The Passover.

Paul of Eugene OR · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
The Passover.Exodus Ch.12 As I see this God is being accused of murdering innocent Egyptian children.
I do not believe that God did this.Can we discuss?

Some deny that the children were innocent. Let us bear in mind a couple of things on that score. First, those struck dead in the story were not described as children, they were described as the first born. So only a percentage of those slain would have been children.

In the second place, some of those slain would, of necessity, be dying before the age of accountability; which means they would go to heaven on their death.

God does not view the passing of our mortal bodies as death. We all live to Him.

Even today people die as infants, as children, as new adults . . . God has a fair deal worked out for every such person. There is no problem in these deaths especially that doesn't already exist for us in terms of who is dying around the world even today.

dougangel · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
I have a few more questions for tomorrow then I will post my biggest problem,I hope that you will be able to help me with that.

Genesis 1
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

There is a order of things.

God has sovereign ruler ship over us
we rule over animals
Plants

Just like we can make life and death choices with animals.
God can make life and death choices and decisions with us as he has foreknowledge.

God’s Sovereign Choice
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one

Kenneth Watwood · Jul 5, 2017

I would like to ask more questions but about the New Testament.A lot of it beautiful but some problems.
In Matthew it gives the genealogy of Jesus but then goes on to describe the genealogy of Joseph who of course was not the father of Jesus.
Matthew Ch.5V22.Whoever is angry with his brother or calls his brother a worthless fool is in danger of going to the fire of hell.
What a drastic punishment for a minor verbal offence.
Also I don't believe in the existence of hell.
Why would God create hell?
V27.Teaching about adultery.
Admiring an attractive woman is normal physiology.
Putting the thoughts into action could be sin or even criminal Also plucking your eye out or cutting your hand off is not a Godly thing to do.
V31? I believe that there are other good reasons for divorce.
V43 Love your enemies .Does this include Hitler and his psychopathic mob?
Acts Ch.5 Ananias and Sapphira.
I think that Peter behaved in a very unchristian way.
1Timothy Ch.2 Paul says I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority on a man,she must remain silent.
I believe that God created men and women equal.
Any help please.

DamianWarS · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
God is being accused of murdering innocent Egyptian children.
I do not believe that God did this.Can we discuss?

Kenneth Watwood said:
Abraham heard voices from God telling him to murder Isaac.Would Isaac ever be able to believe that his father was sane and what would they talk about on the way home ?

Kenneth Watwood said:
I believe that God is a God of love and not the barbaric creature described in the O.T.

In the parable of the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31) Jesus shows us a extreme contrast of a wealthy man enjoying the comforts of his life and a poor man with open sores that dogs lick. Neither escapes death and in the afterlife we see their situation flipped. Jesus makes no apologies for their lot on earth nor does he talk about their faith. Typically we look at this as an example of God's love and justice but not to show he is a murderous barbarian however why should we look at the accounts of the OT any differently?

dougangel · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
In Matthew it gives the genealogy of Jesus but then goes on to describe the genealogy of Joseph who of course was not the father of Jesus.

Joseph is important with his genealogy because he was related to the patriarchs and kings. thus giving Jesus adopted kingship credentials. Not just anybody could marry Mary.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jul 5, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
And when God drowned the whole world during the time of Noah there were many innocent children as well weren't there? If anything we should see this as an act of God's mercy by making sure that those children did not grow to be like their parents or elders: God after all has children guard in the entrance to the garden of Eden and cover in the Ark of the Covenant (i.e. cherubim).

You think Keruvim are children LOL?

Norbert L · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
I would like to ask more questions but about the New Testament.A lot of it beautiful but some problems.
In Matthew it gives the genealogy of Jesus but then goes on to describe the genealogy of Joseph who of course was not the father of Jesus.
Matthew Ch.5V22.Whoever is angry with his brother or calls his brother a worthless fool is in danger of going to the fire of hell.
What a drastic punishment for a minor verbal offence.
Also I don't believe in the existence of hell.
Why would God create hell?
V27.Teaching about adultery.
Admiring an attractive woman is normal physiology.
Putting the thoughts into action could be sin or even criminal Also plucking your eye out or cutting your hand off is not a Godly thing to do.
V31? I believe that there are other good reasons for divorce.
V43 Love your enemies .Does this include Hitler and his psychopathic mob?
Acts Ch.5 Ananias and Sapphira.
I think that Peter behaved in a very unchristian way.
1Timothy Ch.2 Paul says I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority on a man,she must remain silent.
I believe that God created men and women equal.
Any help please.

I've been reading this thread and find you post some very good and fair minded questions. These questions lead me to ask for a little help in understanding more about you. I would like to know what you think about Jesus. It's only one question at the moment.

