The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[FredVB]

Good point - this page is pinned. I'll keep that in mind and try to watch my tone. (Sorry - I sometimes get a bit snarky because I really DO care about climate change and the many other combined threats to us. You should see me in a thread here where there are climate deniers! Brother - I'm with you more than I'm against you.) However:-

THE BIBLE IS NOT AGAINST CITIES​

How do you maintain that your interpretation of your few passages shows the bible IS against big cities - when the answer at the end of those passages you refered to in Isaiah and Revelation is .... big cities? Godly cities? The end of your Isaiah passage refers to Jerusalem and the temple. And the end of Revelation is even more dramatic! John loves doing "compare and contrast" throughout Revelation. The mark of the beast replaces the daily Hebrew prayer (when they were metaphorically meant to have the Torah on their forehead and the back of their hand) - but in the next chapter GOD gives the martyrs a white stone with their secret name on it on their forehead. See? Compare and contrast. Living for wealth and today's power is like praying to the emperor - the mark of the beast - but living for God gives you something different.

In the same way the end of Revelation answers the problem of the evil city of Babylon with the arrival of God's city of New Jerusalem. It's symbolic writing - but look at this symbol! John uses the Hebrew number 1000 (which in modern slang would mean "A bajillion") as the way he multiplies out the dimensions of the temple city described in Ezekiel. It's 1000 times bigger! As wikipedia points out: ""One of the most obvious differences is that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21 are 1,000 times bigger than the dimensions of the city in Ezekiel 48 (and, in Rev. 20:9). New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is 2,225 km in length, width, and height. A city of these gigantic proportions cannot be located on Earth; but, as stated in Rev. 21, the city comes "down out of Heaven from God", presumably onto, the "new earth."" New Jerusalem - Wikipedia
Whatever else Revelation might be saying about Babylon - it's NOT that it is evil mainly because it is a city. That absolutely CANNOT be the message because the answer to evil Babylon is a gigantic cube-shaped city 2,225 km on each side - and that high! That's thousands of kilometres into space!

THE CLUB OF ROME'S LIMITS TO GROWTH​

You've referred to the computer model by the Club of Rome that was eventually written up as the controversial book the Limits to Growth. It asks all the right questions! But unfortunatley it had an overly pessimistic tone because many of the technologies we see taking over today - like clean solar power - were literally thousands of times more expensive than they are now. It has some important concepts - but was an early attempt. The Limits to Growth - Wikipedia

EG: Human population growth rates peaked decades ago and are still declining - and very soon! We know a lot more about the Demographic Transition than they did back then. We can map it out - and see it happening before our eyes. The global population will hit something like 9 or 10 billion in the next few decades and could really start to decline after that. We know that the very lifestyle you recommend - subsistence farming - increases population growth! For the same reasons that a big family was considered a blessing from God in the bible! Why? So you had someone to work the farm when you were old - so you wouldn't starve to death as you became old and infirm. Modern big city living with modern economic pressures decreases population growth.

THE CLUB OF ROME'S SISTER ORGANISATION MAPS SOLUTIONS​

Johan Rockstrom is a climatologist AND a Planetary Boundaries expert who writes for the Club of Rome's sister organistion "Earth for all". If ANYONE on earth gets the state of the earth - he does. He's 'the man'. He has developed the Planetary Boundries framework that results in the following "dashboard" of alarms for planet earth.

Planetary boundaries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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In one talk he asks, given how dangerous climate change is and how we've known about it for decades, why the world has not already just BANNED fossil fuels? He compared it to the hole in the ozone layer. Within a few years of discovering how CFC's were harming the ozone layer which is critical for blocking cancer-causing UV light, representatives from world governments were meeting in Montreal, Canada. It was remarkable. They signed the Montreal Protocol that just plain BANNED CFCs! The world as one said "NO MORE CFCS!" Boom. Done. It happened for CFC's. So why not with coal and gas and oil?

The answer? It's obvious. With CFC’s there was a cheap and easy alternative propellant already available. But energy is fundamentally different. First - we rely on it for our very lives and food - as without the Haber-Bosch process which draws nitrogen fertilizer out of the air - billions would starve to death. Everything we use has been mined and refined and cut and shaped and grown and packaged and transported with energy. If we just banned energy without phasing it out slowly - and radically de-industrialising (which no one apart from a few hippies wanted to do) - billions would have died in the chaos.

Second - there was no obvious cheap alternative at the time. It involves the physics of mining and moving large and heavy things, or doing incredibly energetic things. Our whole modern world is built on energy - with every calorie we eat taking about 10 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce it.

Yet today - even Johan has hope. After decades of subsidies and technical innovation, wind and solar are now cheaper than coal - and growing exponentially. During the 20th century the growth in oil consumption was astonishing. It doubled every decade! But solar is doubling every 3 years - which is 8 times in a decade (or growing 4 times faster than oil). By 2030 it will be the majority form of power on the planet - more than all the oil and gas and coal and nuclear and even wind - combined! In other words - we are close to fossil fuel's "Montreal Moment".
I timed it to where Johan talks about this.

BUT IT DOESN'T END THERE​

As I have said, Johan writes for "Earth 4 All" - a sister organisation to the Club of Rome. They have policies for every sector you can imagine. They have 5 'Turnarounds'.

Here is a vastly simplified summary. Start by reading this.

Five extraordinary turnarounds | Earth4All

Earth4All proposes five extraordinary turnarounds to transform the global economic system and achieve wellbeing for all on a finite planet.

earth4all.life

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This simplified graphic is based on enormous research. Just the Executive Summary on this page is a PDF 29 pages long. (At the top - Earth for All - English). The actual papers are across the base of this web page - with just the paper on Energy being 20 pages long in itself. Publications

SUMMARY: There really are awful risks to the environment and civilisation itself. But there really are answers. The question is - are you going to be one who unwittingly does big oil's job for them - and discourages people from the very real answers? Are you going to continue to push the idea that people have to go live with you on some hippie commune? (Got any recruits yet?) That we all have to live like the Amish or we're going to die? If that's your message - you are helping big oil. They are now funding energy sceptics and Doomers - as it destroys hope and then activism against their product.

As I expressed it before it appears to me like band-aids being put on while being wounded. I see as you post there are things being done. ...while keeping up the same standards of living and the expectation of that. This has the same demand on the world. That is the central issue. You (those you refer to anyway, I don't know what you do, but that isn't any accusation) may even stall the worsening, maybe, ...a little bit. But this is not looking at how things are still worsening, right now, and not lessening. And the claim that human population is going down right now is just wrong.

What about cities? We just need godly cities? Bro, there are no godly cities. There can be some certain godly people in there somewhere, but the cities are not godly. So God will bring the city of heaven, the "new Jerusalem", which refers to the bride of Christ, the sum of the repentant faithful believers, to the new earth, God's own restoration. You think then we could, and would, make godly cities. God's city is a description of all we want being provided for with no sins present. That is it. That is no endorsement for our cities, there never was. Circumstantial things in the Bible are grasped at to claim there is support for having cities which is not there. Standards and systems of cities now are most destructive to the earth. With Trump in office this will not slow.

 

[eclipsenow]

As I expressed it before it appears to me like band-aids being put on while being wounded. I see as you post there are things being done. ...while keeping up the same standards of living and the expectation of that. This has the same demand on the world.

Let me stop you right there! No it doesn't have the same demand! Dude - have you read ANYTHING I've posted to you? Right now answer this question. Would today's civilisation have the SAME climate impact if it were running on renewables alone?

You're simply NOT being honest with yourself if you answer yes. What did I show above? That CO2 is about 60% of our TOTAL environmental impact as per the footprint calculator!

That is the central issue.

Yes. And you're basically at the point of lying about it now. Until you can address the fundamental fact I have quoted above - I can't take you seriously. No one reading this can! (Unless of course they're a climate denier and in that case - why would we listen to them?)

You (those you refer to anyway, I don't know what you do, but that isn't any accusation) may even stall the worsening, maybe, ...a little bit.

There might indeed be worsening in other areas, hey? In other environmental impacts? But here's the thing. We can analyse and solve for those as well!

Your problem is you just shake your head and, like a magician, do magic handwaving to distract us. "It's all the same thing, it's all the same problem, it's all the same impact!"

But it's not. Clean energy = 60% of our impact GONE! Boom. Done. Down to 40%. And what is that made of? Everything else. Overfishing overhunting overfarming over grazing over damming the rivers, etc etc etc.

We can solve for each of those bit by bit as we go.

But this is not looking at how things are still worsening, right now, and not lessening. And the claim that human population is going down right now is just wrong.

You are having real comprehension problems aren't you? I didn't say the POPULATION ITSELF was going down - I said the POPULATION GROWTH RATE was going down. It's still going up - but not as fast. And we know why, and we can see that by 2050-ish it will peak and begin a WORLD WIDE DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSITION.

Do you know what that means? Have you got the comprehension to slow down and actually read the links I supply?

What about cities? We just need godly cities? Bro, there are no godly cities. There can be some certain godly people in there somewhere, but the cities are not godly.

Yup - and again you've missed the point! Those passages were about God's judgement, and God's answer. They were NOT condemning those cities for being cities! The city is just a tool. It's how we use it that is important. Your shovel is just a tool - but if you use it to cleave someone in half in a fight - that's murder.

That is no endorsement for our cities, there never was.

There is! And a city full of God's enemies that took his people into exile!

"Jeremiah 29:7 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare."

Oops! Kinda cherry-picked your way around that one didn't ya?

Back in the day, that was Israel's physical exile. However we're now sort of in a spiritual exile where the whole world is our home, and we are the heirs of it all in Christ who is our Lord - but we currently have nastier Landlords in charge than Him! But where we can, Christians should work for the 'good of the city' and especially in regards to saving the people in cities.

Which is why half the New Testament is named after cities.

So again:

For what feels like the 10th time:-​

1. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact?​

2. When are you going to answer FACT that Jeremiah 29 says to work "for the good of the city" - and that was a city full of God's enemies?​

3. When are you going to answer the FACT that going back to the land would double the land required to produce the same amount of food. (Unless of course we all went vegetarian - but you've got to convince everyone to do that as well!) ​

​

4. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that it's not geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the true environmental cost of your proposed solution?​

Dude - you're just not living in the real world.

 

[FredVB]

Let me stop you right there! No it doesn't have the same demand! Dude - have you read ANYTHING I've posted to you? Right now answer this question. Would today's civilisation have the SAME climate impact if it were running on renewables alone?

You're simply NOT being honest with yourself if you answer yes. What did I show above? That CO2 is about 60% of our TOTAL environmental impact as per the footprint calculator!


Yes. And you're basically at the point of lying about it now. Until you can address the fundamental fact I have quoted above - I can't take you seriously. No one reading this can! (Unless of course they're a climate denier and in that case - why would we listen to them?)


There might indeed be worsening in other areas, hey? In other environmental impacts? But here's the thing. We can analyse and solve for those as well!

Your problem is you just shake your head and, like a magician, do magic handwaving to distract us. "It's all the same thing, it's all the same problem, it's all the same impact!"

But it's not. Clean energy = 60% of our impact GONE! Boom. Done. Down to 40%. And what is that made of? Everything else. Overfishing overhunting overfarming over grazing over damming the rivers, etc etc etc.

We can solve for each of those bit by bit as we go.


You are having real comprehension problems aren't you? I didn't say the POPULATION ITSELF was going down - I said the POPULATION GROWTH RATE was going down. It's still going up - but not as fast. And we know why, and we can see that by 2050-ish it will peak and begin a WORLD WIDE DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSITION.

Do you know what that means? Have you got the comprehension to slow down and actually read the links I supply?


Yup - and again you've missed the point! Those passages were about God's judgement, and God's answer. They were NOT condemning those cities for being cities! The city is just a tool. It's how we use it that is important. Your shovel is just a tool - but if you use it to cleave someone in half in a fight - that's murder.



There is! And a city full of God's enemies that took his people into exile!

"Jeremiah 29:7 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare."

Oops! Kinda cherry-picked your way around that one didn't ya?

Back in the day, that was Israel's physical exile. However we're now sort of in a spiritual exile where the whole world is our home, and we are the heirs of it all in Christ who is our Lord - but we currently have nastier Landlords in charge than Him! But where we can, Christians should work for the 'good of the city' and especially in regards to saving the people in cities.

Which is why half the New Testament is named after cities.

So again:

For what feels like the 10th time:-​

1. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact?​

2. When are you going to answer FACT that Jeremiah 29 says to work "for the good of the city" - and that was a city full of God's enemies?​

3. When are you going to answer the FACT that going back to the land would double the land required to produce the same amount of food. (Unless of course we all went vegetarian - but you've got to convince everyone to do that as well!) ​

​

4. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that it's not geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the true environmental cost of your proposed solution?​

Dude - you're just not living in the real world.

It seems there is much easily misunderstood. I will not lose it like that though. I do not mean there is the same impact overall. I am speaking of our way of living with the same standards and the same expectations, from which there are the same demands. I hope it is seen, from this there is the same impact. Great that those things you mention some will do can help change the direction, what I point out, besides the plain fact that all people are not going to do as you say they would do, the climate change is happening and it is worse than previously thought, environments are being ruined still and many species are going extinct, huge forest areas are being burned down, and oceans are being depleted still. These are part of a longer list, there is no let up on these worsening yet. Hope for that can continue, for worsening to stop.

I gave verses and have been told to not repeat them. But we were shown what to do, from the start, and that is not being done. So there are these problems.

Not everyone will leave civilization and I know that. Still the example needs to show, and many doing this, growing all their food from vegetation where they go, will make a great difference, while crises will still come to those staying with cities of civilization.

 

[eclipsenow]

It seems there is much easily misunderstood. I will not lose it like that though. I do not mean there is the same impact overall. I am speaking of our way of living with the same standards and the same expectations, from which there are the same demands.

So am I. Everything could be the same - and our impact would drop 60%.

I hope it is seen, from this there is the same impact.

See? There you go again! In this scenario, this thought-experiment we are running about the day we wake up to a world of clean energy, we're not worried about Affluence / Consumption changing. We're not worried about the Population growing. We're JUST modelling the energy Technology.

Just the T in IPAT changes.
NOT the A.
NOT the P.
Just the T.

And the impact would be 45% less.
Are you getting this yet?

Great that those things you mention some will do can help change the direction, what I point out, besides the plain fact that all people are not going to do as you say they would do,

Renewables are unstoppable now. They're cheaper than coal. Solar is DOUBLING every 3 years! Do the maths!
It seems like even Johan Rockstrom is saying we'll go over 1.5 degrees of global warming. But that's hardly some magic Doomsday button where all the cities collapse. Every tenth of a degree matters - but civilisation itself isn't going to suddenly end because we hit 1.7 or 1.8. That's just wrong!

the climate change is happening and it is worse than previously thought, environments are being ruined still and many species are going extinct, huge forest areas are being burned down, and oceans are being depleted still.

Understood. Oh do I understand. But JUST clean energy would still cut our impact 45%.

These are part of a longer list, there is no let up on these worsening yet.

Incorrect. The 'worsening' is slowing down for P. The carbon per capita is slowing down.

Hope for that can continue, for worsening to stop.

Do you? Really? See - I thought you were saying it's already too late.

I gave verses and have been told to not repeat them.

Please - repeat them - and I'll just copy in and paste the end of those chapters that you so studiously ignore!

But we were shown what to do, from the start, and that is not being done.

Imagine if I asked you about the story of Cinderella. Imagine you gave me a good summary of the story. "She's the servant girl bullied by the ugly stepsisters, but meets a fairy godmother who transforms her by giving her a beautiful dress etc ... and the prince sees her inner beauty at the ball etc ... and she marries the prince!!"
Imagine I turned around and said, "Impossible! It says in chapter 1 that she was stuck in the basement all day bullied by the ugly stepsisters. What's all this fairy godmother business?"

That's what it's like trying to discuss the bible's picture of cities with you.

"Jeremiah 29:7 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare."

Also remember Romans 13:

Paul wrote to the ROMANS! That was the largest city in the ancient world! Please show me the chapter where he says to come out of Rome? Instead - we see him saying in chapters 12 to 15 saying live strong Christian lives, be living sacrifices, and obey the government who runs things (like the biggest city in the ancient world!) and pay your taxes. "Work for the good of the city!"

​

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.​

​

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."​

Then in Chapter 15 - he says he's planning on visiting Rome. The largest, most powerful city of the ancient world. The same city John's apocalyptic symbolism describes as being judged. What is going on here? Is the bible contradicting itself? No! Paul is talking about how to live now, John is saying how to live with the future in mind when persecuted in the now-but-not-fully-yet nature of God's kingdom. That is - while in Babylon - work for the good of the city! But keep in mind that one day Jesus will return. That's it!

So there are these problems.

Not everyone will leave civilization and I know that.

Billions. It's literally impossible for the world to obey your twisted reading the bible. But all you have presented is a warped understanding of how we're all meant to 'go back to the garden' - when there's an angel with a flaming sword stopping us go back. Like Cinderella, the story moves on from where you seem stuck! Then after Noah there's an explicit command allowing us to eat meat - even if now that seems terrible for the environment. We are NOT told they were NOT eating meat - otherwise what was Abel farming?

"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock."

Did God prefer the vegetarian meal over the sacrificed animal!? No! But that's not really about the type of sacrifice - but the quality and what was going on in the hearts of those presenting the sacrifice.

Still the example needs to show, and many doing this, growing all their food from vegetation where they go, will make a great difference, while crises will still come to those staying with cities of civilization.

Um, no. What if in just 5 to 10 years most of the world is eating factory food - and it's you permaculture people out on the land that are actually the ones doing more damage per hectare than us city dwellers? You're just assuming away PF - where in reality we've been thinking about PF since the 1960's and now the world's first commercial operation has just opened this year. Like most industrial processes - it just needs to scale up to bring the costs down.

 

[FredVB]

I thought you were saying it's already too late.

Please - repeat them - and I'll just copy in and paste the end of those chapters that you so studiously ignore!

But all you have presented is a warped understanding of how we're all meant to 'go back to the garden' - when there's an angel with a flaming sword stopping us go back. Like Cinderella, the story moves on from where you seem stuck! Then after Noah there's an explicit command allowing us to eat meat - even if now that seems terrible for the environment. We are NOT told they were NOT eating meat - otherwise what was Abel farming?

"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock."

Did God prefer the vegetarian meal over the sacrificed animal!? No! But that's not really about the type of sacrifice - but the quality and what was going on in the hearts of those presenting the sacrifice.

Um, no. What if in just 5 to 10 years most of the world is eating factory food - and it's you permaculture people out on the land that are actually the ones doing more damage per hectare than us city dwellers? You're just assuming away PF - where in reality we've been thinking about PF since the 1960's and now the world's first commercial operation has just opened this year. Like most industrial processes - it just needs to scale up to bring the costs down.

I do not say it is too late to survive. I say we can do things so that we do.

There is the model from the garden for us in Genesis 2, after we are told the perfect way meant for us in Genesis 1:29-30. It is a very very common objection I hear that this is attempting to go back to the garden of Eden and that is not possible. But this isn't that when I rightly said it is the model for us. We are separate from it in the cursed world from rebellion to God. There is shown what is given to us, growing the things we need ourselves from the earth with our own work. Genesis 3. There was no repeal God gave from that. Anywhere. I spoke of the history of cities already and it was the effort of men to move away from this that God gave us to do.

There is an abundance of evidence from different things that there is great collapse that we are yet drawing closer to. I do not know what your preterism excludes from having happened sometime before. What do you think is left of prophecy to be fulfilled? I see Isaiah 24 speaking to what is still yet to happen, and Revelation 18 shows imagery corresponding to that when we read it. This corresponds well to what we see from evidence from different things of what we are drawing closer to.

If you would argue about what we would eat, that is basically a separate topic off-topic to this, I could speak to it and have elsewhere. Here it is relevant that using animals still will not be sustainable. That is all I will say to that here.

Growing things takes land and resources, using animals uses much more, and demand for transportation and city life even more. May you solve those issues if you are actively doing things for change that would be enough. Are you yourself really doing these things? Or what are you doing, I am curious.

 

[eclipsenow]

I do not say it is too late to survive. I say we can do things so that we do.

There is the model from the garden for us in Genesis 2, after we are told the perfect way meant for us in Genesis 1:29-30. It is a very very common objection I hear that this is attempting to go back to the garden of Eden and that is not possible. But this isn't that when I rightly said it is the model for us. We are separate from it in the cursed world from rebellion to God. There is shown what is given to us, growing the things we need ourselves from the earth with our own work.

Except there are many different kinds of work. Paul was a tentmaker. Paul greets many other people in different churches and does nothing to condemn their trades unless of course he's warning about idolatry and people who make idols, etc. Your understanding of work is deficient. Genesis is highly symbolic language with creation in 7 days, talking serpents (common to many other ancient religions as the 'bad guys' - see Tiamet in Babylon) - and a reason for why the world is so harsh. I'm not sure if we went back in a time machine to see the fall if there would actually be a snake or even a tree of knowledge! It represents a rebellion that happened - and the significance of eating the forbidden fruit was not that they 'gained' knowledge of good and evil - but that by deciding to do so they themselves determined what was good and evil. THEY became the decision makers - not God. That's the point.

Genesis 3. There was no repeal God gave from that. Anywhere.

You are too literalistic again. The way you read Revelation is too literalistic - and also with these chapters in Genesis. We express our dominion over this earth when we program computers, sell clothes in shops, and treat our fellow human beings as bearing the image of God. This passage in Genesis is descriptive of what dominion over the earth was for Adam and Eve back then - not prescriptive for what it must be for every human for all time! It was the beginning - and the story develops! Cinderella does get out of the basement!

You need to go re-read a theology of work.

I spoke of the history of cities already and it was the effort of men to move away from this that God gave us to do.

In some cities it was defying God in other ways - but NOT trusting in him to provide a name for him but themselves building a fort they would trust in! (Babel). Or by such evil the city had to be nuked! Not that a large group of people living together in a largely man-made structure itself is forbidden - but the activities within that were.

There is an abundance of evidence from different things

You keep asserting this - I keep showing there are other factors at play. You have not PROVED your assertions or demonstrated why my other explanations are invalid.

that there is great collapse that we are yet drawing closer to.

"A great collapse." Maybe. Of certain cities in natural disasters etc. But of all cities? Meh. Dream on.

I do not know what your preterism excludes from having happened sometime before. What do you think is left of prophecy to be fulfilled?

The Lord to return. That's it! ALL the OT scriptures find there YES in Jesus. The game has been won. Jesus rose from the grave. He could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just do not know!

I see Isaiah 24 speaking to what is still yet to happen,

Nope. Go look at the context of Isaiah and what happened in history!

and Revelation 18 shows imagery corresponding to that when we read it. This corresponds well to what we see from evidence from different things of what we are drawing closer to.

Have you ever met anyone that reads Nostradamus? That's how I feel when modern American dispensationalists or 'futurists' or 'Millennialists' read Revelation. They see what they want to see, just as anyone trying interpret Nostradamus. It's a game of pin the tail on the enemy you don't like.

If you would argue about what we would eat, that is basically a separate topic off-topic to this,

It's not food laws - and some people might have health and gut issues that require them to eat a LOT more meat than carbs. It's a 'general moral advice' thing based on a compassionate reading of the bible, analysing how the livestock industry works, etc. But I am aware that food habits in culture are VERY ingrained and hard to remove, and that Christians can read the bible differently to me on some smaller ethical issues.

You? You're telling everyone they should leave their jobs and go Amish.

That is NOT in the bible! Read the New Testament letters and Acts. Show me ONE command of this! Paul says work hard with your hands - he does not say at what! He says pay your taxes - and give honour to those governors of big cities. Not FLEE ROME! You have not addressed this. You just rinse and repeat your fudge about Genesis being some kind of normative command for all time! You do not have a sophisticated argument about this at all brother - it's like a very blunt spade you try to hit people with. But it turns out that it's just a nerf blade - a foam thing you're waving about that's fooling no one. Genesis is true - it's just not literal. It's teaching us about the real relationships and responsibilities we have in the world to God, each other, and nature. It's just that there is SO much more in our 'dominion over the earth' that a Christian guy working on cheap biological organisms that might eat and dissolve plastic is practicing his dominion over the earth as much as a small farmer.

I could speak to it and have elsewhere.

You share words - they are not convincing arguments. Nerf spade.

 

[FredVB]

I admit, I am pretty much literalist, at least where there are things in the Bible interpreted many different ways. I will not make my argument. I have not read from Nostradamus. I had seen things that concerned me enough that I asked God if it would be true that great crises and collapse were coming, and I was in the church service during worship I sensed very strongly that God was answering, "Yes, it is!" I did not want that answer. I would have to have a very unpopular message to tell others and I would be rejected with it, I knew. But as I looked I found the support in Bible verses while news for being concerned of coming collapse grew much stronger. I said this, but I try using the links and information, and verses I find, for speaking of it.

I said I will not take part in food being permitted here, it is off-topic. It would get called on though could speak to that. But I do say rightly using animals still will not be sustainable enough.

This urgent documentary movie is certain to generate anger, debate, and hopefully a willingness to see our survival in a new way.

And the link to the documentary:

Many environmentalists are earnest in their concern for the environment and their efforts to mitigate global climate change, still this documentary makes a good case that their attempts to enlist the support of corporations significantly undermines their efforts. The documentary argues that it is not realistic to hope that “alternative energy” sources can permit human populations to climb and standards of living to grow.

I note that the film focuses on problems with solar and wind energy that reflect the state of these technologies well over a decade ago, and newer technologies are more efficient.

 

[FredVB]

Except there are many different kinds of work. Paul was a tentmaker. Paul greets many other people in different churches and does nothing to condemn their trades unless of course he's warning about idolatry and people who make idols, etc. Your understanding of work is deficient. Genesis is highly symbolic language with creation in 7 days, talking serpents (common to many other ancient religions as the 'bad guys' - see Tiamet in Babylon) - and a reason for why the world is so harsh...

So I am literalist.

I want to ask you what would it be that you imagine would be the scenario when Jesus Christ returns.

 

[eclipsenow]

I admit, I am pretty much literalist, at least where there are things in the Bible interpreted many different ways. I will not make my argument. I have not read from Nostradamus. I had seen things that concerned me enough that I asked God if it would be true that great crises and collapse were coming, and I was in the church service during worship I sensed very strongly that God was answering, "Yes, it is!"

The great Reformers talked about a doctrine called the "Sufficiency of Scripture." Read 2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is sufficient for our needs - it is enough to make us FULLY prepared to serve the Lord. It is our final guide on spiritual matters. If you're running off your own bad dreams, gut-level anxiety, whatever - I can't help you. You should be searching the scriptures to test your thinking and heart - to transform your mind. Not to confirm what is already in your heart!

2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Thoroughly equipped. As the Westminster Confession of Faith says (1.6)

"The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. " - Westminster Confession of Faith 1.6

That is - in terms of guidance on spiritual things - the bible is enough. And if you can't prove it to me from the bible - you do NOT get to say "God told me in a dream" or whatever. (That's basically what the whole of Islam is built on! You are NOT to do that!)

I've been in strong bible-teaching circles for decades. Many of my friends have Phd's in theology and history and really understand hermeneutics. (What the original audience made of the scriptures and how to then apply that today.) I've NEVER heard one of them say the bible says "Collapse" is coming. It's more nuanced.

One of my friends has a Phd in exactly this topic - the church's responsibility to the world in a time of environmental collapse. He runs a radio show once a week, blogs about it all, and has studied climate impacts extensively.

Even he isn't preaching "Repent - and get out of the cities!"

He basically says what I say (but a whole lot more fleshed out!)

We have an urgent responsibility to nature and our fellow human beings. That involves preaching the gospel and doing what we can as activists. That's it. Word, and action. Prayer, and preaching. And serving through loving actions in charities, justice, and demanding change. That's all we have! But it's changed the world in the past.

Our priority now is sharing the gospel - and loving our neighbour. As it always has been.

I did not want that answer. I would have to have a very unpopular message to tell others and I would be rejected with it, I knew.

Yeah yeah, oh the melodrama of it all!

Do you know how many times people in these forums have Cassandra syndrome? One person here goes on about the 'vision' he had in Jerusalem (probably just another standard case of Jerusalem Syndrome - another psychological condition). But Cassandra Syndrome is the long-suffering, very martyr-complex nature of people convinced they've 'seen the end' and - as they plead with people to just believe them - get a good dose of martyr complex in there as well.

The Cassandra metaphor (variously labeled the Cassandra "syndrome", "complex", "phenomenon", "predicament", "dilemma", "curse") relates to a person whose valid warnings or concerns are disbelieved by others. (See wiki)​

But as I looked I found the support in Bible verses

No you have not - you have a really poor understanding of these chapters.

while news for being concerned of coming collapse grew much stronger.

The challenges are real - but so are the answers. Which you throw the weakest objections at!

This urgent documentary movie is certain to generate anger, debate, and hopefully a willingness to see our survival in a new way. And the link to the documentary:

Oh please! I've seen this before and too many other attempts to debunk renewables. I mean - the wind stops and the sun goes down? Who would have guessed that? Has any engineering team ever analysed this stuff? Hasn't anyone noticed the sun goes down at night? That's basically the mentality of that video. (Yes I've seen it -I've written about it.)

Also - most of the peer-reviewed renewable sources I've seen are very aware that trees and biomass systems cannot make up for coal and oil and gas. That's why in the renewables space there's this mantra called "Electrify Everything."

Recharge

Summary: Given that oil production will start to decline in our lifetimes — and that climate change means we shouldn’t even burn the oil we do have in the first place — we’ve…

eclipsenow.wordpress.com

The scientific reality from enormous scientific institutions that have studied the weather is that we can build enough wind and solar, across a wide enough area, to largely eliminate the need for storage! If you're not getting over 95% of your power LIVE - you haven't build enough. It's called Overbuild - and it's why I used to be against renewables and for nuclear power. Back in the day it just would have cost TOO much to build renewables like that. But these days solar and wind have come down so much that they're still cheaper than a coal grid - even with all the Overbuild and extra transmission lines.

building a SUPER-GRID with more HVDC powerlines connecting up the east and west coasts means less storage. It shares the peaks and troughs in energy supply across a whole continent, which statistically smooths it out. It’s called “Geographic Smoothing” and also radically reduces storage. (From SciAm - 2015. That means it’s left peer-review and is in popular culture - people SHOULD know this stuff! If I know it - and I’m not very technical - anyone can know it.)


Renewable Energy Intermittency Explained: Challenges, Solutions, and Opportunities

Many environmentalists are earnest in their concern for the environment and their efforts to mitigate global climate change, still this documentary makes a good case

You must be in an extremely narrow echo-chamber on your energy news front to be convinced by this rambling nightmare of a 'presentation.' What - some guy's music festival with a few on-site solar panels is wrecked by bad weather - so we can't build a super-grid? Yeah - that's convincing! (Not!) Talk about a strawman argument. In other news, ALL Christians stand at the funerals of fallen soldiers and yell horrible things like Westboro Baptist - they represent ALL Christians everywhere - didn't you know? (Not really - just showing how a strawman argument works.)

that their attempts to enlist the support of corporations significantly undermines their efforts. The documentary argues that it is not realistic to hope that “alternative energy” sources can permit human populations to climb and standards of living to grow.

Yup. It does say that. Extremely poorly. It asserts it with scary music and a morbid tone.
And was debunked the month it came out by countless institutions - and wind and solar are also now SO much more cheaper than when it came out!

I note that the film focuses on problems with solar and wind energy that reflect the state of these technologies well over a decade ago, and newer technologies are more efficient.

Thank you. With more efficiency comes more cost reductions. They are the cheapest, cleanest sources of power known to mankind - and getting cheaper.

 

[FredVB]

The great Reformers talked about a doctrine called the "Sufficiency of Scripture." Read 2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is sufficient for our needs - it is enough to make us FULLY prepared to serve the Lord. It is our final guide on spiritual matters. If you're running off your own bad dreams, gut-level anxiety, whatever - I can't help you. You should be searching the scriptures to test your thinking and heart - to transform your mind. Not to confirm what is already in your heart!

2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

This is what I will answer, I do not have time for answering things at such length. This is what I was having to do before. I learned the accepted scenarios, and believed them, knowing even scripture passages for them. But that was just it, they were not confirmed. Nothing is. That is why discussion between us fails. You can say I fail to prove things to you, yet there is no way you prove that it is wrong, there isn't any proof. It has nothing to do with the accepted theories about end time scenarios, or with preterist explanation with previous events. There just isn't the proof, and I see what is happening even since I was convinced of having been shown, and that others are still holding on to theories and having some optimism in seeing solutions for any of what is critical in spite of scripture passages, in which we need God, and we cannot help ourselves without God. But few would be the godly.

 

[eclipsenow]

I learned the accepted scenarios, and believed them, knowing even scripture passages for them. But that was just it, they were not confirmed. Nothing is.

It sounds like you're not in a very bible-based, teaching-based church then. You should be more convinced of how to read the bible, and how to use it, and what it says if you're going to come onto a forum like this and try to COMMAND people to do something as enormous as uproot their lives and go and live on some dinky little hippie village with you!

That is why discussion between us fails.

You're sounding epistemologically confused and theologically weak.
You tried to tell me to leave a big city based on my Christian obedience to passages from Revelation and Isaiah, then from reading Genesis 1 (before the fall!), then ... from your gut feelings and some inner impression that "God was telling you something." Again - I've had dozens of people try the same thing to justify their End-Times scenarios here. But as I said, my Christian obligation is NOT to listen to your gut - but the bible which is able to make me thoroughly equipped to please God.

If some major life command isn't clearly in the bible - then it isn't on my agenda. Again:

2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

You can say I fail to prove things to you,

You can't! There's nothing in the bible that backs your position - and nothing you've quoted that actually attacks my position which is that we have the technology to radically reduce our environmental impact. Once again - just the clean Energy Transition will cut 60% of our impact.

Your rebuttal? Michael Moore's 'documentary' about a dinky little rock concert's solar panels that got rained on. Seriously? Now that renewables are so cheap - we can build solar out in a desert that barely gets any rain - AND the transmission from that desert to that rock concert - and it will STILL be cheaper than coal!

There just isn't the proof,

Correct.

and I see what is happening even since I was convinced of having been shown,

I'm sorry for your anxiety issues. I've had them myself. Get some counselling.

and that others are still holding on to theories and having some optimism in seeing solutions for any of what is critical in spite of scripture passages,

In spite of? Oh my goodness - I have my position BECAUSE of the scriptures - and indeed - since reading them - because of YOUR passages. What's the answer to bad cities? Good ones! Go check again!

in which we need God,

Yes.

and we cannot help ourselves without God.

Depends what you mean by help. Live Christian lives without God that please him without faith in his Son? Of course not! But design solar cells and energy grids that do less environmental harm than coal? Yup! Plenty of non-Christian people are involved in this.

So - no biblical proof that Collapse is inevitable - no technological proof that Collapse is inevitable - and just your gut feeling. About right?

See - I'm not saying we WILL make it. I don't know the future. Some cities could collapse. If Trump causes WW3 - the WORLD will collapse (with maybe Australia and Argentina surviving.) I'm just saying it does not have to happen. Technology is still improving. Amazing things are coming that could increase human productivity, decrease environmental impact, clean up our energy and industry, recycle almost everything, give us abundant fresh clean water and food, and ultimately reduce human need, geopolitical strife and war! If we have the environmentalists who will wake up, put on their work-pants, and get out and DO something to encourage all this to happen!

Just watch this 20 minute Youtube on how Precision Fermentation could feed the world while reducing 30% of our land use (in grazing livestock) and even meet all sorts of industrial material needs. Like abundant cheap spider-silk! Check it out.

 

[FredVB]

It sounds like you're not in a very bible-based, teaching-based church then. You should be more convinced of how to read the bible, and how to use it, and what it says if you're going to come onto a forum like this and try to COMMAND people to do something as enormous as uproot their lives and go and live on some dinky little hippie village with you!


You're sounding epistemologically confused and theologically weak.
You tried to tell me to leave a big city based on my Christian obedience to passages from Revelation and Isaiah, then from reading Genesis 1 (before the fall!), then ... from your gut feelings and some inner impression that "God was telling you something." Again - I've had dozens of people try the same thing to justify their End-Times scenarios here. But as I said, my Christian obligation is NOT to listen to your gut - but the bible which is able to make me thoroughly equipped to please God.

If some major life command isn't clearly in the bible - then it isn't on my agenda. Again:

2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."



You can't! There's nothing in the bible that backs your position - and nothing you've quoted that actually attacks my position which is that we have the technology to radically reduce our environmental impact. Once again - just the clean Energy Transition will cut 60% of our impact.

Your rebuttal? Michael Moore's 'documentary' about a dinky little rock concert's solar panels that got rained on. Seriously? Now that renewables are so cheap - we can build solar out in a desert that barely gets any rain - AND the transmission from that desert to that rock concert - and it will STILL be cheaper than coal!




Correct.


I'm sorry for your anxiety issues. I've had them myself. Get some counselling.


In spite of? Oh my goodness - I have my position BECAUSE of the scriptures - and indeed - since reading them - because of YOUR passages. What's the answer to bad cities? Good ones! Go check again!


Yes.


Depends what you mean by help. Live Christian lives without God that please him without faith in his Son? Of course not! But design solar cells and energy grids that do less environmental harm than coal? Yup! Plenty of non-Christian people are involved in this.

So - no biblical proof that Collapse is inevitable - no technological proof that Collapse is inevitable - and just your gut feeling. About right?

See - I'm not saying we WILL make it. I don't know the future. Some cities could collapse. If Trump causes WW3 - the WORLD will collapse (with maybe Australia and Argentina surviving.) I'm just saying it does not have to happen. Technology is still improving. Amazing things are coming that could increase human productivity, decrease environmental impact, clean up our energy and industry, recycle almost everything, give us abundant fresh clean water and food, and ultimately reduce human need, geopolitical strife and war! If we have the environmentalists who will wake up, put on their work-pants, and get out and DO something to encourage all this to happen!

Just watch this 20 minute Youtube on how Precision Fermentation could feed the world while reducing 30% of our land use (in grazing livestock) and even meet all sorts of industrial material needs. Like abundant cheap spider-silk! Check it out.

I have said nothing at all about you personally up until now, but you still make personal remarks about me. So I will say something now. You seemed nice to start with, maybe godly. But you continued on with it becoming more clear as it is now that you do not argue in good faith. You make strawman argument to speak against what I never say. For one example, you say I command others. I give reasons for things to do, there was never a command from me for you or others doing anything. You may dismiss the reasons, but you are wrong to argue against me commanding you to do anything, which I never did. One thing I did say was reference to passages of what was from God, that people are told to come out. But showing what God said can be interpreted differently and it is not my giving any command. You have been making ad hominem argument with personal remarks about me that you actually do not know at all. And you do not know why God would leave me "thinking" this is shown and not showing me it is otherwise with how much I asked to be shown it was not so. Some act on what is from their gut, this is from microbes there, but you can't know if this was not that, so you just make remarks against it without the knowledge, and remark that it is like I am epistemologically confused and theologically weak. Argument in good faith would address the points without any personal remarks. I don't have to go on about how much I studied and what I found was weak in eschatological views I had learned, anything in that direction is irrelevant to discussing the points. I would say continuing with this is only worthwhile with just addressing points that are made.

 

[eclipsenow]

I have said nothing at all about you personally up until now, but you still make personal remarks about me.

I apologise - I am in between jobs and not sleeping well. I've been under a fair bit of stress in the last week with various things going wrong leading up to Christmas - the family have Covid etc. So I apologise for this bit. "try to COMMAND people to do something as enormous as uproot their lives and go and live on some dinky little hippie village with you!" I'm not retracting the command bit - but making it about you recruiting people to go live with you in your 'dinky little hippie village'. Sorry. I have said before that there's a lot to admire about that lifestyle choice - and I should not have said that. But....

So I will say something now. You seemed nice to start with, maybe godly. But you continued on with it becoming more clear as it is now that you do not argue in good faith. You make strawman argument to speak against what I never say. For one example, you say I command others. I give reasons for things to do,

If you tell me the BIBLE SAYS WE SHOULD LEAVE CITIES! - it's not something of a command from God himself? I think you are hiding from the consequences of your (unique and unjustified) reading of the bible.

You may dismiss the reasons, but you are wrong to argue against me commanding you to do anything, which I never did.

No - but you are quite happy to dangle the Revelation and Isaiah verses in front of me and say the bible says we should leave big cities! OR ELSE! (Inserting verses about the collapse of cities etc.) Then talking about Sodom and Gomorrah! Are you really trying to say you're 'just sharing what you think the bible says' - without trying to actually get people to believe the bible is commanding us to leave big cities?

One thing I did say was reference to passages of what was from God, that people are told to come out.

Agreed - you did - and you said the consequences were going to be like Sodom and Gomorrah!

But showing what God said can be interpreted differently

Can be? I've never heard your version of these passages before. Not once in 40 years of being in solid, bible teaching churches. It's not can be, but are interpreted differently. You're the only one singing this tune from these passages.

and it is not my giving any command.

Oh no! No command to come out! Just God speaking. Just the bible. Just passages about cities burning and collapse - and applying them to us now! No - nothing to see here! Nothing at all!

You have been making ad hominem argument with personal remarks about me that you actually do not know at all.

When I do that it's usually because something weird is going on in the discussion - that someone just keeps repeating themselves without actually addressing important points. Like these....

For what feels like the 10th time:-​

1. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact?​

2. When are you going to answer FACT that Jeremiah 29 says to work "for the good of the city" - and that was a city full of God's enemies?​

3. When are you going to answer the FACT that going back to the land would double the land required to produce the same amount of food. (Unless of course we all went vegetarian - but you've got to convince everyone to do that as well!)​

4. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that it's not geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the true environmental cost of your proposed solution?​

And you do not know why God would leave me "thinking" this is shown and not showing me it is otherwise with how much I asked to be shown it was not so.

Yep. I'm going to stand with the great Reformers on that one! Your feelings about how to read the bible do not replace solid hermeneutics. No where in the bible am I told to listen to someone else's 'vibe' on how to read a passage. Rather, we need to respect the historical writing genres that help us understand how the original audience read it. (A discipline called hermeneutics.) If you get the genre wrong - you may as well watch the Simpsons as an engineering manual on how to build a nuclear power plant!

THE BIBLE IS OUR NORTH STAR: The bible is our only true guide and final authority on how to please God and live as his servants in this world. This is a core principle of good theology that is under attack from the Charismatic movement today. It was originally drawn up to help the Reformers articulate what they disagreed with in excessive Roman Catholic tradition and the Pope. They both presented themselves as more authoritative than a direct reading of scripture! But now it seems that American individualism - born of being raised in a culture where every child is taught they have all these 'rights' (1) - now all think they have the 'right' to not only their own interpretation of scripture - but to an inner sense of God telling them something special. Something new. And that is profoundly dangerous - and starts many cults.

CULTURAL CONTEXT: Since the Renaissance and modernism, the cultural pendulum has swung the other way. Rather than respect authorities and traditions explaining the world to us - we are now more prone to a sense of a profound 'right' to be stubborn and ignore peer-reviewed science and theology. I am convinced everyone has the responsibility to read the bible for themselves. But that involves rigorous thinking - and many are convinced they can do a better job than people who have devoted themselves to studying historical genres and hermeneutics - knowing what the texts meant to the original audience - before then seeking to ask "What does it mean for us today?"

DISASTER: Now we have a church - especially in America - that is an embarrassment on the world stage. They just stick to our own opinions on things. They tend to be anti-truth and alt-right - going to the ironically named 'Truth Social' for their opinions. Look at the anti-vaxxers and Young Earth Creationists and global warming denial. Instead of timidly just accepting what some Pope or local tradition says - many today are willing to create their own online echo-chamber to scratch their itching ears and deny anything they don't want to hear.

RETURN TO THE NORTH STAR: Our 'guiding light' should be the scriptures themselves. Good theology acknowledges what the bible says of itself: that it is what we read and study to transform our minds so our hearts can obey the Lord. That the bible alone is what guides us. This is how the Church of England put it when the "Archbishops, Bishops, and the whole clergy of the Provinces of Canterbury and York" met over four and a half centuries ago in London, 1562. It's Article 6 of the 39 Articles of the Anglican Communion.

"Of the Sufficiency of the holy Scriptures for salvation​

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the holy Scripture, we do understand those Canonical books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.”​

The Thirty Nine Articles : Anglican Church League, Sydney, Australia

acl.asn.au

(Footnote 1: Australia doesn't have a Bill of Rights - but a minimalist set of constitutional protections to safeguard our democracy. I like it that way - but that's a whole other conversation!)

 

[FredVB]

"When I do that it's usually because something weird is going on in the discussion - that someone just keeps repeating themselves without actually addressing important points."

This is not good reason to cross the line and make personal remarks, which is what you started on your own.

Saying "go and live on some dinky little hippie village with you" is what my communication is for is dismissive.

I can share scripture passages, there would easily be more, but what is communicated is in there whether I post them or not, and you will just have another understanding of them.

You say "You're sounding epistemologically confused and theologically weak" without yet having checked any of my epistemology or theology, to be dismissive. Go ahead and ask me things to find out. Churches I have been to are not the source for all that I believe, I pray and prayerfully have gone through the scriptures, many times, over and over. I use the original language of the early manuscripts, which passages from them are available online, where anything is really doubtful when seeing a few translations. I am not really young, as a person or in terms of being a believer. But you have not asked anything to find our about my faith, and made the assumptions to be dismissive.

And, I asked you directly, which you have avoided answering, what are you doing about any of this. You have posted of things being done. What is your involvement? What things are you yourself doing for betterment in this world while things are worsening?

 

[eclipsenow]

This is not good reason to cross the line and make personal remarks, which is what you started on your own.

I already apologised for the "dinky little village comment".

I can share scripture passages, there would easily be more, but what is communicated is in there whether I post them or not, and you will just have another understanding of them.

True - but there is good reading and bad reading. You are not respecting the genre of the passages you quote - so you immediately fail to comprehend what they are really about. Please listen to this podcast regularly - it's one of the best Christian podcasts out there. (The host is also a friend of mine.) This particular episode explains what I mean - please listen to Bible Genres.

You say "You're sounding epistemologically confused and theologically weak" without yet having checked any of my epistemology or theology, to be dismissive. Go ahead and ask me things ...

You're kidding, right? Can you please go back and count how many times I've asked you to justify what you are talking about, both theologically and scientifically?

You sound like Donald Trump claiming that the 2020 election was stolen. "We have papers - so many papers you would not believe it - proving that it was stolen." Yet 64 court cases later those papers have still not shown up.

It feels like 64 posts here later - and your "evidence" has still not shown up.

And, I asked you directly, which you have avoided answering,

Excuse me - but I've asked you have put your money where you mouth is.
Are you writing from a permaculture community yet?
You're the one claiming that's what both the bible and science says.

As for me: I'm a peak oiler from 2004. I remember reading LATOC late at night - if you don't know what that was - you're a newbie to this movement - even if you're older than I am. (I'm mid 50's).

I've read Heinberg's "Party's Over" and "Powerdown" and dozens of others. I founded and ran an activist group (wonderful volunteers!) who presented to our state politicians. I got permission from the producers of "End of Suburbia" (enlightening!) to do a half hour cut of their movie and burned it to DVD and sent it to every State and Federal politician in Australia. I spent every day and night online. I lost sleep. We presented the ASPO graph as part of a peak oil kit in the NSW State parliament theatre - and had some big names in to speak about the urgency of weaning off oil. We helped run a Richard Heinberg tour of Australia in 2005, organising speaking and book selling events. I get it. I was there. I was a freaked out reluctant Doomer - looking for a way out of ‘energy decline’ and not finding it. I was almost ready to wear a placard downtown. I did all that while I should have been focusing on my 5 year old boy who was sick with cancer! I've run events at my church.

But then, over time, all my old assumptions about renewables being too intermittent and expensive have changed. As they scaled up the cost came down. They are now cheap enough to Overbuild to compensate for bad weather and winter's reduced solar. Now I've torn down my old garage and put in a Granny Flat so my son and daughter in law can live in micro-housing - which is better for the environment. I've covered our houses with 47 solar panels because we work from home and use a lot of electricity. One day I'll be able to afford an EV as they come down in price - they are already cheaper over the lifespan of the car. (Given the fuel is free from my roof and there is no engine to service!). But I'm waiting for when they are cheaper to BUY than oil cars - which is coming soon!

Now my emphasis of course is on the climate science and other sustainability issues. I've written to politicians, befriended them on Facebook, posted stuff to them. I'm part of a local activist group and attend meetings and am involved.

What have you done? Why are you fleeing the city instead of staying and getting involved in activism, writing to politicians, praying for the city, sharing the gospel, encouraging the whole thing to change course?

You're the one that is like King Arthur in Holy Grail saying "Run away! Run away!"

And you ask ME what I've been doing? What have YOU been doing - other than telling anyone who cares to flee? Can't you see that could become a self fulfilling "prophecy"?

I'm the one shouting "The curtains has just caught fire - quick - help me - grab another fire extinguisher and help!"

You're standing there solemnly saying "No, it is too late my friend. The house has already burned down. It's inevitable. You may as well admit defeat and flee with me."

Do you remember why I'm an activist - the event that has scarred me for life? I hope you'll read this next section which is from my blog's summary page and take warning! It's Christmas Day here in Australia. Given the tone of this discussion now - I won't wish you a Merry Christmas but a godly one. A gospel focussed one where you ponder why the Lord Jesus came into this world. Was it to run and hide in a permaculture village? Or was it to serve and eventually die in the big city to save us? Over to why I cannot let Doomerism spread unchallenged!

---

Doomers and the suicide that changed me​

This stuff is heavy. Most of us just want to get through the day and enjoy a meal and maybe some TV. Many turn off the news when it gets too sad and watch their next show, leaving us activists do all the work! Although I understand - everyone needs a break. If you stare at this stuff too long - it can really get depressing.


For some it proves too much and breaks their resolve and optimism. This cumulation of bad news provokes too much anxiety about the future. Rather than remain in a philosophically wise state of uncertainty, their resolve breaks and they end up attracted to Doomsday scenarios. Psychologists have studied this phenomenon - and it turns out that anxiety about uncertainty is even worse than anxiety about some imagined future horrors. That's why people tend to divide between the technology optimists and Doomer defeatists. There is a kind of comfort in deciding we are Doomed. The uncertainty is gone - and it also gives a cynical relief to the pressure to do anything about the environmental crisis. For if the world is ending anyway, no matter what we do - why not just grab a beer and watch it all come crashing down? This worldview destroys activism - which is why Big Oil now sponsor climate Doomers online.


But beware - there are dangerous consequences to all of this. There are online groups with cult-like indoctrination and dogma. They have their own rituals and power structures, and leaders addicted to the feeling of being high-priests of doom in their online groups. If you have fallen into one of these groups - please be careful. I was in one of these groups and it cost me dearly. But far worse - it cost one family the life of their 19 year old son. He gave up hope, rode out to his favourite tree in his favourite national park - and hung himself.

If you're in one of these groups - please - take a 6 month break! You owe it to yourself to be intellectually honest and read both sides of this story. Block the group, leave the site - and start reading through some of the more optimistic websites I list in my solutions pages across the top navigation bar. You do not need their permission to take a break from their groupthink. Groupthink can filter your sources so meticulously you will simply not hear the valid, peer-reviewed resources I quote above.


There is a difference to having a pessimistic few months, and going down one of these very dark rabbit-holes. Yes we have challenges - but we have always faced challenges. The end of the world as we know it has always been just a plague or drought or war away. This is true today, just as it was in ancient Mesopotamia as the Assyrians rampaged across the known world.


But bit by bit the human race is learning, or at least the systems we live in are getting smarter. We now live in the statistically safest, richest period in human history. Rather than be eclipsed by peak oil and climate change and biosphere collapse - my hope is that the next decade/s will so outshine our old patterns of technology and culture that we eclipse ourselves.

However, we must act soon. This is not binary - succeed or fail, live or die. This is nuanced. There are many ways we might get by in some areas and fail in others. Climate change is accelerating. If we become complacent our children may inherit a planet we hardly recognise. On current trends - IF we were stupid and did nothing - half the biodiversity will be extinct by 2050 and possibly billions will grind by in crushing poverty, hunger, and even some war. But some amazing new tech is here, and so cheap! Some amazing new cultural ideas are here - like how we build or cities or grow our food. I'm convinced that modern civilisation and nature can not just survive, but thrive.

There is hope if you get involved in the solutions​

 

[FredVB]

I already apologised for the "dinky little village comment".

You think you did? Saying "I'm not retracting the command bit - but making it about you recruiting people to go live with you in your 'dinky little hippie village' " did not seem like it to me. I would not choose to force anyone. I feel the obligation to be at least minimally to be a messenger, maybe, God would have me doing more, but I was hoping not. I am kind of old for this. But it is the fact that messenger get shot for unpopular messages they bring.

You do say "There are many ways we might get by in some areas and fail in others. Climate change is accelerating. If we become complacent our children may inherit a planet we hardly recognise. On current trends - IF we were stupid and did nothing - half the biodiversity will be extinct by 2050 and possibly billions will grind by in crushing poverty, hunger, and even some war." This stuff is in my messages where I say things about what we face. Hope in the technology you claim will save us is a long shot as my call (not ever a command, any who would come joining with those they can to this way should and must do it willingly) is a long shot, that I feel few would come to, but it will not be none. How there would be enough change of all civilization, now of all times, to yet continue a long time in this limited world, is a tremendous obstacle. Am I doing things for the way I call? Even at my greater age I have and will still do such things, planting what I can for food to still be available, and always living very simply, keeping contribution to demands at the very minimum, while the way to go is to stop with the demands being more independent from it all. It is also not arguing in good faith to gaslight for whatever failure you had, I have had nothing at all to do with it. I speak for a positive way forward, which people have done before, and it was hardly more than a century back when there was change with the population more generally having more demands that was approaching what there is now in this world. Now it is so difficult to not contribute to these demands within civilization. I know this, I don't know anyone who is living as simply with their choices as I am. And I know this minimal contribution must be cut away more, that only growing things and making things yourself with those who move to this with you could do. This way people could always continue in this world. I know this world would not go on forever, but it should not be our fault that it can't. We would be held accountable, it was given to us to be stewards to this earth such that it would not be our fault that it can't.

 

[eclipsenow]

My blog page was not evidence for your claims that the house has already burned down.
It was saying the curtains are on fire - and unless we do something the house will burn down.
Yet again - you are assuming you know the outcome before you have grabbed that first bucket of water!

Your call to run away still abandons everyone to their fate - and is uncompassionate and to me seems to run against the very core of the gospel - to go to where the people are and help share the message.

Also - you just finished saying you had all this evidence? Where is it?

ONCE AGAIN:-

When are you going to acknowledge these MASSIVE PROBLEMS with your claim that the Bible and Science both say we must "Go Amish!"

BIBLE: It's just not in there! The 2 passages you refer to that seem to say it are actually judgement on ungodly cities - and the answer to them is godly cities. In both passages! Eden is symbolic language of our ideal state - but now we live in a fallen world outside that special 'garden'. Things 'got real' when we fell - and we work by the sweat of our brow - either in physical sweat of life on the farm - or in horrible, cardiovascular disease causing mental stress behind a computer all day. It's just part of life now - and our theological hope is in our forgiveness in Jesus and the new world - not some agrarian lifestyle. (More on technological hope below.)

The grand sweep of the bible is the OT looking forward to Jesus, and the NT showing us Jesus and then looking back at his saving works and sharing this gospel as the church starts to look forward to the new hope we have in Jesus saving work. The Great Commission is to go share the gospel - and make disciples. What did the disciples do? Acts shows us. They went to the big cities first. In fact - the gospel seemed to go to the cities first and stay there a few generations. That's where the most people were, and so that's where the first churches were. The word 'pagan' has its origins in being a 'country dweller' - because the cities were so Christianised in comparison to the 'pagans'.

These are biblical and history facts. You have not put up any strong counter-arguments against them. It gets worse. The New Testament shows that it is not just OK to live in the big cities - but a priority! So we can share the gospel where the majority of the people are!

Even in exile under the Babylonians - God told Israel to work "for the good of the city" - and that was a city full of God's enemies! But while we are here we are to live a quiet life, doing something productive so we can share. We are to honour the authorities (Romans 13) that governed what - the little farms only? NO! Romans 13 is about honouring the Senators in ROME - the largest city biblical authors knew about!

The New Testament letters are named after the churches in the Big Cities of the day - and there are no commands in these letters for the churches to leave these cities. EG: Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, etc.

You have failed to provide ANY good evidence to convince other Christians that they must "Go Amish" on biblical grounds. Now - if you are simply stating this is your preference, and you feel it is a lifestyle that attracts you - go for it! Maybe that's your new marketing strategy? Maybe you want to live a more "earth friendly" way closer to "nature" in a permaculture village - and are looking for a Christian version of it? Why not google Christian Permaculture Villages?

But the moment you are trying to say "God told me everyone should do this!" - I'm going to slam 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and many verses like it back into this conversation - hard! Your gut feelings on these issues DO NOT compel any other Christian's consciences - ever! Only the bible has that authority - not your feelings in church one day. Get it?

Scientific and practical and political problems with your call to "Go Amish!"
I reject that the only way to fix the technological impact of civilisation is to reject technology. First - this technology has improved our quality of life in many ways - and reduces human suffering and advanced medical technology saves lives.

Second - that's just too simplistic and Luddite. Again - you need to read far far more than you do about where all this could be heading if we activists just nudge things in the right direction. So Trump got in. Didn't you know oil is more expensive than electricity to run cars? That EV's (out of China at least) are already cheaper than many oil cars to run because they don't have an ENGINE to service and solar from rooftop panels are FREE electricity? That Trump's main ally runs America's first EV company? In other words - there's hope to continue this revolution even under Trump. The house has NOT burned down yet.

