The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[FredVB]

No, but an incorrect futurist approach to Revelation can warp our daily lives here and now.

I don't basically disagree with the quite lengthy videos you show here, for the most part. Your issue is really over the understanding of the meaning of Mystery Babylon which I discuss. It changes none of what is discussed overall of the book of Revelation, and I did understand much of that. To focus, my life and my walk with God is not warped, but, I do see there are blind spots in the modern Christians view. There is reality being dismissed from the blind spots that are maintained.

If you yet disagree your focus needs to be why Mystery Babylon is anything else than what I discuss, with the reasons that establish what it is that isn't that.

 

[eclipsenow]

I don't basically disagree with the quite lengthy videos you show here, for the most part. Your issue is really over the understanding of the meaning of Mystery Babylon which I discuss. It changes none of what is discussed overall of the book of Revelation, and I did understand much of that. To focus, my life and my walk with God is not warped, but, I do see there are blind spots in the modern Christians view. There is reality being dismissed from the blind spots that are maintained.

If you yet disagree your focus needs to be why Mystery Babylon is anything else than what I discuss, with the reasons that establish what it is that isn't that.

I've already told you. Mystery Babylon isn't really a mystery. Babylon is Rome to John's audience - but to us who live beyond John's time - it's any regime that opposes God. If you can, get out! Just as Jewish Christians dispersed all over the Roman empire when the persecution came - taking the gospel with them. But if they're not persecuting you - they're not really Babylon are they? They might still be as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah though - tempting us to betray God. That's why we stay there. Because we are / were as bad as Sodom - in our hearts. Then Jesus saved us and made us clean. That's why we stay here. In the cities. Where the people are that Jesus died for and loves. So we can have a chance to share this good news with them.

Revelation speaks to people being tempted by Rome's wealth and power - and as far as I can tell - that's Christians tempted to 'trust in Trump' or whatever the modern equivalent is. Then there's those tempted to betray God because of Rome's persecutions - in which case it's time to flee! Because judgement is coming against such regimes - be they North Korea or Nazi Germany. These places will one day fall - but ultimately I think that vision from Revelation is one of eternal judgement - dressed up in the language of the unthinkable collapse of such regimes.

 

[FredVB]

I've already told you. Mystery Babylon isn't really a mystery. Babylon is Rome to John's audience - but to us who live beyond John's time - it's any regime that opposes God. If you can, get out! Just as Jewish Christians dispersed all over the Roman empire when the persecution came - taking the gospel with them. But if they're not persecuting you - they're not really Babylon are they? They might still be as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah though - tempting us to betray God. That's why we stay there. Because we are / were as bad as Sodom - in our hearts. Then Jesus saved us and made us clean. That's why we stay here. In the cities. Where the people are that Jesus died for and loves. So we can have a chance to share this good news with them.

Revelation speaks to people being tempted by Rome's wealth and power - and as far as I can tell - that's Christians tempted to 'trust in Trump' or whatever the modern equivalent is. Then there's those tempted to betray God because of Rome's persecutions - in which case it's time to flee! Because judgement is coming against such regimes - be they North Korea or Nazi Germany. These places will one day fall - but ultimately I think that vision from Revelation is one of eternal judgement - dressed up in the language of the unthinkable collapse of such regimes.

Yes, you told me, without proof that it would not be as I said. I do not have to prove it to you, and don't feel like I should. But there is information online enough to show what there is that would lead to collapse, this is a limited world which there is not enough consideration of, and from the start God gave us stewardship as our responsibility, and there is complete failure in that, and God hates that. As I showed.

Early believers would believe Rome was depicted. But it wasn't. Rome is like all the other great cities are.

Those remaining with the rest where they are, these days, are not like Christian believers that there were originally. Those now are compromised greatly with the culture around them, original believers from then if they somehow would see those now would not know at all what to make of them, whether Christian or not. Jesus Christ never called us to those differences, the surrounding culture did. And the society living on modern civilization is a part of the destructiveness to this world, which God hated. There are the scriptures I can show again.

Yes Jesus loves us and wants the gospel reaching anyone. If they are where destruction with their choices happens they should be told, that they can choose to depart from it. Many won't, but they won't become Christian either, it is fewer who do. Our example will count.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, you told me, without proof that it would not be as I said.

I hear you on you environmental concerns and potential for cities to collapse - I really do! Did you ever read the introduction chapter to “Ministry for the Future”? The author did so much research with climatologists - and then wrote such a compelling climate thriller - that he gets invited to COP meetings. The vital first chapter is free here. I wish every politician on the planet had to read this! THE MINISTRY FOR THE FUTURE

Questions: If it says what you think it says - why are there so many great big cities today? Why have they grown so far and fast? Why are they not already destroyed in judgment? And if you're reading it as a literal command to come out of a literal city - why oh why does Revelation 18 only mention one city? Why is it not listing today's thousands of cities that are destroying the environment? When is this meant to happen?

If no Christians are meant to live in cities ever - why is this vital unexpected command only in one of the 'judgement' sequences at the end of the most figurative and symbolic books of the bible? Where are the literal, plain, easy to understand commands in the epistles? Why didn't Jesus himself tell us clearly in his sermon on the Mount?

If every Christian on the planet leaves the big cities - who is going to be their conscience to try and get them to do the right thing?

Then: If it's a warning about our cities to come - what good has it been to the church for the last 2000 years?

Answer: Because the command to leave the big cities isn't there. Half the New Testament is named after letters to big cities. This is a symbolic description of judgement - a theological statement that God's enemies will not escape his judgment - not a command for Christians. If anything - the 'come out of her' isn't so much a command as a rescue. It's the call of God to escape the coming judgement! It's like Israel coming out of Egypt. And the pass-over lamb? Well - he has 7 horns and 7 eyes - perfect strength and knowledge to save us.

I think Dr Paul Barnett has some answers to these questions.

https://paulbarnett.info/2012/03/six-keys-to-unlock-revelation/

 

[FredVB]

I hear you on you environmental concerns and potential for cities to collapse - I really do! Did you ever read the introduction chapter to “Ministry for the Future”? The author did so much research with climatologists - and then wrote such a compelling climate thriller - that he gets invited to COP meetings. The vital first chapter is free here. I wish every politician on the planet had to read this! THE MINISTRY FOR THE FUTURE

Questions: If it says what you think it says - why are there so many great big cities today? Why have they grown so far and fast? Why are they not already destroyed in judgment? And if you're reading it as a literal command to come out of a literal city - why oh why does Revelation 18 only mention one city? Why is it not listing today's thousands of cities that are destroying the environment? When is this meant to happen?

