the great love and wisdom in what God has shown in his order and many of the blessed sisters in the meetings saw this as well. I have met some of the most godly and gracious and wonderful women in the churches that gather in the homes around Christ.
And yes, their life in Christ extends to their whole life not just the gatherings. But in the gatherings and as we minister and function and fellowship in Christ I have seen such tender and gracious sisters . The tension comes when some follow man made order and todays understanding of things and apparent so called "freedom". The truth makes us free in Christ . That is the freedom. And in Christ as we minister and live thee is neither male nor female. But in the physical there is and we must reflect truth in both spheres. And I have met some women that know the scriptures so well and better than some men. But they also have yielded to Gods order in the gatherings. They will always have areas where Gd will use them mightily

It is not inconsistent for some to have different functions or offices in the body. We read of elders for example and not all are elders. We read of apostles and prophets, not all are apostles or prophets. They each can function in the office (function) that God gives.

My point is simply that in order for such processes to be orderly and constructive,

The order that man seeks to (construct) or build is often not God;s oder or edifying (building up as a house builder). Jesus said he would build His church and he does that if we walk in the spirit and allow Christ to work in us and effectually work in the measure of every part (Ephesians 3:15,16). This is how the body increases and grows up into Him and edifies one another. Anything or anyone that spoils or robs the believers of this work hinders and quenches the body. It seems that the one man or woman ministry over all can do this . Paul warns of this and reminds the believers that they are complete in Christ who is the head.

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:..." (Colossians 2"8-10)

usually someone must lead or facilitate, whether formally or informally, and this is not wrong but is also a gift.

Let Christ back in to lead His church. He will work in certain parts to do what is needed and eventually elders will be manifest who are known by their labouring. This work they do is as they walk in the spirit and are led by Christ and made perfect unto every good work by Him. If they are not allowed to minister freely as God leads then they will not be known as easily.

"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves." (1 Thess. 5:12,13)

This order Peter also understood and commanded.

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Peter 4"10.11)

It is not "someone" leading over all, this can and does hinder the body ministering. Yes mature elders will often share and feed and warn the unruly and set in order things after Gods order. But this is not to hinder the body ministry as often happens today.

Here are some quotes from the man made BY-laws in these gatherings. These vary in part in different places, but this is the laws of man that quench the spirit in the body often.

“The pastor shall be the spiritual overseer of the assembly and of all it’s activities” and that ,

“the pastor has freedom of the pulpit” ( Article IV section 1, C)

And in the PAOC Church Constitution it states, in By-Law II, section 1, of the pastor that;

“he shall provide for all the services of the assembly, no person shall be invited to speak or to preach in the assembly without his approval”

And in By-law V section 2 of the PAOC Local Church Constitution we read;

“no member or any number of members shall call any private, secret or business or devotional meetings without the knowledge and consent of the Board and the Pastor”

These similar principles apply to all those associated with the Pentecostal assemblies, yet these so called By-Laws go against the scriptures of truth and make the word of God of no effect. They hinder the free ministry of the saints and Christ’s headship among them. This man called “THE” Pastor, does not fit into the biblical role, and is more like a “Pope” with similar power, and like the Gentile rule that Jesus said we are not to have (Matthew 20:25-27). Here is an example of the Pope’s power which a lot of today’s ministry stems from;

“The Roman Pontiff...as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme, and universal power over the entire church.” (#882 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church). He is also said to be the head (#883).

 

[Paidiske]

but I would need to hear from you how you think (with scriptural evidence) how the pastor gift functions as we see it today on most assemblies, where the one gift is made into a title role and that person is over all exalted often above all

I think this is simply untrue. That's not "how we see it today." It's a misrepresentation of the reality.

Having rules that say, for example, you don't work in secret behind the backs of your board, is not quenching people's ability to participate. It's just making sure that it's being done in an open and transparent way.

If you read what I posted, I showed many things women can do in the gatherings. There are whole groups out there that allow no women to speak at all. I do not see that in scripture. They are wrong in that order. But there are other groups that allow women to speak in any way and disregard or try hard to make certain scriptures loose their meaning about the God given limits to certain ministration. I define these clearly in the discussion I posted about women's roles.

My point stands. I think your position is deeply inconsistent. If participation in the body ought to be according to gifting and calling (which I agree with), then it should be so for everyone, including women.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I think this is simply untrue. That's not "how we see it today." It's a misrepresentation of the reality.

I asked you this,

"I would need to hear from you how you think (with scriptural evidence) how the pastor gift functions as we see it today on most assemblies, where the one gift is made into a title role and that person is over all exalted often above all"

and you replied as you did. I was waiting for scripture of how you see the pastor role functioning from scripture, and as it is today where the "pastor" has supreme authority over all and runs everything ( even if he has the so called "support of the Board or elders".

It is not a misrepresentation of reality.

I quoted from man made By-Laws for some assemblies and this was ignored. It states in many so called By-Laws exactly what I am warning against.

“The pastor shall be the spiritual overseer of the assembly and of all it’s activities” and that ,

“the pastor has freedom of the pulpit” ( Article IV section 1, C)

And in the PAOC Church Constitution it states, in By-Law II, section 1, of the pastor that;

“he shall provide for all the services of the assembly, no person shall be invited to speak or to preach in the assembly without his approval”

And in By-law V section 2 of the PAOC Local Church Constitution we read;

“no member or any number of members shall call any private, secret or business or devotional meetings without the knowledge and consent of the Board and the Pastor”


But to comment on these things here are some thoughts,


REASONS FOR REJECTING THESE MAN-MADE LAWS

• First of all, the Bible does not set up a one man pastor ministry, yet the constitution sets him up alone under the “Ministry” section on pg. 8. I repeat, THE PASTOR IS SET UP AS THE ONE MAN MINISTRY UNDER THE MINISTRY SECTION ON PG, 8 WHICH IS UNBIBLICAL. God, however, gave gifts unto men calling some, “apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11), and not just a “one man pastor”. So, here, the constitution confuses the saints because it goes against the word of God making it of no effect. Beware!

• If the pastor is over “the assembly and all of it’s activities” (Article IV section 1), then the saints are not totally free to let God direct them in their gifts and ministries and to let God be the author of the meetings, who gives to every man “severally as he will”(1 Cor. 12;11). God should direct all the activities and the saints should wait on God. Overseers (in the plural) watch over the flock , not just one man. They, however, do not lord over the flock, but should encourage men to use what God has given them, 1 Peter 4:10, 11. But, often the one man ministry lords over all activities, and others are intimidated and quenched and are not aware of the biblical freedoms God commands and allows. I think some ministers prefer that others are not aware of their freedoms in Christ, sadly. BEWARE!

• A pastor should not be the only one to “provide for all the services of the assembly” when we gather together (By-Law II section 1, PAOC). The scriptures say that through Christ as the head, “every joint supplies” (Ephesians 4:16). “And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee” (1 Cor. 12:21). But, contrary to this, many are treated in the assembly as if they were not needed, or as if anything they had to say the pastor would say eventually. This is wrong. BEWARE!

• What if an evil man got into the oversight and no one could exhort him or speak freely in the assembly, and what if he had the power to stop others from speaking or from exposing him? Remember the past Popes, and read 3 John 9 about a man named Diotrephes. He loved to have the preeminence and cast some out of the church. John warns the saints not to follow this kind of evil man. So again we must BEWARE!

• In the Churches Constitution, Article IV, C., The Pastor, alone, has “freedom of the pulpit”. This goes against the freedoms that all the saints are allowed in the church. For all are to have freedom to edify one another, and use their gifts, anytime (1 Corinthians 14:26-30, Romans 12:1-8), and to exhort one another, (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 3:13). All can speak and minister as God gives grace and ability ( 1 Peter 4:10,11), and every joint is to supply, (Ephesians 4:16), and there is need of more than just pastors ( Ephesians 4:11). The body is also able to teach and admonish one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, (Colossians 3:16). So then, if this pulpit ministry hinders us, we should remove the pulpit, and the false one man ministry that is set up. Even this thing called ºthe “altar” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, and is a high place to be removed. Again, the word of God is made of no effect by these constitutional laws which don’t give freedom but rather bondage, BEWARE!

• The constitution talks of “THE” pastor in the singular, but there are a few pastors (so called) at the church. So are these other men not really pastors? And what about the apostles, prophets, evangelist, teachers, and all other offices? Why are they not included? Every joint must supply. The pastor cannot do all this, and he is not “THE” only one who is to minister. But, he is set up as a one man ministry in the constitution. BEWARE!


• Where in the Bible is it necessary for the saints to get permission from “THE” pastor to gather together and pray or to have devotional meetings, as in By-Law V PAOC? But, we can see how this would tighten their preeminent role. BEWARE!


• Where do we see in the scriptures, a pastor being given such worldly titles as “Chairman of the Deacon Board” (Article IV B of the churches), or “ex officio”? We read of other worldly rudiments in the constitution such as, President, Treasurer, Secretary, elections, etc. This sounds again, of gentile dominion, (Matthew 20:25-27) and worldly rudiments. BEWARE!


• In Article IV section D of the Local Church Constitution, we see that “The Pastor shall be responsible for the selection of and hiring of all staff members and employees”. Whatever happened to “it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us” (Acts 15:28). And where do we see pastors hiring people in the Bible? Many may be forced to be men pleasers of the Pastor to keep their job, but as Paul said, “if we should seek to please men we should not be the servants of Christ”. BEWARE!


So it is true. And what we see today is like this exactly. Please tell me FROM scripture where you see what the pastor does today in many assemblies. I eagerly wait for this scriptural evidence. You wont find it though. The word "pastors" is found only one place in the King James Bible in Ephesians among other gifts.

So as I said this is true today

"There is a man today who is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform in certain gatherings. He is the one who dominates most of the speaking week after week. Often he has a special chair reserved for him, usually on the stage, and no one is allowed to sit there but him. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure with lower ranked servants under him and has a sign outside with his name on it. Usually he is the only on who greets people at the door with a handshake as they leave the show. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend” “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”

Almost all of the activities in the gatherings are controlled by him, and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. But, there is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the gatherings, rather than wait on God.


The position that he holds is unbiblical, but sadly, the people love to have it so. This man is known today as “THE PASTOR”, and he reigns as a king over the body of Christ. His position as head can usurp the headship of Christ in the meetings and hinder the priesthood of all believers. These things are serious and should not be taken lightly as I fear many will do. Paul warned us of such things and said, “Beware, lest any man spoil you” Col. 2:8. The word”spoil” means,” to rob you of your goods”.

Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, and they may be loving christians; the dominant role of THE Pastor today does not exist biblically and is quite different. This Pope-like figure comes out of the worldly traditions of men, a false Roman Catholic heirarcy and misunderstanding of Christ headship in the body ministry.


His very function often quenches the Spirit in the rest of the body from edifying one another and from waiting on Christ leading to minister. And sadly, the system he rules in can create a weak, dysfunctional, pew warming body that plays church. I write this in love to your soul."

and

In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking into a large building with a denominational name, called a “church”, and everything that is on man’s programned order, from the Pastor’s role over all that often quenches the spirit in others, to their “services” that do not allow the body to minister freely, with the pastors sermon, the pulpit, worship leaders, women leaders, false authority, collections, constitutional laws of man, ushers, theatre type environment, salaried ministers, tithing, tax exemption rules, altars, rituals, exalted priest, the silent body ministry, show time religion, no consensus decisions and many more, are all based on the traditions of men and not after Christ.

I could prove even further what I say by looking at hundreds of so called _By'Laws) like for example

Baptist about the Pastor (under Church ministries we read

"Church ministries will function much the same as they always have, with each ministry area having a leader and team members reporting to that leader. However, church board meetings will consist of only the elders. This satisfies the corporate requirements while also being in line with our church being an elder-led church."

and another By-Law about the pastor we read

Clause 4. As an Under-shepherd, the senior pastor is therefore responsible to shepherd the flock. ...he is responsible to superintend all the work of the church ... he is responsible to lead the services of the church and to officiate or act as moderator in the business meetings of the church ... he is responsible to instruct the church ...he is responsible to uncompromisingly "preach the Word".... Further duties of the Pastor shall be to administer the ordinances and promote the spiritual welfare of the church. He shall make a report of the year's work at the annual business meeting of the church. He shall be an Ex officio member of all committees. This means he is automatically a member of all committees with the privilege of voting if he desires."

Lutherin sample By-Laws about the Pastor

To guard and promote faithfully the spiritual welfare of the members of this congregation, in particular to instruct the catechumens, both children and adults, in the Word of God and thus prepare them for communicant membership in the church; To guide the congregation in applying the divinely ordained discipline of the church according to the Word of God; To promote and guide the mission activity of the congregation as it is related to the local community and to endeavours of the Synod, in particular to train workers and guide them in evangelism and to enlist the support of the congregation for mission work; T

These By-Laws can be shown to be in error in God;s order and according to scripture. Some of the verses some try to use to justify this one man exalted ministry over all with total control and absolute authority are wrong and would take a long time to correct here.

I could go on and on all day showing the truth of what I say in man made By-Laws from many assemblies. But that should suffice for now to show I am not speaking any untruth here, or overcharging any. If i was to go onto hundreds of various denominations and I had a film crew to show the order you would see they are for the most part dominated and controlled by the exalted one man called the pastor, even if they have some elders under him and a so called "board". This should be obvious to all the unbiased readers.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Having rules that say, for example, you don't work in secret behind the backs of your board, is not quenching people's ability to participate.

Yes it is. where in scripture do we read that the believers need to not be able to call a prayer meeting with others unless they get the approval of the one exalted man called the pastor, or some man made Board?

In fact in the gatherings all can prophesy and have a revelation as God leads, not mans leading or approval. as we read in scripture (1 Cor. 14)

and we see others evangelising and instructing people in the way of the Lord as they used their gift from God and didn't need the approval of men to do so. Imagine the prophets of old and today only needing the approval of the leaders to rebuke Israel or others. They would all be shut up from speaking. Which ne of the prophets haven't been persecuted by those they spoke to? In my experience so called leaders and those in sin don't ask any to rebuke and warn them. They usually try to silence them.

And yes the body is quenched when the gather by the order of man they have adopted. None are free to use their gifts any time as they are led and this is also written in their man made By-laws. All is contrary to the clear scriptures commanding the free flow Of Gods Spirit in the body and the effectual working of Christ in every part to the mutual edification of the body.

and to have "rules that say". If these "rules" are man made commandments then they are quenching and to be warned against as scripture shows to rebuke sharply those teaching commandments of men and espescially when they make the word of God of no effect and God's order is replaced by man made traditions and By-Laws and rudiments of the world

"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth" (Titus 1:13, 14 KJV)

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. " (Matthew 15:9)

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." ( Colossians 2:8 KJV)

It's just making sure that it's being done in an open and transparent way.

Elders and all the body can comment on the order and set things in God's order and remind others of Gods commands for this order. But that doesn't mean that a pastor gift should have the exalted control over all as we see today almost everywhere.

My point stands. I think your position is deeply inconsistent. If participation in the body ought to be according to gifting and calling (which I agree with), then it should be so for everyone, including women.

No it does not stand. I showed clearly that woman can function in mighty ways in the gatherings and have gifts and revelation, prayer , prophecy, spiritual songs,. But there is the oversight that they should not be in as scripture shows. Just as not all are given certain functions in the home and not all have the same function. There are certain functions and gifts, in the body that are particular to some and not all.

For example if a brother is given an apostolic gift and another is given a teacher gift, they are not the same gifts and a man should not go beyond what God has given. Elders are a biblical function and as Overseer/elders, they do meet certain requirements given by God for that function as we read in Timothy. But even before they are recognized in that function they will do the work of overseeing as gifted by the Holy Ghost (Acts 20) and the body will recognize them as they are allowed to function.

Paul would leave assemblies for a long time with no elders then come back much later and he and Timothy with the body would recognize them, and see the ones that God had gifted. Elders in a new meeting are not there at first, they need to mature in Christ.

My teaching from scripture and showing God's order, setting things in order is not at all inconsistent. Not even in the least.

 

[Paidiske]

I asked you this,

"I would need to hear from you how you think (with scriptural evidence) how the pastor gift functions as we see it today on most assemblies, where the one gift is made into a title role and that person is over all exalted often above all"

and you replied as you did.

Yes. Because your question assumed something I saw as completely untrue, so there was no good way to answer it.

I was waiting for scripture of how you see the pastor role functioning from scripture, and as it is today where the "pastor" has supreme authority over all and runs everything ( even if he has the so called "support of the Board or elders".

You see? You've done it again. Pastors don't, generally, have "supreme authority over all." So I reject the question, because it is based on a false premise.

• What if an evil man got into the oversight and no one could exhort him or speak freely in the assembly, and what if he had the power to stop others from speaking or from exposing him?

Everybody in ministry should be accountable to an authority who can address these issues. In my church, that's the bishop, in other churches there are other structures; but ministry without accountability is downright dangerous.

• In the Churches Constitution, Article IV, C., The Pastor, alone, has “freedom of the pulpit”. This goes against the freedoms that all the saints are allowed in the church. For all are to have freedom to edify one another, and use their gifts, anytime (1 Corinthians 14:26-30, Romans 12:1-8), and to exhort one another, (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 3:13).

It's as if you think people can't edify or exhort or otherwise use their gifts if someone is designated to have oversight of the pulpit, which I find a very strange position. Of course they can, and do.

Please tell me FROM scripture where you see what the pastor does today in many assemblies.

I reject what you're describing as the reality. So your question is meaningless.

Yes it is. where in scripture do we read that the believers need to not be able to call a prayer meeting with others unless they get the approval of the one exalted man called the pastor, or some man made Board?

Let me turn that question around; where in Scripture do we read that the believers ought to deliberately deceive their elders and leaders in order to meet in secret?

Any healthy elder or leader is not going to seek to hinder such a thing unless there is some serious issue; but keeping things transparent makes sure that any issues which arise can be addressed.

I showed clearly that woman can function in mighty ways in the gatherings and have gifts and revelation, prayer , prophecy, spiritual songs,. But there is the oversight that they should not be in as scripture shows.

So everyone should be "free to use their gifts any time as they are led," except women. Gotcha. And I'm supposed to believe that's not inconsistent.

Your posts are coming across more and more as just a personal gripe that "I don't get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, without any accountability," rather than a coherent argument.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes. Because your question assumed something I saw as completely untrue, so there was no good way to answer it.

My question was not untrue. I gave evidence from scripture and many man made By-Laws (commandments of men) to prove it.

But, My question is simple, can you show me your understanding of what the one gift of many, being the pastor gift is to function in the New Testament church? This is a simple request. I know the word pastors in the plural is only found once in the New testament ( KJV), and we read nowhere that that gift is the way it is understood by many if not most today.

I will clarify the question and make it without any comment.

Can you show your understanding from scripture the pastor gift in its function in the New testamet church. I look carefully for any scripture you give. I look for the word "pastor" especially.

You see? You've done it again. Pastors don't, generally, have "supreme authority over all." So I reject the question, because it is based on a false premise.

Well, just denying it does not make it so.

I know that if you are to agree with the scriptures I show and the evidence I give from 40 years of visiting many assemblies and denominations and seeing that the one man pastor over all is the main order in most churches, but Im will not sure you would believe even that. But I also proved this by a small sample of the man made commandments (By-Laws) that make the word of God of no effect. I could find hundreds of man made commandments from all denominations about their so called "By-Laws" that go against the order from scripture, but Im not sure if you would see this though.

I have seen in some denominations of man that the one man over all called the "Pastor" has supreme authority and the body ministry is hindered and I have been told so by them as well and by others.

I have had these men say that the church is their church and told me to go start another church when I showed them correction by scripture.

I have had members say that "if the pastor says it his word is law",

Some even said they are the head of the church and they don't care what the scriptures say.

Some have attacked me physically when they could not withstand the scriptural correction and got in a red face craze in front of their assemblies to their shame and reproach.

I have been attacked, spit on, physically assaulted, clothes ripped, lifted in the air more than once, pushed etc etc. And all because one man dominated over all and abused his place and acted like a Lord over the flock. This is just a small sample of what these exalted men over all called the "Pastor" have done. Yes, there are many godly men in this role today even if they are hindering the body. But when they hear the truth they should change and get a job and let Christ back in His church to function in all parts. I have met some of these ex so called pastors who left the whole show and began to work with brothers and sister in home meetings. They are godly wonderful men who walk in the grace and humility of God.

My "premise" is the word of God and the holy scriptures. I base all this order on Gods order for the church as seen in scripture. I have not me t one so called pastor for 40 years that has been able to deny the clear scriptures I give. They will either make me the object of controversy to avoid dealing with things and change all, or attack me verbally or just ignore me, some will get violent in order to try and silence the truth. It is very sad and one day they will give an account. God will reward every man according to his deeds.

I know what I share is radical life changing for the entire order in churches. But we must let everything that can be shaken be shaken so all we see is the glorious image of Christ.

Everybody in ministry should be accountable to an authority who can address these issues.

You say "an" authority. This is your chief error in these things. Christ is the head of the church and he alone gives authority as we live and move in him. This is seen in the body and when the gifts and the word are functioning as God wills.

But sadly today many follows the authority of the world and the rudiments of the world and not after Christ as the head. Yes elders will watch over and warn and correct, but any brother can do this as well.

Consider seriously what Jesus meant by this,

"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all." (Mark 10:42-44)

Why did Jesus say that? Do you see the danger he is warning about? Yet, so many today have a similar authority understanding.

Remember. the false religious men who were not in the spiritual authority and life of God challenged Jesus about his authority (as some do to the body of Christ who function in Christ today)

they asked Jesus

“And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?”(Luke 20:2)

Jesus didn't have earthly authority as a king or Pharisee or High Priest etc. They didn't see him in mans authority and tried to silence him. He exposed them in this by asking what authority John had. John was from the outside of the Pharisees understanding as Jesus was and as all believers are in Christ to those who trust in mans authority. The talk of mans authority and spiritual authority is a long one for another time perhaps. But very important.

Jesus also gave power (authority) to cast out devils. One time some tried to cast out devils in the name of Jesus whom Paul preached but the devils attacked them. They did no have the true spiritual authority. They had to actually be in Christ and have Christ working in them to have real spiritual power.

In my church, that's the bishop, in other churches there are other structures; but ministry without accountability is downright dangerous.

In the scriptures all are part of consensus in many matters. Even when the whole body functions and uses their gifts and edifies one another. This is not directed by a man, but by God. Yes God has set order in this gathering as we read in 1 Cor and other places. But the elders who watch over and feed often are not to think of themselves more highly than they ought to, or dominate or control everything as the One man pastor gift does in many assemblies.

The submission is the whole body submitting to one another and yes all should submit to the mature brothers only as they walk in the spirit and speak the word of God and are examples, not lords over all. It is a subtle difference between overseeing and lording over. But it is an important one.

If all are not accountable to the scriptures or God's order that is a dangerous thing. I have seen so many so called pastors and elders who utterly reject avoid, distort and deny the clear scriptures to correct this order they are in. That is dangerous.

God is not the author of confusion, he is well able to lead the church if we let him and all are taught to wait on the Lord and in godly fear and humility to consider others better than themselves.

This one anothering in scripture is soo clear to the unbiased reader

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:" (Ephesians 5:21-23)

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. " (1 Thess. 5:11)

we read in scripture of the whole church making decisions and prophets speaking and others judging and setting the least in the church to judge certain matters etc. Much different than todays man made restrictions of the gifts and mnistry.

a clarification...

If you don't see what I am saying, here is a simple thing to consider.

Lets say I visited your gathering and after a time weeks or months many go to know me as a true believer and knew me and then one day I was to sit there (most likely facing forward) looking to an altar or platform whee the minister (possibly you) was standing over me talking and I was only seeing the back of others heads. And imagine you gave out a thing called a "program", (not sure if you have this but millions do). This program first of all. is man made and quenches the body ministry and has a tight time frame and Christ is most likely not on the "man made programmed order", nor is any other parts of the body, but those designated by the so called Pastor etc. This program alone hinders the body ministry and its a tight schedule for the second show at 11 in many assemblies, so all has to go by a pre arranged order.

Then assume I had a revelation or a doctrine or a testimony to share and the place was in a silent place and I stood up and began to share. What would happen? what would you do?. And assume I began to do this weekly and others were also stirred in spirit to minister and eventually they also got up. What would you do? how could you correct them if what they were speaking was not too long and edified others and was a gift they shared? This would be the test.

I have had this happen many times and they one man pastor tries to stop it eventually and abuses his place often. I have even written to churches and been kicked out. I have met this man who is like Diotrephes in scripture many times.

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil...{(3 John 9-11 KJV)

Why do you think John wrote this?

and paul said similar warnings in Acts 20 about men rising up among them and drawing away disciples after themselves. He warned of this for three years wth tears. It seems very important. Also Paul said.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;..." ( Romans 12"3-6 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

It's as if you think people can't edify or exhort or otherwise use their gifts if someone is designated to have oversight of the pulpit, which I find a very strange position. Of course they can, and do.

it even says in many so called By-Laws that they cant do that unless the pastor approves. And from my experience none can get up and share a doctrine or revelation or prophecy or teaching testimaony etc on a regular basis without this so called Pastor stopping them or holding a thick spiritual chain on them. This is not he bidt ministry if all are afraid to speak and they are not on the so called "program".

Just see if some in your assembly were to get up and share a doctrine or revelation how you would feel and what you would do and this started to happen among the entire body what would you do.? What would you do if your programme was not done and the time went longer than the slotted pre arranged time schedule of spirit quenching man made order?

I reject what you're describing as the reality. So your question is meaningless.

I asked for scripture showing your understanding in your order of the pastor gift from scripture. I also proved by a small sample of man made By-laws that many do not have Gods order as seen in scripture and the one man does dominate. But you seemed to ignore that part.

I can show scripture that commands the body to be allowed to edify one another and function using their gifts every time they gather. But you may not see that or that these verses do not speak of a person over all called the pastor with such power as they have today. The body if often quenched. We are warned to quench not the spirit.

Let me turn that question around; where in Scripture do we read that the believers ought to deliberately deceive their elders and leaders in order to meet in secret?

what?, I spoke of no deceiving. I was showing that for any man made By-Law to say that they cannot gather for prayer together without the pastors approval was wrong. We see no such scripture. There would be no deceiving if they simply got together with other brothers and sister for prayer and felllowship. To have to give account to a person over them for prayer and fellowship and getting together with other brothers to a pastor over all is nowhere found in scripture. In fact Jesus said where two or more are gathered together he is in the midst.

Any healthy elder or leader is not going to seek to hinder such a thing unless there is some serious issue;

its never one elder as you seem to say when you use the singular elder, its always plural elders in scripture and they also work with their own hands to not be chargable to others. Traveling itinerant apostolic workers or evangelist etc can receive some help for the work but elders local should work. As we see in scripture, plural working elders.

But as far as the pastor hindering the body ministry this is a fact in almost every assembly as i have been showing from scripture that they do not allow and from their man made By-Laws and programs etc. The tight time frames they have for their show to go on with a few songs announcements the so called "sermon", then a few songs while collections are made and a last talk before the people are "dismissed" and they shake the pastors hand at the door. Its all unbiblical and hindering to the body. This quenches the spirit in the body and the person over all this is the one man called the pastor, ( possibly with a few elders under him) all unbiblical and easy shown to be false from scripture.

The "serious Issue", is the function and role of the one person called the Pastor who alone has freedom of the pulpit and is the one mentioned in the ministry section with all the functions alotted to him that are not found in scripture for one pastor over all.

In a health church which meets in homes around Christ and where all are bearing one anothers burdens and excited to hear Chris in the midst and where elder watch over and feed and encoucrage others to walk in their gifts as Peter did (1 Peter 4:19,11) and paul did ( 1 Cor 14:26-37, Romans 12:1-8, 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Cor 12, Ephesians 4:10-16, Colossians 3:15:16, etc etc).

The serious issue is when Christ is outside knocking and wanting to come INTO them and sup with them, but they think all is good and they are rich and increased with good and need nothing , but are unaware of their dangerous serious state.

but keeping things transparent makes sure that any issues which arise can be addressed.

It is not transparent when the ine man pastor has control over all and none are free to minister or pray or gather unless this person has approval. Thats not biblical.

So everyone should be "free to use their gifts any time as they are led," except women. Gotcha. And I'm supposed to believe that's not inconsistent.

I already addressed Gods order in this, there are many scriptures to prove this very very clearly. But I know the modern world has a hard time with Gods order in these things.

God will make room for any with gifts he gives. But he will not contradict his commands already given.

Your posts are coming across more and more as just a personal gripe that "I don't get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, without any accountability," rather than a coherent argument.

False, 100 percent.

I never seek to do what I want. i only seek to follow the Lord and I have even left meetings in churches in the homes that I helped plant so that others will not look too much to me and the body can function together. And In a healthy church meeting in the homes God always makes room for the things I have been given to share in His time. And the others there have room also.

I have noticed that when i share with some of the so called "Pastors" the truth from scripture about body ministry and God;s order they will get threatened and often attack me personally trying to make me the object of controversy instead of following Gods order as clearly seen and commanded in scripture. This is wrong and if they can make me seem like I am arrogant or how dare I question any in a role over all, then they try to speak maliciously about me and sway others away from what I share from scripture before the Lord. Read 3 John 9, 10 again. I have sen this often and met this person in a spiritual sense often...sadly. I would ask is it because I love you not? God knoweth, or am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I know fully how serious and radically changing what i share is. But I have seen the wonderful fruits of it for years and many blessed saints who had sat inactive for years under the Lords and exa;ted people over them who hindered them and quenched them in their gifts, finally they began to minister and flowered and became wonderful in their part of the body and edified many.

For any so called Pastor to believe the scriptures and truths i share they would eventually have to step down from their high place, and gather with the body as one of the body waiting on the Lord as all do. If they are in Gods order and recognized as a biblical elder with certain gifts that is only seen in time. The buildings would have to either be sold and distributed to the body there or the poor or reconverted to be used as places for the poor and possibly evangelism to bring others to Christ and eventually to gather in the many home meetings that have been set up. These things are very difficult to achieve as many rely totally on the money and building to maintain their place and the denominational status.

But follow Christ above all....

I am not a angry person with a gripe as you try to say. But I have seen the danger the sheep are in and they need to be rescued from the situation and from some who Lord over them. Paul did similar in 2 Cor 11.

and when you say that you think I am saying ""I don't get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, without any accountability," ". This is false, all in the body should not seek to do what they want, or when they want with no accountability. I see the one Pastor over all in this place, they seem to think they can do whatever they want when they want with no accountablity to the body they Lord over or accountable to scripture. Do you think you can just make up a "sermon" as you want or what you decide to share every week and not allow the body to minister and to put it in a program ( assuming you have programs as many do), do you feel that you can do this whenever you want> ir do you have to get another to examine your pre arranged sermon before you share it and who are you accountable for every word that you speak? If you say there is an outside bishop who you are accountable to, that does not line up with scripture. The entire body has to function among themselves and submit to one another . What if a brother has an issue with you and tries to tlk to you about something you said or did and you take them into your "office" and will not repent pr change any thing you might have dne because you are not going to let him tell you any correction. Then he tries to follow Matthew 18 and bring another brother but you eventually just get irritated by them and they get no progress with you and you don't change. Then will you follow Matthew 18 command and bring it before the church and allow the brothers to share what they have issue with you abut?

What if they simply come into you and show you that you are hindering the body ministry and no following the commands of 1 Cor 14, will this ever be able to happen before all and where the whole body has input as Christ commanded?

 

[PloverWing]

If you don't see what I am saying, here is a simple thing to consider.

Lets say I visited your gathering and after a time weeks or months many go to know me asa true believer and knew me and then one day I was to sit there (most likely facing forward) looking to an altar or platform whee the minister (possibly you) was standing over me talking and i was only seeing the back of others heads. And imagine you gave out a thing called a "program", (not sure if you have this but millions do). This program first of all is man made and quenches the body ministry and has a tight time frame and Christ is most likely not on the "man made programmed order", nor is any other parts of the body, but those designated by the so called Pastor etc. This program alone hinders the body ministry and its a tight schedule for the second show at 11 in many assemblies, so all has to go by a pre arranged order.

Then assume I had a revelation or a doctrine or a testimony to share and the place was in a silent place and I stood up and began to share. What would happen? what would you do?. And assume I began to do this weekly and others were also stirred in spirit to minister and eventually they also got up. What would you do? how could you correct them if what they were speaking was not too long and edified others and was a gift they shared? This would be the test.

Thanks for the thought experiment. It gives me something concrete to address.

From my point of view, you're proposing to interrupt the Sunday liturgy -- our congregational act of worship, which is an offering we make to God -- by standing up and talking for a few minutes in the middle of it. You said you'd wait for a "silent place", so I assume that means you wouldn't interrupt the hymns or the prayers or the Scripture readings. But the silences in the liturgy have their purposes too; they are times of sitting in God's presence without the intrusion of words. So I also hope you wouldn't interrupt that either.

If you did indeed spend weeks or months worshipping with us, you would presumably come to understand that the structure of our liturgy is what enables us to worship together, as a group, instead of just listening to somebody talk. Here is the place in our worship where we chant the Psalm together. Here is the place where we sing 'Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might". Here is the place where we gather to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord. Having this structure, instead of chaos, helps us act as a group instead of simply as separate individuals, and -- really! -- helps us be active participants instead of passive listeners.

Now, you do have a point that it's good for individual members of the congregation to be able to voice their own thoughts to the group. If you wanted to do that in our church, I'd recommend talking to the priest and wardens and vestry (that's our "elders") first. We'd be open to adding an extra service or gathering or discussion group at some point in the week in which individual members bring their own thoughts and testimonies and ideas for ministry. We've had good discussion groups in the past; this could be another. We could easily incorporate something like Evening Prayer, if you wanted to make it a combination of discussion and worship. A communal meal could be part of this as well. In fact, on reflection, one of the parishes near us holds "Dinner Church" on a regular basis, and it's much like we're describing here -- a meal, and discussion, and worship.

So, there really are places in the life of the church for informal conversations like this. I'm happy to see this as part of a church's regular gatherings. I'm just wary of having this replace the Sunday morning Eucharistic Liturgy, because that's something that's very important to us those of us who are liturgical Christians.

 

[Paidiske]

My question was not untrue.

Hmm. Whom shall I believe; my own lived experience, of the accusations of some random person on the internet?

But, My question is simple, can you show me your understanding of what the one gift of many, being the pastor gift is to function in the New Testament church?

It is - along with others such as apostles, prophets and evangelists - to equip the saints for the work of ministry, and to build up the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:12).

The New Testament does not specify how this is to be done, although it does provide some general parameters that would apply to any ministry.

Well, just denying it does not make it so.

I am a parish priest and I don't have "supreme authority over all." I work collaboratively with the congregation and various different people in different roles. Our pew sheet - a document we prepare each week with various pieces of information - quite literally says, above the contact details for people with various responsibilities: "Ministers: The Parishioners." Your claim is false.

I am not saying that nobody is spiritually abusive. Some are; by all means call them out. But that doesn't make your claim generally true.

You say "an" authority. This is your chief error in these things. Christ is the head of the church and he alone gives authority as we live and move in him.

And yet we must have accountability structures within the body as well. If for no other reason than that sometimes we are spectacularly bad at listening to Christ.

It is a subtle difference between overseeing and lording over. But it is an important one.

Absolutely. And that is true no matter what ministry structure one has.

Lets say I visited your gathering and after a time weeks or months many go to know me as a true believer and knew me and then one day I was to sit there (most likely facing forward) looking to an altar or platform whee the minister (possibly you) was standing over me talking and I was only seeing the back of others heads. And imagine you gave out a thing called a "program", (not sure if you have this but millions do). This program first of all. is man made and quenches the body ministry and has a tight time frame and Christ is most likely not on the "man made programmed order", nor is any other parts of the body, but those designated by the so called Pastor etc. This program alone hinders the body ministry and its a tight schedule for the second show at 11 in many assemblies, so all has to go by a pre arranged order.

Then assume I had a revelation or a doctrine or a testimony to share and the place was in a silent place and I stood up and began to share. What would happen? what would you do?. And assume I began to do this weekly and others were also stirred in spirit to minister and eventually they also got up. What would you do? how could you correct them if what they were speaking was not too long and edified others and was a gift they shared? This would be the test.

What I would do, is create space in the worship service specifically for this kind of sharing. There are various points in the service where this is appropriate and not disruptive. I would then ask you to respect the corporate worship of the gathering by sharing at the designated point, so that others can benefit from the rest of what is happening also (as @PloverWing described so well).

If it began to be that this was happening to such an extent that it was not easily contained within the liturgy, we could also look at whether creating a new worship gathering or group would better allow space for such sharing to flourish.

You see? There is no need to squash or quench or hinder. Rather a good pastor will equip and enable and encourage, and find ways for the gifts of all to be used to edify the whole.

it even says in many so called By-Laws that they cant do that unless the pastor approves.

And that is important. Because - for example - there are people who are not safe to do so. Someone whose actions and words are harmful should not be allowed to continue in that way. But the point is that the pastor's role is to nurture the potential for people to contribute from their gifts, not to hinder it.

what?, I spoke of no deceiving.

Then what's the problem with letting the pastor know?

God will make room for any with gifts he gives.

Excellent. Let's leave the idea that women are excluded, then.

The buildings would have to either be ... reconverted to be used as places for the poor and possibly evangelism to bring others to Christ

Which is what they're used for now!

Do you think you can just make up a "sermon" as you want or what you decide to share every week and not allow the body to minister and to put it in a program ( assuming you have programs as many do), do you feel that you can do this whenever you want> ir do you have to get another to examine your pre arranged sermon before you share it and who are you accountable for every word that you speak?

You may not realise this, but before taking on a role in a church, I have to give an oath - among other things - to use a form of service which my church has authorised, "and none other." So no, I don't get do do just what I want. I am accountable to the church to use the forms of worship which they have put in place. I am accountable for what I preach and can be disciplined were I to speak heresy, for example.

I am not here to rule on my own terms, but to faithfully administer what has been entrusted to me.

If you say there is an outside bishop who you are accountable to, that does not line up with scripture.

The bishop is not "outside."

What if a brother has an issue with you and tries to tlk to you about something you said or did and you take them into your "office" and will not repent pr change any thing you might have dne because you are not going to let him tell you any correction. Then he tries to follow Matthew 18 and bring another brother but you eventually just get irritated by them and they get no progress with you and you don't change. Then will you follow Matthew 18 command and bring it before the church and allow the brothers to share what they have issue with you abut?

There are processes in place by which complaints are dealt with. They differ depending on the nature of the complaint (something which is illegal, for example, is different to a question of church doctrine or order).

What if they simply come into you and show you that you are hindering the body ministry and no following the commands of 1 Cor 14, will this ever be able to happen before all and where the whole body has input as Christ commanded?

Probably not, for a variety of reasons (although if someone came to me to say that I was hindering their contribution, or someone else's, I hope I would be open to listening and responding well). But I disagree that Christ commanded it, either.

 

[The Liturgist]

it even says in many so called By-Laws that they cant do that unless the pastor approves. And from my experience none can get up and share a doctrine or revelation or prophecy or teaching testimaony etc on a regular basis without this so called Pastor stopping them or holding a thick spiritual chain on them. This is not he bidt ministry if all are afraid to speak and they are not on the so called "program".

Just see if some in your assembly were to get up and share a doctrine or revelation how you would feel and what you would do and this started to happen among the entire body what would you do.? What would you do if your programme was not done and the time went longer than the slotted pre arranged time schedule of spirit quenching man made order?

I asked for scripture showing your understanding in your order of the pastor gift from scripture. I also proved by a small sample of man made By-laws that many do not have Gods order as seen in scripture and the one man does dominate. But you seemed to ignore that part.

I can show scripture that commands the body to be allowed to edify one another and function using their gifts every time they gather. But you may not see that or that these verses do not speak of a person over all called the pastor with such power as they have today. The body if often quenched. We are warned to quench not the spirit.

what?, I spoke of no deceiving. I was showing that for any man made By-Law to say that they cannot gather for prayer together without the pastors approval was wrong. We see no such scripture. There would be no deceiving if they simply got together with other brothers and sister for prayer and felllowship. To have to give account to a person over them for prayer and fellowship and getting together with other brothers to a pastor over all is nowhere found in scripture. In fact Jesus said where two or more are gathered together he is in the midst.

its never one elder as you seem to say when you use the singular elder, its always plural elders in scripture and they also work with their own hands to not be chargable to others. Traveling itinerant apostolic workers or evangelist etc can receive some help for the work but elders local should work. As we see in scripture, plural working elders.

But as far as the pastor hindering the body ministry this is a fact in almost every assembly as i have been showing from scripture that they do not allow and from their man made By-Laws and programs etc. The tight time frames they have for their show to go on with a few songs announcements the so called "sermon", then a few songs while collections are made and a last talk before the people are "dismissed" and they shake the pastors hand at the door. Its all unbiblical and hindering to the body. This quenches the spirit in the body and the person over all this is the one man called the pastor, ( possibly with a few elders under him) all unbiblical and easy shown to be false from scripture.

The "serious Issue", is the function and role of the one person called the Pastor who alone has freedom of the pulpit and is the one mentioned in the ministry section with all the functions alotted to him that are not found in scripture for one pastor over all.

In a health church which meets in homes around Christ and where all are bearing one anothers burdens and excited to hear Chris in the midst and where elder watch over and feed and encoucrage others to walk in their gifts as Peter did (1 Peter 4:19,11) and paul did ( 1 Cor 14:26-37, Romans 12:1-8, 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Cor 12, Ephesians 4:10-16, Colossians 3:15:16, etc etc).

The serious issue is when Christ is outside knocking and wanting to come INTO them and sup with them, but they think all is good and they are rich and increased with good and need nothing , but are unaware of their dangerous serious state.



It is not transparent when the ine man pastor has control over all and none are free to minister or pray or gather unless this person has approval. Thats not biblical.

I already addressed Gods order in this, there are many scriptures to prove this very very clearly. But I know the modern world has a hard time with Gods order in these things.

God will make room for any with gifts he gives. But he will not contradict his commands already given.



False, 100 percent.

I never seek to do what I want. i only seek to follow the Lord and I have even left meetings in churches in the homes that I helped plant so that others will not look too much to me and the body can function together. And In a healthy church meeting in the homes God always makes room for the things I have been given to share in His time. And the others there have room also.

I have noticed that when i share with some of the so called "Pastors" the truth from scripture about body ministry and God;s order they will get threatened and often attack me personally trying to make me the object of controversy instead of following Gods order as clearly seen and commanded in scripture. This is wrong and if they can make me seem like I am arrogant or how dare I question any in a role over all, then they try to speak maliciously about me and sway others away from what I share from scripture before the Lord. Read 3 John 9, 10 again. I have sen this often and met this person in a spiritual sense often...sadly. I would ask is it because I love you not? God knoweth, or am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I know fully how serious and radically changing what i share is. But I have seen the wonderful fruits of it for years and many blessed saints who had sat inactive for years under the Lords and exa;ted people over them who hindered them and quenched them in their gifts, finally they began to minister and flowered and became wonderful in their part of the body and edified many.

For any so called Pastor to believe the scriptures and truths i share they would eventually have to step down from their high place, and gather with the body as one of the body waiting on the Lord as all do. If they are in Gods order and recognized as a biblical elder with certain gifts that is only seen in time. The buildings would have to either be sold and distributed to the body there or the poor or reconverted to be used as places for the poor and possibly evangelism to bring others to Christ and eventually to gather in the many home meetings that have been set up. These things are very difficult to achieve as many rely totally on the money and building to maintain their place and the denominational status.

But follow Christ above all....

I am not a angry person with a gripe as you try to say. But I have seen the danger the sheep are in and they need to be rescued from the situation and from some who Lord over them. Paul did similar in 2 Cor 11.

and when you say that you think I am saying ""I don't get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, without any accountability," ". This is false, all in the body should not seek to do what they want, or when they want with no accountability. I see the one Pastor over all in this place, they seem to think they can do whatever they want when they want with no accountablity to the body they Lord over or accountable to scripture. Do you think you can just make up a "sermon" as you want or what you decide to share every week and not allow the body to minister and to put it in a program ( assuming you have programs as many do), do you feel that you can do this whenever you want> ir do you have to get another to examine your pre arranged sermon before you share it and who are you accountable for every word that you speak? If you say there is an outside bishop who you are accountable to, that does not line up with scripture. The entire body has to function among themselves and submit to one another . What if a brother has an issue with you and tries to tlk to you about something you said or did and you take them into your "office" and will not repent pr change any thing you might have dne because you are not going to let him tell you any correction. Then he tries to follow Matthew 18 and bring another brother but you eventually just get irritated by them and they get no progress with you and you don't change. Then will you follow Matthew 18 command and bring it before the church and allow the brothers to share what they have issue with you abut?

What if they simply come into you and show you that you are hindering the body ministry and no following the commands of 1 Cor 14, will this ever be able to happen before all and where the whole body has input as Christ commanded?

The Quakers and several other groups worship in something like the way you describe, but the distinction is that they don’t spend time attacking liturgical Christians with polemics against the manner in which we believe we are called to worship. Seriously, no one on this forum would be objecting if you worshipped with one of the many groups that worships in that manner, but the problem is the relentless criticism and the derogatory statements concerning the vast majority of Christians who prefer some kind of structured worship, and in particular, for some reason, an attack on the worship of our Anglican friends.