Third, environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact.

Fourth, going back to the land as manual farmers would double the land required to produce the same amount of grains - let alone if we wanted some meat protein!

Fifth, it's not geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the REAL environmental cost of your proposed solution when we have to rebuild 1 BILLION homes?

Sixth, convincing a few people to abandon the big cities achieves nothing because the overwhelming tide of global movements now is towards the big cities and promise of jobs there.

SEVENTH! My last practical concern with your message is a simple observation: how many people have you convinced so far?
Now you get it!

 

[FredVB]

We either trust God's design that was to include people was perfect for us, which will mean it is a model for us, or we do not really trust that, shown in the Bible.

Is there a city in biblical history shown as a model for us? No. There is no godly city. You can claim there is no call to leave cities. There was never any call to join cities. Cities were not the best for us.

Your appeal supposedly based on the passages from Romans can be a slippery slope. With meaning you apparently interpret it would have requirement to support and obey whoever is in power when you are there, whether it would be Mussolini, Nero, Stalin when in power over the USSR, or Hitler's Nazi Germany. Answering to God is what should really matter, that should be understood, this would be considered by others to be undermining other authorities in power then.

 

[eclipsenow]

We either trust God's design

I am trying to! Jeremiah 29 is roughly comparable to the situation Christians find themselves in today in terms of living with the tension of being in God's kingdom - yet still being required to honour those secular governments that are in charge. The Israelites are captured in Babylon. Now I don't want to over-emphasise this verse - because I am not promoting a 'prosperity gospel' that promises as we work hard we will all get rich and increase in number etc. That promise was to an Israel that had been severely culled and punished - and God was recuperating her. But - nevertheless - here it is.

Jeremiah 29

4 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”

Seek the prosperity of the city!

You just ignore what you don't want to see.
You promote a symbolic passage about Eden - a garden with a talking snake and tree of knowledge and angel with a flaming sword - over the harsh reality that we are now outside Eden - and WILL NOT RETURN TO IT until heaven. Eden isn't a command - it's an explanation! Eden isn't a type for us to try and emulate - it's the start of the theological story of God's rescue plan. Sure - it has the principle that we are meant to be good stewards of this earth because it is not ours, but God's. But as for arguing it is the pattern we are meant to live by - dude - are we meant to run around naked?

Please. Try to learn about context and genre! You have again ignored everything I said, and not listened to any link I provided! Anyone else reading this thread will be bored to tears by the fact that you are just not engaging the ideas presented to you! When are you going to?
You: "We should live like Eden." I then raise a bunch of arguments against that - and rather than actually respond to them? You just repeat: "We should live like Eden." I link to experts in biblical genre? "We should live like Eden." I've now reminded you that they were naked? How are you going to respond? My guess is you'll repeat... "We should live like Eden."

Where's that more sophisticated and advanced epistemology and theology you were hinting at above hey? Remember - Donald Trump just asserted "We have so many papers - we have amazing papers - you wouldn't believe the papers we have proving the election was stolen..." and not ONE of them showed up in 64 court cases.

When are you going to prove what you keep asserting? Where are your other evidence/s and verses?

You just ignored EVERYTHING I said above about the overall sweep of the bible towards the cities. What was that sweep? The targetted mission of the apostles to share the gospel. The fact that half the New Testament is named after the cities the biggest churches are in.

For the 20th time - please explain this fact if God didn't want the church to live in cities!!!?​

Remember 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: you should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

Whether or not you want to hear this - Romans 13 was written to the Christians in the church of Rome and did not command them to come out of Rome. Instead? Be good citizens of Rome and honor her leaders!

Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.​

​

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.​

that was to include people was perfect for us, which will mean it is a model for us, or we do not really trust that, shown in the Bible.

Yeah - that's perfect for us - which is why we are running around naked! See - I'm forced to dumb it down to the most obvious differences between us now and them then - because otherwise you're just not getting how vastly different the style of writing is in Genesis 1 - 11, and how different the theological period was before the fall.

Is there a city in biblical history shown as a model for us? No. There is no godly city.

Jerusalem was held up as something that was meant to be an example and failed. Even worse for your poor sadly unjustifiable argument, Jeremiah said to work for the good of the city of God's enemies! The Thessalonians were to work hard to win respect of the outsiders in their situation - Thessalonica - and the Romans were to pay taxes and honour the governors of Rome itself!

Where is the command to come out of those cities, hmm?

You can claim there is no call to leave cities.

There isn't. It's not a claim - it's a fact.
But if you want us all to run around naked....

There was never any call to join cities.

Oh I disagree! Read Acts. The disciples very diligently pursued the cities, and wrote about funding missions to the cities. You, my dear Fred, are wrong, wrong, wrong.


The Bible does not advocate for fleeing cities, but rather for engaging with them through love and service. The disciples, inspired by Jesus's example, actively sought out cities to spread the Gospel and serve the people within them. The New Testament itself is filled with letters addressed to specific churches in various cities, highlighting the importance of these urban communities in the early Christian movement.




Here are some examples from the book of Acts:

• Acts 8:1-4: Following the persecution in Jerusalem, Philip evangelizes in Samaria, a major city.
  
  
• Acts 8:25-40: Philip travels to Azotus and Caesarea, sharing the Gospel along the way.
  
  
• Acts 9:31:The church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria enjoys a time of peace and grows in numbers.
  
  
• Acts 11:19-21:The word of God spreads to Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, with great results.
  
  
• Acts 13-14: Paul and Barnabas are sent out by the Holy Spirit on their first missionary journey, visiting cities like Salamis, Paphos, Perga, Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe.
  
  
• Acts 15:35-41: Paul and Barnabas continue their ministry in various cities, including Pamphylia, Pisidia, and Lycaonia.
• Acts 16:6-10: The Holy Spirit guides Paul and Silas to visit the cities of Asia Minor and Macedonia.
• Acts 17:1-15: Paul preaches in Thessalonica, Berea, and Athens.
  
  
• Acts 18:1-11: Paul ministers in Corinth.
  
  
• Acts 18:18-21: Paul visits Ephesus and Caesarea before returning to Antioch.
  
  
• Acts 19:1-22: Paul spends two years in Ephesus, a major city.
  
  
• Acts 20:16: Paul plans to visit the cities of Macedonia.
• Acts 21:1-17: Paul travels to Jerusalem, a major city.
  
  
• Acts 23-28: Paul is imprisoned and eventually brought to Rome, where he continues to preach the Gospel.
  

These are just a few examples of the disciples' journeys to cities throughout the book of Acts. Their actions demonstrate a clear commitment to engaging with urban populations and sharing the love of Christ with them.

• Romans
• 1 Corinthians
• 2 Corinthians
• Galatians
• Ephesians
• Philippians
• Colossians
• 1 Thessalonians
• 2 Thessalonians

These letters provide valuable insights into the lives and struggles of early Christians living in diverse urban contexts. They also serve as a reminder that the church has always been an urban phenomenon, deeply intertwined with the life and culture of cities. The Bible does not support the idea of fleeing cities. Instead, it encourages Christians to engage with them through love, service, and sharing the gospel.

The disciples' journeys throughout the book of Acts, as well as the numerous letters addressed to urban churches in the New Testament, provide ample evidence of this commitment to urban ministry.

Other than utterly disregarding the unique genre of early pre-fall Genesis, what other biblical verses do you have that command us to flee cities? Because as I keep saying - the New Testament presents the church as charging towards cities. The march towards cities is the march of the gospel mission to share Jesus with fallen people who need saving.

You would have us reverse all this on the basis of your misunderstanding of early Genesis.
Try again!

 

[FredVB]

I see not from the passages that there is endorsement for being in the city but rather the people of Israel in captivity might better prosper with not being antagonistic to the culture of the captors but to get along with them. It is a good principle overall. I am not against people being in community. There is real value in that.

You went on at length about being naked. I don't have the problem with that. If you see a problem with it, take it up with God who had people in God's design that way, people just as their natural selves without added layers considered needed or necessary. What you see against might be from culture you were raised with, or else from your impure mind. You should not then be among people where they do not wear clothes. But if you have a problem with it, it is not because they are doing anything wrong with the people just simply nude.

If you continue on with discussion here leave discussion of that topic out. It getting too much off topic.

Cities are just incidental to what is shown in biblical history. There really was not yet the issue in the world that there is now, but it would have been better for people to not be in cities. Most people were not, until not very much more than a century ago.