If no Christians are meant to live in cities ever - why is this vital unexpected command only in one of the 'judgement' sequences at the end of the most figurative and symbolic books of the bible? Where are the literal, plain, easy to understand commands in the epistles? Why didn't Jesus himself tell us clearly in his sermon on the Mount?

If every Christian on the planet leaves the big cities - who is going to be their conscience to try and get them to do the right thing?

Then: If it's a warning about our cities to come - what good has it been to the church for the last 2000 years?

Answer: Because the command to leave the big cities isn't there. Half the New Testament is named after letters to big cities. This is a symbolic description of judgement - a theological statement that God's enemies will not escape his judgment - not a command for Christians. If anything - the 'come out of her' isn't so much a command as a rescue. It's the call of God to escape the coming judgement! It's like Israel coming out of Egypt. And the pass-over lamb? Well - he has 7 horns and 7 eyes - perfect strength and knowledge to save us.

I think Dr Paul Barnett has some answers to these questions.

https://paulbarnett.info/2012/03/six-keys-to-unlock-revelation/

First thank you for sharing that writing I have it still in a window on a browser I use. It is something to share.

You were just talking about Revelation being all full of symbolism. And you were saying the key to many symbols is use of other scripture passages. But you hold me to literalist understanding instead? Any great city is typified by the symbol of Mystery Babylon. Isaiah 24 shows parallels with there being collapse of all cities on earth. The traders and merchants moan and wail on their ships at a distance, they are ones that are left, with no trade available anymore. Why, if it was just one city??? Just move on, there would be other cities. Not worth even mentioning in scripture for one city. Really. No one city is worth that.

Through history that was not the main issue, while converting with the gospel and godliness is. But nothing is shown for moving to cities being necessary, or even better. What God said in the beginning was not repealed. The first city mentioned was subject to God and it collapsed with all people being dispersed. More cities later were subject to their doom, and there were still people needing to come out from where they were. The types are there. Narrowing down to some smaller part of the Bible left for it to be showing these things does not change where it does show.

Bibles are not to be thrown out and the Holy Spirit is not to be cast away. Why think what I say for this involves that?

If it is not apparent to leave cities yet, it will become more apparent. Some few see it now. I was in church, during worship, when it came to me, years ago, that hey, this final crisis to civilization is coming! It is real! I might have forgotten that, it just happens that I didn't. I really asked God to show me I was mistaken, that this was not from God. I didn't want to be wrong. If it was right I would have to start saying so. Who wants to hear this? But God never showed me it was wrong even though I kept asking. Over the years I saw more and more confirming it, and I am more sure it is coming, and there should be the alternative way to live away from cities. So I will leave for what is possible for that as soon as I might, but with others, who should also want to grow in godliness, I am sure this is the right way. And may others who do not see that see it soon. There is not great amounts of time to wait (for what) and live with the same pursuits in the cities. Nothing is changing politically for avoiding any one of many crises we are headed towards. Recent political developments should be taken into account regarding that.

 

[eclipsenow]

Which first city was judged? Are you talking about the flood? Wasn't that more of a universal judgement of humanity, not cities as such? You're just reading into the text whatever you want.

Just as Jesus used the image of the flood to describe the coming judgement day - so John uses a variety of symbols and images to describe the same. The fallen city is one such image - showing that in the end - all her wealth came to nothing. That's all John is saying! No more. No command to all Christians to come out of the all cities! Show me ONE OTHER APOSTOLIC COMMAND to do so? Or command from Jesus!? No? Nothing? Because it's not there!

Yet again - someone on the internet is using Revelation to support doing and thinking what ever they want. Surprise surprise.

Good luck with your permaculture village. It could be a lot of hard work, and not solve any of our major crises coming this way. I really hope you find some sort of peace there.

But the bible does not command it - and you are kidding yourself if you think it does.

Goodbye

 

[FredVB]

Of course I guess many Bible readers would understand the early city I mention is that with the tower being built, Babel, it also is a type.

Efforts to save civilization may be noble, while still with it continuing there is more destruction and ruining this world. It might not continue so long, but many people, if they leave cities and anything of civilization to live on land in small groups growing all they can there to subsist that way separately, would continue on, while civilization will not go on past the catastrophic disasters. It could not last forever in this limited world as it gets ruined with the demands that always will come with civilization. The technology that ruins this world cannot be what can save it.

Theoretical Physicists Say 90% Chance of Societal Collapse Within Several Decades

Deforestation and rampant resource use is likely to trigger the 'irreversible collapse' of human civilization unless we rapidly change course.

www.vice.com

Revelation 18:4-24
"Come out of her, my people, that you have no participation in her sins, and that you don’t receive of her plagues, for her sins have reached to the sky, and God has remembered her iniquities. Return to her just as she returned, and repay her double as she did, and according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix to her double. However much she glorified herself, and grew wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning. For she says in her heart, ‘I sit a queen, and am no widow, and will in no way see mourning.’ Therefore in one day her plagues will come: death, mourning, and famine; and she will be utterly burned with fire; for the Lord God who has judged her is strong. The kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived wantonly with her will weep and wail over her, when they look at the smoke of her burning, standing far away for the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For your judgment has come in one hour.’ The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more: merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, all expensive wood, every vessel of ivory, every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble; and cinnamon, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, sheep, horses, chariots, and people’s bodies and souls. The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you. All things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, will stand far away for the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was dressed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls! For in an hour such great riches are made desolate.’ Every ship master, and everyone who sails anywhere, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood far away, and cried out as they looked at the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like the great city?’ They cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her great wealth!’ For she is made desolate in one hour. Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints, apostles, and prophets; for God has judged your judgment on her.” A mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down, and will be found no more at all. The voice of harpists, minstrels, flute players, and trumpeters will be heard no more at all in you. No craftsman, of whatever craft, will be found any more at all in you. The sound of a mill will be heard no more at all in you. The light of a lamp will shine no more at all in you. The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will be heard no more at all in you; for your merchants were the princes of the earth; for with your sorcery all the nations were deceived. In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Isaiah 24:1-17
Yahweh makes the earth empty, makes it waste, turns it upside down, and scatters its inhabitants. It will be as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the creditor, so with the debtor; as with the taker of interest, so with the giver of interest. The earth will be utterly emptied and utterly laid waste; for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away. The world languishes and fades away. The lofty people of the earth languish. The earth also is polluted under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, and those who dwell therein are found guilty. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left. The new wine mourns. The vine languishes. All the merry-hearted sigh. The mirth of tambourines ceases. The sound of those who rejoice ends. The joy of the harp ceases. They will not drink wine with a song. Strong drink will be bitter to those who drink it. The confused city is broken down. Every house is shut up, that no man may come in. There is a crying in the streets because of the wine. All joy is darkened. The mirth of the land is gone. The city is left in desolation, and the gate is struck with destruction. For it will be so within the earth among the peoples, as the shaking of an olive tree, as the gleanings when the vintage is done. These shall lift up their voice. They will shout for the majesty of Yahweh. They cry aloud from the sea. Therefore glorify Yahweh in the east, even the name of Yahweh, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea! From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs. Glory to the righteous! But I said, “I pine away! I pine away! woe is me!” The treacherous have dealt treacherously. Yes, the treacherous have dealt very treacherously. Fear, the pit, and the snare, are on you who inhabit the earth.

 

[eclipsenow]

Of course I guess many Bible readers would understand the early city I mention is that with the tower being built, Babel, it also is a type.

Different theological point, different kind of judgement. The language John uses isn't necessarily the kind of language we would normally associated with the 'instant' judgement of God - which I personally imagine will be more like a nuke going off or Sodom and Gomorrah. But John wanted to emphasise that all Rome's wealth and riches would not save her - that people would weep as they saw how blind and naked she really was in what mattered.

Jesus often used parable and metaphor and stories: John does to.

There is no clear, plain language command to come out of cities.
None. Zero. Zip. Diddly-squat.

Efforts to save civilization may be noble,

No - they're biblical! We're trying to love our neighbour here! We're NOT to sit back and just let everything fall apart.

while still with it continuing there is more destruction and ruining this world.

Dude - technology. Clean energy will bring us back to so called "one planet living".
Recycling tech will eventually mature. Enzymes to recycle plastic properly AND cheaply, etc.
Ai droids could soon be building more droids - growing exponentially to the point where they can be out rewilding and replanting vast areas of nature. Hunting down pests and irrigating areas damaged by climate change.

It might not continue so long

Why?

but many people, if they leave cities and anything of civilization to live on land in small groups growing all they can there to subsist that way separately, would continue on,

Nope! NOPE NOPE NOPE! We've been over this before and you just ignored me then.
You've got this romantic view of how sweet and wonderful it would be.
It's called Neo-Romanticism - the bucolic farm - oh how gorgeous! But the reality seems to be that it would destroy nature - the very thing you're trying to reduce. The back to the land romanticism of the Degrowth Lifeboat culture says if we live off the land, we’ll protect it. But I think the evidence is if we depend on nature, we’ll eat it to death!

OLD FARMING TECH KILLS NATURE: ENGLISH — An ECOMODERNIST MANIFESTO

TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH TOO MANY PROBLEMS to realistically do this! There are too many of us living in countries without enough land to feed their own populations the Amish way. Who is going to help hundreds of millions move from some countries to other countries? Who is going to compensate the big land owners who must be divided up for all these billions leaving the cities and heading to the farms? Who is going to teach 4.3 billion newbie farmers how to farm? Some more logistics are spelt out here. The Cruel Fantasies of Well-Fed People

CLIMATE CHANGE HARDER ON SUBSISTENCE FARMING REGIONS: Indeed - it seems people are going to be FLEEING what we today think of as subsistence farming countries. Well - depending on how bad we let climate change get - 1 billion to 4 BILLION PEOPLE COULD BE ON THE MOVE by the end of this century. You're trying to tell us your ideology is to add to that? Good luck!

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1910114117

IT'S UNNECESSARY ANYWAY: Let's do regenerative farming. Let's clean up our transport systems with EV's powered by renewables. Then we can bring the food to the cities rather than the cities to the food! Seriously - we're talking about 4.3 BILLION people living in cities. Slow down and think. How much would it cost the environment to rebuild say a BILLION homes out in the farmlands that currently feed us? (You seem to want to pave over them with roads and more accommodation to spread the population out there!) Instead, the real emergency right now is clean energy to run those cities. If we clean that up - the impact of the cities on nature reduces dramatically. We can also take our time to get city planning right - as there are a variety of fantastic new methods of building everything from the Eco-apartment up to neighbourhoods to entire cities. Rezone

CITIES can do good things - like radically increase the wealth we need to fund keeping threatened species alive and running all sorts of conservation programs. Why innovation thrives in cities
Then cleaner recycling tech is on the way, and even clean food. (Precision Fermentation, protein from seaweed powder, etc, that take the burden OFF the land.)

IT JUST WILL NOT WORK! The trends show people want jobs - so they’re moving INTO cities - not out of them. Also… SUBSISTENCE FARMING INCREASES POPULATION, meaning there will be more consumers to eat nature to death! Reduce population growth

while civilization will not go on past the catastrophic disasters. It could not last forever in this limited world as it gets ruined with the demands that always will come with civilization. The technology that ruins this world cannot be what can save it.

I agree! But the technology that saves this world can save it.

Revelation 18:4-24

Yeah - and the answer to both passages is about going out and eating nature to death! Seriously - go look it up.
"Thou shalt flee the evil city, and go and eat all the wild animals and chop down all the trees to maketh dwellings for the 4.3 billion of you..."
Um, no. I'm doing this to illustrate the complete and utter lack of anything you're saying being in the bible. For what do BOTH of these passages say the answer to these evil cities is?

Godly cities! Ha ha ha - come on man. Don't you have anything better to throw at us?

 

[FredVB]

It started with where Babel was, with the tower being made from ambition, contrary to God, yet it would have been insignificant to the ambition now and all being built from that, while resources are taken with the world we have some responsibility for is being ruined with destruction, and God hates that.

There were the infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah subject to divine retribution, Jericho with its walls crumbling before the people of Israel, the downfall of Babylon, Tyre, the city that profited from Jerusalem’s destruction, the eventual doom of Nineveh the capital of the Assyrian Empire, the city of Ai which met its fate due to disobedience to God’s commands, the downfall of the city of Bethel for idol worship and its spiritual decline.

There were the civilizations of the Maya, the Indus River, the Anasazi, the Cahokia, Easter Island, and the vikings in Greenland, besides the others more familiar. Civilizations do collapse, it just will happen because they cannot continue beyond their bounds, though this happens with those to the end in denial of that so they head right toward the collapse.

Why These 6 Ancient Civilizations Mysteriously Collapsed

These six civilizations seemingly disappeared.

www.history.com

It is mostly neglected that I am speaking for vegan living. Using animals will not be sustainable, whether with civilization or completely apart from it, and use of products from them are not even healthier for us, I have abundant information for that. It is not what we were designed for to start with, and it necessarily will have to stop.

 

[eclipsenow]

It started with where Babel was, with the tower being made from ambition, contrary to God, yet it would have been insignificant to the ambition now and all being built from that, while resources are taken with the world we have some responsibility for is being ruined with destruction, and God hates that.

That's not the point of the story of Babel. It was a story about humanity united in defiance of God, staying in one place (rather than spreading out over the earth), and making a name for themselves rather than trusting in God to give them significance and protect them. The high tower is probably a Ziggurat and represents both being 'closer' to the gods and fortifications.

There is pride today, and no doubt higher towers in our cities. But that's not the point of the Babel story. Romans 1 more covers that sort of thought - where we are handed over to the consequences of our actions.

There were the infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah subject to divine retribution,

Absolutely! But again - they were not judged because they were cities - but because they were evil cities.

Jericho with its walls crumbling before the people of Israel,

Who then went in and took it over and lived there. Jericho wasn't destroyed - its walls were. Indeed, it is one of the oldest continually inhabited cities in the world - going back to about 9000 BC!

the downfall of Babylon,

It wasn't so much a downfall, as a gradual abandonment as wars kept sweeping through the region after Alexander the Great died.

Tyre, the city that profited from Jerusalem’s destruction,

What about Tyre? It had its ups and downs - with Alexander conquering one regime. But it seems to have always been rebuilt and resettled.

the eventual doom of Nineveh the capital of the Assyrian Empire,

From a biblical perspective this was a judgement of God for their actions against Israel (even though God used them to also judge Israel.) From a secular perspective - the collapse was due to war, not environmental collapse and unsustainability.

the city of Ai which met its fate due to disobedience to God’s commands, the downfall of the city of Bethel for idol worship and its spiritual decline.

There were the civilizations of the Maya, the Indus River, the Anasazi, the Cahokia, Easter Island, and the vikings in Greenland, besides the others more familiar. Civilizations do collapse, it just will happen because they cannot continue beyond their bounds, though this happens with those to the end in denial of that so they head right toward the collapse.

Why These 6 Ancient Civilizations Mysteriously Collapsed

These six civilizations seemingly disappeared.

www.history.com

Civilisations DO collapse! I've said it before - I have "Collapse" by Diamond and also Joseph Tainter's thesis on my bookshelves. I've almost "lived" in various collapse forums.

The difference today?

Theologically: "Rome" can be "God's servants to do you good" (Romans 13) or - if the regime switches to persecuting God's people (Christians) - can become a 'beast state' (Revelation. Eventually all such enemies of God will be destroyed. Ironically though we cannot say when or why. Rome itself fell when it was heavily Christianized!

Environmentally: many civilisations have come and gone - with MANY due to war, but also many due to the environmental collapse of the systems they depended on. The difference today? We have modern science to explore the risks, a free media to communicate it to the population, and an explosion in good technologies to undermine the harm we are doing.

Go back and spend some time reading ALL the links I provided in my last post!

So anyway - generally speaking I agree that the cities you mentioned in the bible did collapse. For being bad regimes, not necessarily for being cities. Rome is spoken of as both God's servants AND beasts - depending on when the authors were writing.

And the other civilisations that collapsed that you mentioned did so because of war and natural disasters and of course some environmental damage.

All of those things are true.

But they do not disprove - or even really address - the points I made in my last post!

Please go back and read through all those links, and think carefully about those points, before just replying and repeating the same old stuff yet again.

 

[FredVB]

I see information is distinct from propaganda. There is both denial happening and optimism happening for what there is no assurance of it stopping what happens to civilizations generally, while there is abundant evidence we are in the late stage of a civilization as shown from previous civilizations that collapsed. The difference now is civilization is now universally exclusive as the only one in the world, with all those civilized being connected through trade and information and other ways. There will not be another civilization to come picking everything up for all still left. There will be the one prophesied as the beast, the antichrist, who will have a very great following with his false and godless promises with what will be claimed of all being rebuilt from the ruins. Conjecture? Sure I admit it. I see it is most consistent with what I have studied. The verses work with this.

 

[eclipsenow]

Assertion and repetition are also distinct from clear and compelling arguments based on new data.
You've basically just asserted and repeated the same tired old arguments the last 10 or so posts without contributing anything new.

Also - on your last bit about the beast. This is a partial preterist believer's safe house. How do you interpret those words?

 

[FredVB]

Assertion and repetition are also distinct from clear and compelling arguments based on new data.
You've basically just asserted and repeated the same tired old arguments the last 10 or so posts without contributing anything new.

Also - on your last bit about the beast. This is a partial preterist believer's safe house. How do you interpret those words?

It is my conjecture, as I said, there is no certainty about the beast fitting in there but that is about the best I can do.

So I am repeating myself? It is an important issue, I had further links but decided against showing more, as these are not seriously taken into account. The point I would make is that there would have to be a vast conspiracy for all these separate accounts showing how probable a coming collapse is and that drastic change would be needed to avoid it. Here, drastic change I speak of is argued against. But there is no evidence to show of such a conspiracy, scientists and most certainly climate scientists are saying these same things. Where is evidence of organized collusion, for that?

 

[eclipsenow]

The point I would make is that there would have to be a vast conspiracy for all these separate accounts showing how probable a coming collapse is and that drastic change would be needed to avoid it.

CIRCULAR ARGUMENT: You have NOT proved that there is so much data that collapse is inevitable - let alone now making the assertion that it would have to be a conspiracy for it all to be fake! That's just assuming your conclusion to be true, and then arguing that because it's true that there's so much evidence, anyone disagreeing with your conclusion must be a bit funny in the head and believe in tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories? Um.... how about proving your conclusion to be true first?

RISKS are different to INEVITABLE CALAMITY: If we cannot get climate change under control - tens or hundreds of millions of people might be on the move. That in itself may mean some places collapse into warfare. I have never said everywhere will be safe from this. That's not my point! Of course the 4 horsemen ride across this world - quite frequently. Every time there's a war there's the death from war itself, but also the spread of disease and crazy high food prices and starvation. Cities or even nations in the path of these events may not make it. Think of Afghanistan as the Taliban took over, or Somalia, or the Syrian civil war (which is heating up again - this time without the support of Russia or Hezbollah), or the civil war in Sudan where millions are at risk of starvation! When you can't grow your food - you don't have an economy and then you don't have a government. Things get bad, fast. I've been reading about this stuff for 20 years.

My bookshelves have classics about the rise of civilisation - from Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel to Australian Historian Geoffrey Blainey's A Short History of the World. But on the flipside of the rise of civilisation you'll see the opposite theme. Classics like Joseph Tainter's The Collapse of Complex Societies, Jared Diamond's Collapse, and even Cormac McCarthy's The Road - all futures we desperately want to avoid.

I really, truly get that there are risks. Climate change and resource depletion and environmental degradation are real! There is no 'conspiracy' pushing the climate data - it's just science constantly researching how all this extra heat energy plays out in the global system and local ecosystems. The list of other environmental harms just goes on and on.

What you are stubbornly refusing acknowledge is that while there are all these risks, there are also solutions. You have not disproved them. You have asserted there are no solutions and tried little semantic games to disprove them. But they have not vanished under your scorn! There is no 'overwhelming evidence' that collapse is inevitable! It could happen. Trump could get in and push the big red button. But it doesn't have to - and the bible certainly does not say worldwide city collapse is inevitable. Judgement Day is much bigger than that - this whole world will be fixed and upgraded and repaired!

There are 8 billion people on earth. That's a lot of consumers! However, if only 1 in a million can make a breakthrough discovery in their life, that's 8000 break-throughs. Imagine someone invents a way to do more with less environmental harm - and gets a 5% improvement in one sector. Someone else comes up with a way to make it a bit cheaper and more appealing. Also - others are working on making using less in the first place more appealing. EG: The Minimalists, New Urban or Ecocity planners that could house us all on 1/5th to 1/10th the land, using more hemp and wood than concrete and steel - etc.

Our environmental Impact can be illustrated in the old formula:-

Impact = Population times Affluence (consumption) times Technology. ​

That is, if too many people consume too much stuff with the wrong fossil-fuel powered and extractive technologies - it multiplies the harm in all directions! We'll pick some arbitrary numbers to illustrate this in a hypothetical - imagine the above formula is a series of dials on a planetary dashboard. 10 is the worst on each dial. Where are we now? I would say we have a 10 on each dial - and the panel is lighting up with Red warning lights across the dashboard. 10 times 10 times 10 means we’ve hit 1000 - the death of the biosphere! 8 billion people all want to consume too much meat and metal and plastic in a modern American suburban lifestyle, all powered by oil and gas and coal and throw-away supply chains! RED ALERT! RED ALERT!

But the technologies I've talked about are real and growing super-fast! As they deploy - the risks reduce. That "T" starts to become a divider of harm, not multiplier. We can turn those "Red lights" down to "Amber". Real world measures by the Carbon Footprint group show that rolling out the Energy Transition would almost HALVE our global Impact as a species!

"The carbon Footprint is currently 60 percent of humanity’s overall Ecological Footprint and its most rapidly growing component. Humanity’s carbon Footprint has increased 11-fold since 1961. Reducing humanity’s carbon Footprint is the most essential step we can take to end overshoot and live within the means of our planet." Climate Change & the Carbon Footprint - Global Footprint Network

ENERGY TRANSITION: a quarter of our emissions come from agriculture and land use changes, the other 75% are from dirty fossil fuel energy. Therefore the 60% of carbon emissions is made up of 15% agriculture, 45% dirty energy. If renewables continue to grow exponentially we'll reduce our global environmental footprint by 45% - nearly half our impact!

HOPE: Renewables are growing exponentially. Global solar capacity used to double every 4 years - now it’s every 3. By 2031 there will be more solar than all other power sources combined! The fastest energy change in history still underway EV’s are also growing fast. The IEA says it’s so that demand for ALL fossil fuels will peak around 2030ish - and begin to decline thereafter. Global coal demand expected to decline in coming years - News - IEA Get your superannuation out of fossil fuels - because there are going to be TRILLIONS in stranded assets when this bubble bursts!

And we haven't really looked at the potential of regenerative agriculture, seaweed protein, or even my favourite - Precision Fermentation! That could return millions of hectares of land to natural ecosystems! But this post is long enough already.

 

[FredVB]

Yes, I cannot prove to you collapse is inevitable. It is not scientifically provable. There is abundance of information on civilizations rising and collapsing, and foreseen issues that with everything continuing make collapse within decades significantly more likely which, though showing this would not prove anything to you, though I would say it more than once. And the prophetic scriptures that go with this you can just say would just mean something else though sounding just like these things, as you do it fact say. Your understanding is that is not inevitable. And I might concede it is not inevitable, if we do things that really change everything. We are disagreeing then on what changes are needed to avoid collapse coming sooner. To say there is civilization that would never collapse still flies against the evidence. Would collapse be possibly far off? How much can it change, just for that? But especially that we were were told to start with, having the model of the garden of Eden with everything growing for our needs and everything, that we would work at the ground for that with our sweat and with there being thorns and thistles. This was still the work for us, since leaving the garden of Eden. It was people trying to get out from that, which they did with exploiting things and exploiting others. That continued, it is the whole and entire history of cities.

There were breakthroughs to extend things. All the hope that can be stated is for more breakthrough. At some time the breakthroughs will come to an end and more hoped for breakthroughs will not come. They can't continue civilization forever, this world is still limited and I can say it is not designed for that. Where was there ever stewardship to this earth that God meant us to show? That is what being in the image of God would have showing.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, I cannot prove to you collapse is inevitable. It is not scientifically provable. There is abundance of information on civilizations rising and collapsing, and foreseen issues that with everything continuing make collapse within decades significantly more likely which, though showing this would not prove anything to you, though I would say it more than once.

Yes - you do say things more than once.
No - you do not prove anything by repeating it.

Here's the biggest difference between all those old civilisations and today. The scientific method. Then - if you had bothered to read some of the experts in this that I have referred to above, there is also the communication of the facts to those in power. Now - with Donald Trump coming in to power in America - that raises their risk profile significantly. But with a 'free media' we can at least have millions of people investigating what is happening with our food systems, different species, ecosystems, etc. People on their home computers can see what is happening and write to their local political representative. As corrupt and nepotistic as today's democracies are - they're lightyears ahead of the ancient emperors - who in their arrogance often completely ignored the warning signs.

And the prophetic scriptures that go with this you can just say would just mean something else

No - I don't say they say something else. They ACTUALLY say something else! They say ROME (aka "Mystery Babylon") would come to judgement for persecuting God's people. Not for being a city! That's your invention. That's NOT in the text! But what is across the whole book of Revelation? Persecution of God's people. God's martyrs crying out before the throne - "How long O Lord?" That!

Now - I also think we can show from the bible that God cares immensely about his creation. It's his, not ours! We are just stewards. But you absolutely have not demonstrated that God hates the very idea of cities.