The question is about John 20:24-29 and what it implies. Do you believe Jesus died and afterwards was resurrected in a manner where those people could see and touch Him just like people today can see and touch each other?

I'd like to know this because it's a good place to start.

Kenneth Watwood · Jul 5, 2017

Thedictator said:
Christians believe in the Bible, non Christians do not so what is your point?

I believe in some parts of the Bible but not the parts that insults God. I am a Christian.

Kenneth Watwood · Jul 5, 2017

Norbert L said:
I've been reading this thread and find you post some very good and fair minded questions. These questions lead me to ask for a little help in understanding more about you. I would like to know what you think about Jesus. It's only one question at the moment.

The question is about John 20:24-29 and what it implies. Do you believe Jesus died and afterwards was resurrected in a manner where those people could see and touch Him just like people today can see and touch each other?

I'd like to know this because it's a good place to start.[/QUOTE. I believe that Jesus is an equal part of the Godhead.He was murdered on the cross and was resurrected.Thank you for your comments.

kepha31 · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
Matthew Ch.5V22.Whoever is angry with his brother or calls his brother a worthless fool is in danger of going to the fire of hell.
What a drastic punishment for a minor verbal offence.

Being in danger of hell is not the same as being condemned to hell.

Also I don't believe in the existence of hell.
Why would God create hell?

For the same reason you have a garbage can in your kitchen. God doesn't send anyone to hell, people send themselves.

V27.Teaching about adultery.
Admiring an attractive woman is normal physiology.
Putting the thoughts into action could be sin or even criminal Also plucking your eye out or cutting your hand off is not a Godly thing to do.

Jesus wasn't speaking literally.

V31? I believe that there are other good reasons for divorce.
V43 Love your enemies .Does this include Hitler and his psychopathic mob?

Loving your enemies does not mean tolerating their atrocities.

Acts Ch.5 Ananias and Sapphira.
I think that Peter behaved in a very unchristian way.

God killed Ananias and Sapphira, not Peter.

1Timothy Ch.2 Paul says I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority on a man,she must remain silent.
I believe that God created men and women equal.
Any help please.

As we look at marriage between husband and wife, God has likewise established specific roles and responsibilities in marriage. Although man and woman are both equal in personhood and value as human beings, they do have set boundaries and responsibilities. God designed man to be the head of the woman – but that does not imply inferiority. The feminist movement has done much damage to the God ordained role of the woman in creation. The idea that no gender distinctions exist among human beings is simply not true. To recognize gender distinction, roles, and responsibilities does not imply superiority of males nor does it signify inferiority of females.
Learning Marriage from the Trinity

dqhall · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
I believe that the ancient Egyptians wrote the Bible and then claimed that it was inspired by God so as to enhance their standing in the world.
We are all God 'S children and the promised land is the whole of God 'S earth.

I have read much about ancient Egyptian civilization and you are the first one I ever read to suggest a theory the ancient Egyptians wrote the Bible. Guesswork without substantiating evidence does not constitute proof. You might try reading books about ancient Egyptian civilization, archaeology and translations of hieroglyphic texts including Champollion's translation of the Rosetta Stone.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 5, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
How do we know?

"We" don't know.
To know His Will and His Purpose, His Way and His Life, means believing His Word, trusting His Word, and relying on His Word.
(contrary to the content of many posts, by many posters, stated beliefs that deny His Word)

Nige55 · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
David lusted after Bathsheba.
Not a Godly man.

Be careful Kenneth, if you've ever lusted over a woman you fall in the same boat.

CrystalDragon · Jul 5, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"We" don't know.
To know His Will and His Purpose, His Way and His Life, means believing His Word, trusting His Word, and relying on His Word.
(contrary to the content of many posts, by many posters, stated beliefs that deny His Word)

But how to we know that it's actually His Word? The Bible was made over centuries, some parts were written down centuries after they happened and were just passed down orally before (know the game Telephone? Multiply that by 1000), some parts were added or deleted, Revelation almost wasn't in the Bible, and not only were the Gospels written decades after Jesus, but the writers give no indication of having been present. No indication of "and Jesus said to us", etc.

Saying "the Bible is God's word just because it says so" is not only circular reasoning, but there were plenty of Scriptures added after the "all Scriptures is God-breathed" comment. How do we know the things added later aren't false?

Nige55 · Jul 5, 2017

tooldtocare said:
Passover this if you dare
5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

(Exo 12:21 KJV) Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
(Exo 12:22 KJV) And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the basin; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
(Exo 12:23 KJV) For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
(Exo 12:24 KJV) And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons forever.