You just sidestep the fact that the chapters you 'quote' judge bad cities, and replace them with Godly cities!​

Your understanding is that is not inevitable.

My 'understanding' is that you are selectively ripping 2 chapters out of context and trying to twist the bible into backing your romantic 'back to the land' schtick.

To say there is civilization that would never collapse still flies against the evidence.

It depends on what you mean by collapse. The Soviet Union collapsed. Is that what you mean?

having the model of the garden of Eden with everything growing for our needs and everything, that we would work at the ground for that with our sweat

Going back to 'natural farming' would DOUBLE the amount of land required to feed the world! By contrast, the modern technology that has allowed modern cities REDUCES has HALVED the impact of each person. If you want to DESTROY NATURE - flee the cities and go back to the land! For when we depend on nature alone - we eat it to death! ENGLISH — An ECOMODERNIST MANIFESTO

By rinsing and repeating, you just sidestep the fact that going back to the land would double the land required - and double our harm to nature!​

There were breakthroughs to extend things. All the hope that can be stated is for more breakthrough. At some time the breakthroughs will come to an end and more hoped for breakthroughs will not come.

Yes - the world is limited.

That's why going back to the land would kill the last surviving bits of the biosphere and be a crime against God, our fellow citizens, and nature itself.

They can't continue civilization forever,

Why not? Renewable energy from renewable materials - and everything in cycles. When you get down to it - the Green civilisation we are deploying almost functions like an ecosystem. Like nature itself - but more intentional.

this world is still limited

It sure is! Your policies would DESTROY IT! Do you want to DOUBLE the impact per person? "Hey buddy - how about joining me and we'll try and live like we're in Eden (even though the bible says we're not!). Then we'll ignore loving God with our MINDS. Science? Wisdom - to know how to live in God's world appropriately? Nah - we don't need any of that. We're going BACK TO THE LAND because that's what it says in Genesis 1 to 3! (Even though we're living in times way past all that.) Oh - and green energy that could halve our environmental impact? We don't need that. When we get cold or need to cook - we'll chop down more trees! What - we're running out of trees? Don't you worry about that pal - we're in Eden!"

You need to deal with the evidence, not just rinse and repeat the same comment 1000 times!

 

[FredVB]

Well I try not to address you, you had made it sound like you were finished. For your sake I will still try to avoid a repetition, for awhile, though the same things will need to be said for others.

I do not have that great faith that you have. I fully trust God. But I mean you trust the scientific method and breakthroughs, fully. Where has that gotten us? Nothing of the destruction to this earth, that God hates, and yes God hates it, is even slightly reversed, ever. Your unseen breakthroughs will do that, though. But I do not see that, nothing has happened for it, and I do not have that faith. I can't, it isn't real to me. The best I can say for options left is that the catastrophes that would come, and the collapse of civilization that like all civilizations will come, would be delayed. But then if so I believe, very realistically, destruction to the earth which is not designed for sustaining such civilization will continue. I see what it is doing, I can't have that faith you do.

 

[eclipsenow]

Well I try not to address you, you had made it sound like you were finished.

I thought I was.

For your sake I will still try to avoid a repetition, for awhile, though the same things will need to be said for others.

I don't see anyone else in here?

I do not have that great faith that you have. I fully trust God. But I mean you trust the scientific method and breakthroughs, fully. Where has that gotten us?

I am an environmentalist and am concerned for the environment. I am also a Christian and am concerned for people. You seem to forget that next bit! As a Christian - your duty is to think about how we can improve the life of both people AND planet. Not just planet!

MEDICINE: Modern medicine helps the sick! My son would have died when he was 5 because he had blood cancer. My niece would have died when she was 3 because she got Covid which triggered her Type 1 diabetes. My father would have died 20 years ago due to heart complications.

MIND: We are loving God with our whole minds when we do science. We are studying his world. Buy "Unnatural Enemies" from Matthias Media to get a grasp of how widely influenced the development of science has been by Christians. Or listen to this episode. Science

Nothing of the destruction to this earth, that God hates, and yes God hates it, is even slightly reversed, ever.

(Coughs) - What? Go back and read through my links. Have you read ONE of them?
If you had - you would at least know that burning coal was at first fantastic for the environment. Why? It let trees regrow across Europe! ENGLISH — An ECOMODERNIST MANIFESTO

Have you never seen a mine restored? A barren plain replanted with trees?

Northern India was mostly desert - as the once a year monsoon just washed away the topsoil and left the place barren. But they built swales - methods of digging into the landscape to let the water soak in. Regenerative farming methods have slowed water and increased production and brought the land back to life. This is ONE instance where 'small scale farmers' are healing the land. But otherwise - as I have shown above - small scale farming without modern technology and fertilizers would double the land required to feed us - and therefore double the environmental harm. Some of these projects use a mix of modern satellite data to map the landscape and then give that information with ancient, low-tech systems of slowing water.

Your unseen breakthroughs will do that, though. But I do not see that, nothing has happened for it, and I do not have that faith. I can't, it isn't real to me.

Then study it! See - you're lumping everything in together. Science, greedy corporations, greedy people, bad technology, unwise environmental legislation - what we might call the modern world. You're looking at that with the reaction it deserves - which is "Yuk!" I agree!

But you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Advances in science have enabled some of these things, yes. But do not forget what I said above! You can't just 'look away' and ignore this - as it is the heart of the argument!

The REAL experts who measure our global environmental footprint have said something you obviously deny. That clean energy has the potential to about HALVE our environmental impact. As I said, above, those "Red lights" on the global environmental monitor would turn down to "Amber".

Please address this FACT!​

(See what I did there? Red to Amber?)

"The carbon Footprint is currently 60 percent of humanity’s overall Ecological Footprint and its most rapidly growing component. Humanity’s carbon Footprint has increased 11-fold since 1961. Reducing humanity’s carbon Footprint is the most essential step we can take to end overshoot and live within the means of our planet." Climate Change & the Carbon Footprint - Global Footprint Network

Ha ha ha - this is just for fun - but I tried to get an AI to illustrate this.

Anyway - the point is abundant clean energy will help reduce our impact. Otherwise, given past behaviour of our ancestors just before the industrial revolution, and given there are now SO MANY OF US - we would cut down every last tree to cook with!

The best I can say for options left is that the catastrophes that would come, and the collapse of civilization that like all civilizations will come, would be delayed.

First - ever since we invented nuclear bombs the end of the world has only been half an hour away. I'm sorry to say it, but living outside of the big cities isn't going to save you - even if you have a radiation proof bunker to stay in for a month to escape the fallout. If you're in the northern hemisphere, the latest science from Australian bushfires shows nuclear winter to be bad. Really bad! 360 million people die in the nuclear blasts - but about 5 BILLION people starve to death in the nuclear winter in the years following! Only 1% of the northern hemisphere survives!
But Australia and Argentina are warmed by our oceans and apparently can feed ourselves. Society would 'simplify' - with a lot of our supply lines gone we would need something like a 'Disaster Resources Board' to help the government co-ordinate important resources to be distributed through the economy. I've written about that here. It's the most depressing page on my blog, and I try to be an optimist! But the science is the science.

But as to you basically asserting that our technology and systems are not good enough to continue civilisation without collapse? All I've got from your last 20 posts is your opinion. There's no data to back it. You may as well be telling me about your bad dreams for all the good that is.

You're actually discussing this in bad faith now. It's time to come clean!

For what feels like the 10th time:-​

1. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact?​

2. When are you going to answer FACT that the biblical chapters you referenced did not judge them for being cities - but for being ungodly cities. And what was the answer in these chapters? Moving out into permaculture villages? NO! They would be replaced with Godly cities!​

3. When are you going to answer the FACT that going back to the land would double the land required - and not be geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the true environmental cost of your proposed solution?​

 

[FredVB]

I don't see anyone else in here?

I am an environmentalist and am concerned for the environment. I am also a Christian and am concerned for people. You seem to forget that next bit! As a Christian - your duty is to think about how we can improve the life of both people AND planet. Not just planet!

MEDICINE: Modern medicine helps the sick! My son would have died when he was 5 because he had blood cancer. My niece would have died when she was 3 because she got Covid which triggered her Type 1 diabetes. My father would have died 20 years ago due to heart complications.

MIND: We are loving God with our whole minds when we do science. We are studying his world. Buy "Unnatural Enemies" from Matthias Media to get a grasp of how widely influenced the development of science has been by Christians. Or listen to this episode. Science


(Coughs) - What? Go back and read through my links. Have you read ONE of them?
If you had - you would at least know that burning coal was at first fantastic for the environment. Why? It let trees regrow across Europe! ENGLISH — An ECOMODERNIST MANIFESTO

Have you never seen a mine restored? A barren plain replanted with trees?
View attachment 358299

View attachment 358300


View attachment 358301

View attachment 358302

Northern India was mostly desert - as the once a year monsoon just washed away the topsoil and left the place barren. But they built swales - methods of digging into the landscape to let the water soak in. Regenerative farming methods have slowed water and increased production and brought the land back to life. This is ONE instance where 'small scale farmers' are healing the land. But otherwise - as I have shown above - small scale farming without modern technology and fertilizers would double the land required to feed us - and therefore double the environmental harm. Some of these projects use a mix of modern satellite data to map the landscape and then give that information with ancient, low-tech systems of slowing water.

View attachment 358304

View attachment 358303



Then study it! See - you're lumping everything in together. Science, greedy corporations, greedy people, bad technology, unwise environmental legislation - what we might call the modern world. You're looking at that with the reaction it deserves - which is "Yuk!" I agree!

But you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Advances in science have enabled some of these things, yes. But do not forget what I said above! You can't just 'look away' and ignore this - as it is the heart of the argument!

The REAL experts who measure our global environmental footprint have said something you obviously deny. That clean energy has the potential to about HALVE our environmental impact. As I said, above, those "Red lights" on the global environmental monitor would turn down to "Amber".

Please address this FACT!​

(See what I did there? Red to Amber?)

"The carbon Footprint is currently 60 percent of humanity’s overall Ecological Footprint and its most rapidly growing component. Humanity’s carbon Footprint has increased 11-fold since 1961. Reducing humanity’s carbon Footprint is the most essential step we can take to end overshoot and live within the means of our planet." Climate Change & the Carbon Footprint - Global Footprint Network

Ha ha ha - this is just for fun - but I tried to get an AI to illustrate this.

View attachment 358305


Anyway - the point is abundant clean energy will help reduce our impact. Otherwise, given past behaviour of our ancestors just before the industrial revolution, and given there are now SO MANY OF US - we would cut down every last tree to cook with!



First - ever since we invented nuclear bombs the end of the world has only been half an hour away. I'm sorry to say it, but living outside of the big cities isn't going to save you - even if you have a radiation proof bunker to stay in for a month to escape the fallout. If you're in the northern hemisphere, the latest science from Australian bushfires shows nuclear winter to be bad. Really bad! 360 million people die in the nuclear blasts - but about 5 BILLION people starve to death in the nuclear winter in the years following! Only 1% of the northern hemisphere survives!
But Australia and Argentina are warmed by our oceans and apparently can feed ourselves. Society would 'simplify' - with a lot of our supply lines gone we would need something like a 'Disaster Resources Board' to help the government co-ordinate important resources to be distributed through the economy. I've written about that here. It's the most depressing page on my blog, and I try to be an optimist! But the science is the science.

But as to you basically asserting that our technology and systems are not good enough to continue civilisation without collapse? All I've got from your last 20 posts is your opinion. There's no data to back it. You may as well be telling me about your bad dreams for all the good that is.

You're actually discussing this in bad faith now. It's time to come clean!

For what feels like the 10th time:-​

1. When are you going to acknowledge the FACT that environmental scientists have stated that clean energy ALONE would nearly halve our TOTAL environmental impact?​

2. When are you going to answer FACT that the biblical chapters you referenced did not judge them for being cities - but for being ungodly cities. And what was the answer in these chapters? Moving out into permaculture villages? NO! They would be replaced with Godly cities!​

3. When are you going to answer the FACT that going back to the land would double the land required - and not be geographically possible for many nations anyway - and would require building housing for 4 BILLION people overnight! What is the true environmental cost of your proposed solution?​

This is a pinned thread, right? So, others would see it, at least the latest posts on it, sometime.

Alright, you care about environments and you are not a denier. I find too many who are such and don't care about environments, and they have in common with you their own separate understanding of passages. It is not that I don't neglect your explanation of passages I refer to but there is no basis to dismiss my explanation. So since I do not keep repeating what you have not disproved anyway I speak directly to what is happening now with issues to the world with our civilization in it, coming toward collapse, and many see it, and it was seen as early as the 1970s with computer data being used. It was not definitive then, but was looking to how it would go if everything continued the same way. But, it has continued so. You do show things being done for the good of environments. I am glad those things are done, but that is not sufficient for giving me enough optimism to forget to give these warnings. What I actually see is something like you being wounded and dealing with it putting band-aids on, while you are yet being wounded. Stopping from letting yourself being wounded is much more important. You want the same standard people have with modern civilization and believe in planting more trees will be the solution for that. But more is taken with the demand on this world while climate change is not slowing but seen to be worsening, even right now, and Trump in office will further that. Species are going extinct at a tremendously great rate. Rainforest are being rapidly destroyed, oceans are being depleted of fish and other sealife, with dead zones expanding. Civilization is here still contributing to the worsening while resources for it are getting used up.

 

[eclipsenow]

Good point - this page is pinned. I'll keep that in mind and try to watch my tone. (Sorry - I sometimes get a bit snarky because I really DO care about climate change and the many other combined threats to us. You should see me in a thread here where there are climate deniers! Brother - I'm with you more than I'm against you.) However:-

THE BIBLE IS NOT AGAINST CITIES​

How do you maintain that your interpretation of your few passages shows the bible IS against big cities - when the answer at the end of those passages you refered to in Isaiah and Revelation is .... big cities? Godly cities? The end of your Isaiah passage refers to Jerusalem and the temple. And the end of Revelation is even more dramatic! John loves doing "compare and contrast" throughout Revelation. The mark of the beast replaces the daily Hebrew prayer (when they were metaphorically meant to have the Torah on their forehead and the back of their hand) - but in the next chapter GOD gives the martyrs a white stone with their secret name on it on their forehead. See? Compare and contrast. Living for wealth and today's power is like praying to the emperor - the mark of the beast - but living for God gives you something different.

In the same way the end of Revelation answers the problem of the evil city of Babylon with the arrival of God's city of New Jerusalem. It's symbolic writing - but look at this symbol! John uses the Hebrew number 1000 (which in modern slang would mean "A bajillion") as the way he multiplies out the dimensions of the temple city described in Ezekiel. It's 1000 times bigger! As wikipedia points out: ""One of the most obvious differences is that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21 are 1,000 times bigger than the dimensions of the city in Ezekiel 48 (and, in Rev. 20:9). New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is 2,225 km in length, width, and height. A city of these gigantic proportions cannot be located on Earth; but, as stated in Rev. 21, the city comes "down out of Heaven from God", presumably onto, the "new earth."" New Jerusalem - Wikipedia
Whatever else Revelation might be saying about Babylon - it's NOT that it is evil mainly because it is a city. That absolutely CANNOT be the message because the answer to evil Babylon is a gigantic cube-shaped city 2,225 km on each side - and that high! That's thousands of kilometres into space!

THE CLUB OF ROME'S LIMITS TO GROWTH​

You've referred to the computer model by the Club of Rome that was eventually written up as the controversial book the Limits to Growth. It asks all the right questions! But unfortunatley it had an overly pessimistic tone because many of the technologies we see taking over today - like clean solar power - were literally thousands of times more expensive than they are now. It has some important concepts - but was an early attempt. The Limits to Growth - Wikipedia

EG: Human population growth rates peaked decades ago and are still declining - and very soon! We know a lot more about the Demographic Transition than they did back then. We can map it out - and see it happening before our eyes. The global population will hit something like 9 or 10 billion in the next few decades and could really start to decline after that. We know that the very lifestyle you recommend - subsistence farming - increases population growth! For the same reasons that a big family was considered a blessing from God in the bible! Why? So you had someone to work the farm when you were old - so you wouldn't starve to death as you became old and infirm. Modern big city living with modern economic pressures decreases population growth.

THE CLUB OF ROME'S SISTER ORGANISATION MAPS SOLUTIONS​

Johan Rockstrom is a climatologist AND a Planetary Boundaries expert who writes for the Club of Rome's sister organistion "Earth for all". If ANYONE on earth gets the state of the earth - he does. He's 'the man'. He has developed the Planetary Boundries framework that results in the following "dashboard" of alarms for planet earth.

Planetary boundaries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In one talk he asks, given how dangerous climate change is and how we've known about it for decades, why the world has not already just BANNED fossil fuels? He compared it to the hole in the ozone layer. Within a few years of discovering how CFC's were harming the ozone layer which is critical for blocking cancer-causing UV light, representatives from world governments were meeting in Montreal, Canada. It was remarkable. They signed the Montreal Protocol that just plain BANNED CFCs! The world as one said "NO MORE CFCS!" Boom. Done. It happened for CFC's. So why not with coal and gas and oil?

The answer? It's obvious. With CFC’s there was a cheap and easy alternative propellant already available. But energy is fundamentally different. First - we rely on it for our very lives and food - as without the Haber-Bosch process which draws nitrogen fertilizer out of the air - billions would starve to death. Everything we use has been mined and refined and cut and shaped and grown and packaged and transported with energy. If we just banned energy without phasing it out slowly - and radically de-industrialising (which no one apart from a few hippies wanted to do) - billions would have died in the chaos.

Second - there was no obvious cheap alternative at the time. It involves the physics of mining and moving large and heavy things, or doing incredibly energetic things. Our whole modern world is built on energy - with every calorie we eat taking about 10 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce it.

Yet today - even Johan has hope. After decades of subsidies and technical innovation, wind and solar are now cheaper than coal - and growing exponentially. During the 20th century the growth in oil consumption was astonishing. It doubled every decade! But solar is doubling every 3 years - which is 8 times in a decade (or growing 4 times faster than oil). By 2030 it will be the majority form of power on the planet - more than all the oil and gas and coal and nuclear and even wind - combined! In other words - we are close to fossil fuel's "Montreal Moment".
I timed it to where Johan talks about this.

BUT IT DOESN'T END THERE​

As I have said, Johan writes for "Earth 4 All" - a sister organisation to the Club of Rome. They have policies for every sector you can imagine. They have 5 'Turnarounds'.

Here is a vastly simplified summary. Start by reading this.

Five extraordinary turnarounds | Earth4All

Earth4All proposes five extraordinary turnarounds to transform the global economic system and achieve wellbeing for all on a finite planet.

earth4all.life

This simplified graphic is based on enormous research. Just the Executive Summary on this page is a PDF 29 pages long. (At the top - Earth for All - English). The actual papers are across the base of this web page - with just the paper on Energy being 20 pages long in itself. Publications

SUMMARY: There really are awful risks to the environment and civilisation itself. But there really are answers. The question is - are you going to be one who unwittingly does big oil's job for them - and discourages people from the very real answers? Are you going to continue to push the idea that people have to go live with you on some hippie commune? (Got any recruits yet?) That we all have to live like the Amish or we're going to die? If that's your message - you are helping big oil. They are now funding energy sceptics and Doomers - as it destroys hope and then activism against their product.