The Lord I know would not condone the killing of anything, since He created it all. The term "hate" or "kill" is not in the Lord's vocabulary.

6th Commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

They defiled the Lord’s commandment then and they continue to defile the Lord today.

12 yr old boy SHOT DEAD in front of your eyes
Updated 9.48 p.m., 3rd Oct 2000
A 12 Year old Boy Shot Dead in front of YOUR Eyes

The sad story of the never ending killing of Palestinian children by the Israeli Defense Force all in the name of self-defense.

Murdering little girls is an Israeli sport it seems

Gaza girl said killed
By Amos Harel and Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondents,
and Haaretz Service
Thu., October 28, 2004

IDF troops shot and killed an 8-year-old Palestinian girl who was on her way to school in a Gaza Strip refugee camp
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/494672.html

Photos of a 12 year old palestinian boy being shot by Israeli soldiers and the ambulance driver who tried to save him also being shot and killed.
http://www.palestine-net.com/misc/durra/

Three-year-old Rawan Abu Zeid, who took bullets in the neck and head while buying candy with her friends.
5 June 2004
The New Yorker’s Israel: Where Objectivity Fails

An eight-year-old Palestinian girl shot dead by Israeli troops in the central Gaza Strip was killed while showing off her new school uniform to friends
http://tinyurl.com/99kh8zk

Boy of 17, shot by Israeli soldiers, left bleeding overnight to die
September 8, 2003
Haneen, who was eight years old, had been shot twice in the head by an Israeli soldier as she walked down the street in Khan Yunis refugee camp with her mother.

28 July 2003
She was coming down the street and ran to me and hugged me, crying,
'Mother, mother'. Two bullets hit her in the head, one straight after the other.
She was still in my arms and she died."
'I can't imagine anyone who considers himself a human being can do this'

IDF shoots 13-year-old girl in the back with 20 bullets and then the IDF commander goes over to the girl and shoots her again to make sure she was dead
Tue., October 05, 2004
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485274.html

“I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/children.html
HonestReporting | Media Watchdog | Coverage of Israel | Anti-Israel Bias | Everything You Need to Know

Those who condone the murder of anyone; much less children are the Devil’s puppets who will get the Lord’s just reward.
BTW: Moses murders a man in cold blood & then hides him in the sand

The Lord is listening, condemn this for your own sake

Looking at some of your list of sources, I'd be very careful with this kind of one-sided stuff. Not least, It's obviously clouded your judgement into posting a whole raft of it into a thread that bears absolutely no connection to it.

Nige55 · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
Justice and mercy are for all times and God has always been God.

It's the Justice part of your own sentence that your having the trouble with. God is love, but he is also just and holy. Often being just and loving is where we struggle to reconcile.
I'm sorry if the bible isn't full of daisy-chaining group hugging hippies, but wanting to omit the challenging parts is nonsense.
God has a righteous anger, just as you or I would if someone did something abhorrent to someone we dearly loved.

Kenneth Watwood · Jul 5, 2017

Nige55 said:
Be careful Kenneth, if you've ever lusted over a woman you fall in the same boat.

I never have but even if I had I would not have had her husband killed.

Nige55 · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
I never have but even if I had I would not have had her husband killed.

I find that hard to believe, but ok, whatever. Have you ever lied ?
What I'm clearly getting at is that all of us have behaved at times in an ungodly way, and yet God can still use us as he did David for his glory and will. So what makes you qualified to be his judge ?

Kenneth Watwood · Jul 5, 2017

Kenneth Watwood said:
I never have but even if I had I would not have had her husband killed.

I would like to ask another question before I explain what my motivations are.
The Crucifixion.This is so important that I need to deal with it separately.
I f the one true God had said the wages of sin is death ,it would have been an absurd statement because God in his infinite wisdom would have known that having given us free will, that we would all be sinners, and that he would have to kill all of us bodily or spiritually (or both.)
We now have a situation (if the Bible is true) almighty God has to come up with the plan to have part of the Godhead (Jesus) come to earth in human form.Then Jesus like the scapegoat would have all the sins of the world past,present and future heaped upon his head and then by allowing Jesus to be cruelly murdered,the wrath of God would be satisfied.
God is almighty and if He says,your sins are forgiven,that is an end of the matter.
God never sins and therefore could not have been involved in the killing of our Lord Jesus.
I do believe that the murder of Jesus was the worst crime ever committed but it has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin.

YHWH_will_uplift · Jul 5, 2017

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
You think Keruvim are children LOL?

Let's see...unless my etymology is wrong then yes cherubim are those who are like children: and Jesus said that unless we become children we cannot enter into His Kingdom.

The Passover.

Finally Old Enough

Regular

Active Member

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Regular

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Active Member

Newbie

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency