The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

ebedmelech said:

I view Armegeddon as the end of spiritual warfare for God's people. This is not a physical battle...it goes back to Paul advising us to put on the full armor of God beginning at Ephesians 6:10.

This battle goes on continuously and we are to be fully engaged with the full armor of God on...For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

I really like that passage put to music by Integrity Music:

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LittleLambofJesus said:

I don't agree with that.
Both Armageddon and Gog Magog are shown to be real battles as prophecied in the OT and NT [Olivet Discourse]

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whole home-land<3625>, to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the great Day of the God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddon<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog and Magog,
to be together-leading/gathering/sunagagein <4863> them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Se<2281>a.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Is this a spiritual or physical event?

Revelation 19:17 And I another Messenger having stood in the sun,
and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered!/sunagesqe <4863> into the great Supper of the GOD.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings and fleshes of thousand-chiefs<5506> and fleshes of strong ones, and fleshes of horses and of the ones sitting on them and fleshes of all free ones<1658> besides also slaves<1401> and of small ones and of great ones<3173>
......[Zeph 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]
===========================
"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation
Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation [Eschatology 11-2-18]

4430. ptoma from the alternate of 4098;
a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.... occurs 5 times in 4 verses

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures be gathered together.

4983 soma from 4982;
the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave..................occurs 146 times in 122 verses

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures be gathered together.'


Revelation 18:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

13“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies<4983> and souls of men.

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ebedmelech said: ↑
I view Armegeddon as the end of spiritual warfare for God's people. This is not a physical battle...it goes back to Paul advising us to put on the full armor of God beginning at Ephesians 6:10.

This battle goes on continuously and we are to be fully engaged with the full armor of God on...For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

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LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I don't agree with that.
Both Armageddon and Gog Magog are shown to be real battles as prophecied in the OT and NT [Olivet Discourse]

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ebedmelech said:

I welcome your disagreement. Let me correct myself in what I said. I confused Armageddon with the battle of Gog and Magog, which is Revelation 20. Which I view as the end of spiritual warfare. There is no battle because Revelation 20:9 makes that clear.

When it comes to Armageddon, that is the Judgement of Jerusalem. Revelation 16, 17, and 18 make that pretty clear.

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When it comes to Armageddon, that is the Judgement of Jerusalem. Revelation 16, 17, and 18 make that pretty clear.

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ebedmelech said:

Chiming in here to through out how Christ fulfilled all the feasts given under the Law.

There's a thread on "Are The Feast Of The Lord Fulfilled?" in the Eschatology Forum. I submitted this in response to a poster who believes the fall feast remain to be fulfilled.

I think this answers HOW Christ fulfilled them...and I say that because Paul tells us as Christians, we no longer need to observe these feasts in Colossians 2:16, 17:
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Christ is the "REAL STUFF" of these feast...and He fulfilled everyone this way:

The Feast Of The Lord Fulfilled In Christ:

Passover Feast - John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". This is what the feast pointed to. Jesus sacrifice for our sins. Furthermore Paul clearly says this is so in 1 Corinthians 5:7:
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

Feast of Unleavened Bread - Leaven was symbolic of sin when Christ died he was without sin. Paul make the point very well in 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8:
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The Feast of Firstfruits - Fulfilled by Christ resurrection! as 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 says:
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Furthermore a passage in Matthew 27 that many ignore makes the point many were resurrected when Christ ascended...as Matthew 27:50-52:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
These who were raised with Christ, are also the firstfruits...and they went with Jesus to THE JERUSALEM ABOVE and appeared to the heavenly host!!!

Feast of Penetecost - Pentecost occurred 50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the firstfruits and 50 days later on Pentecost the harvest began. That's why Jesus told the disciples in Matthew 9:38:
38 Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

The apostles began the work of the harvest on Pentecost...and Jesus is LORD OF THE HARVEST!

Feast of Trumpets - This feasts gathered all of God's people for a sabbath rest. This is the one feast that most erroneously attributes to 1 Corinthians 15 51, 52 where Paul speaks of the "last trumpet"...but as Leviticus 23:23-25 tells us the blowing of the trumpets was for a sabbath rest and a offering to the Lord:
23 Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
24 “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
25 You shall not do any laborious work, but you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord.’”

Christ fulfills the Feast of Trumpets because we REST in Jesus and offer ourselves as a living sacrifice to Him!!! Jesus said in Matthew 11:28, 29:
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

The Day of Attonement - It should be easy as Hebrews 9:11, 12:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Clearly fulfilled in Christ!

Feats of Tabernacles - This feast is misunderstood basically because of the prophecy of Zechariah 14:16...which says
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

What's really missed in this passage is The Feast of Tabernacles (Booths), speaks of when we finally dwell with God, as Revelation 21:3 says:
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
How did Christ fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles? He came from heaven to dwell among us as John 1:14 says:
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Furthermore when Jesus went to the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7:37, 38 He said:
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”

At verse 39 we get the idea of HOW the Feast of Tabernacles is again fulfilled:
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Christ dwells in us by the Holy Spirit! He said again in John 14:23, Jesus paints the picture of the Feast of Tabernacles:
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

I welcome any comments...

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ebedmelech said: ↑
Chiming in here to through out how Christ fulfilled all the feasts given under the Law.

There's a thread on "Are The Feast Of The Lord Fulfilled?" in the Eschatology Forum. I submitted this in response to a poster who believes the fall feast remain to be fulfilled.

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ralliann said:

This modern teaching on the feasts disturbs me. The fall feasts include atonement for sin. So many people don't think about that. Had a family member talk about she learned about the feasts at bible study. I told her the fall feasts not being fulfilled means Jesus has not made an atonement for sin yet. She just sat there stunned not recognizing the significance of it until I said it.

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dfw69 said:

Jesus said concerning Passover do this in remembrance of me
The days come when nations will observe tabernacles
Are there other feast that will continue to be observed?

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LittleLambofJesus said:

I found that thread and am reading thru it now........fascinating study........

Are the feast days fulfilled?

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1disciple said:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. -- Matt. 25:1-13

Stryper - Not That Kind Of Guy. - YouTube

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William Lefranc said:

What is your take on the meaning of the ten virgins?

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parousia70 said:

This From Parable of the 10 Virgins, Matthew 25, Future or AD 70? |

I tend to agree with their points:

First, the marriage of the bridegroom occurs after the city is destroyed. This follows the same pattern as that found in Revelation 18 and 19, when the harlot city, Mystery Babylon is destroyed.

Secondly, the parable occurs within the lifetime of the same virgins who took the oil. It is not an event which begins with one generation of virgins and ends 20 centuries later with another group of virgins.

Since it is not true that these virgins could have lived almost 2,000 years, it makes the point that “all these things” would take place before that generation passed away.

This shows the unbroken link between Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.
Thirdly, the idea of “shutting the door” marks the time of judgment. In keeping with the first century context, Luke shows to whom this language is addressed.
Jesus’ ministry involved teaching in cities and villages in Palestine, mostly Galilee and in Jerusalem. When he arises to shut the door, as indicated in the parable, many stand outside and knock saying Lord, Lord open to us.

He refuses, and they then begin to answer, ‘We ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets.’” (Luke 13:25, 27)
There is only one generation of people who could ever claim to have eaten and drank in the presence of Christ. “And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, ‘This man receives sinners and eats with them,’” (Lk. 15:1)

Speaking of those who murdered John, the Baptist, Jesus asked, “But to what shall I liken this generation?” (Matt. 11:16)

He said, that same generation spoke of him, saying, “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, “look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! (Matt. 11:19)

The point is that it is the same generation who charged him as a glutton and winebibber who ate with sinners and in whose streets he taught, that were shut out when they arose to enter at the time of the judgment/wedding.

Therefore, the parable of the 10 virgins, Matthew 25, is but a continuation of Jesus’ discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24, all of which occurred before that 1st century generation passed.

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parousia70 said:

This From Parable of the 10 Virgins, Matthew 25, Future or AD 70? |

I tend to agree with their points:


First, the marriage of the bridegroom occurs after the city is destroyed. This follows the same pattern as that found in Revelation 18 and 19, when the harlot city, Mystery Babylon is destroyed.

Secondly, the parable occurs within the lifetime of the same virgins who took the oil. It is not an event which begins with one generation of virgins and ends 20 centuries later with another group of virgins.

Since it is not true that these virgins could have lived almost 2,000 years, it makes the point that “all these things” would take place before that generation passed away.

This shows the unbroken link between Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.

Thirdly, the idea of “shutting the door” marks the time of judgment. In keeping with the first century context, Luke shows to whom this language is addressed.

Jesus’ ministry involved teaching in cities and villages in Palestine, mostly Galilee and in Jerusalem. When he arises to shut the door, as indicated in the parable, many stand outside and knock saying Lord, Lord open to us.

He refuses, and they then begin to answer, ‘We ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets.’” (Luke 13:25, 27)

There is only one generation of people who could ever claim to have eaten and drank in the presence of Christ. “And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, ‘This man receives sinners and eats with them,’” (Lk. 15:1)

Speaking of those who murdered John, the Baptist, Jesus asked, “But to what shall I liken this generation?” (Matt. 11:16)

He said, that same generation spoke of him, saying, “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, “look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! (Matt. 11:19)

The point is that it is the same generation who charged him as a glutton and winebibber who ate with sinners and in whose streets he taught, that were shut out when they arose to enter at the time of the judgment/wedding.

Therefore, the parable of the 10 virgins, Matthew 25, is but a continuation of Jesus’ discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24, all of which occurred before that 1st century generation passed.

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William Lefranc said:

Thank you for your response, but I was looking for some sort of insight on the meaning of the 10 virgins in a contextual form. In other words, what do the 10 virgins represent in the story that Jesus told His hearers about what the kingdom of God was like?

Although I'm leaning towards the idea that the 10 virgins represented old covenant Israel, I'm open for other insights. The fact that five of them didn't have enough oil (insight into the kingdom of God mysteries?) is at least to me, is an indication that the nation of Israel was divided whether to believe or to reject Him as their promised Messiah.

Fifty percent were ready while the other fifty percent were not. Half went one way, while the other half was on the right track. The fact that all 10 (ten is the number of completion) fell asleep indicates that the entire nation was expecting another kind of king in the likes of King David. An earthly, political and bloody king that would deal with the Romans, but not with the issues of the heart.

To them, the sin-issue was "kind of a problem" because they had to offer sacrifices on a regular basis at the temple in order to cover them, but the greater problem was the Romans, that is, their physical enemies, not the greater problem that lay within. This is why all ten fell asleep.

On the other hand, the coming of the bridegroom, to them (IMO), meant that the wedding feast would connect them forever with the Bridegroom, but not God's way, but their way. So, five of them (50%) were ready (kind of), while the other 50% were only ready for the coming disaster.

So, Jesus was sending them a warning that the Bridegroom was coming at a time they were not expecting, but not to invite them to the wedding feast, but to shut the door forever because they had not been prepared for Him.

The wedding feast (again, IMO), took place at Pentecost where the Lord lavishly poured His Holy Spirit to clothe His church with the garments of salvation. The doors then were shut 40 years later when the judgment of Israel as a people of God was finalized forever for having rejected and killed their own King while at the same time, persecuted God's people (New Israel) made out of faithful Jews (1Thes. 2:14-16).

The doors were finally closed to the nation of Israel in AD 70 but would remain open to the Jews until the second coming which the curtains of this age will be closed forever to give room to the eternal age of holy righteousness.

What do you think?

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ebedmelech said:

The best approach to understanding is the context of what Jesus explaining. He's still speaking in the context of the "Olivet Discourse"...and Matthew 25 is just as much a part of it as Matthew 24. Peter, James, John, and Andrew are still listening.

Would you agree with that?

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William Lefranc said:

Yes, I think Mat. 23, 24 and 25 go hand in hand in a progressive way. When the Lord spoke what the kingdom of God was like in Mat. 25 (and other unrelated passages), He was exposing the fallacy of the Jews (including His disciples) that thought that the kingdom was an earthly domain that required an earthly king in the likes of David, Solomon, Josiah, etc.

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ebedmelech said:

When it comes to the parable of the 10 virgins....the very key is that 5 were wise and 5 were foolish. The parable rides on what Jesus said at Matthew 24:45-51. The 5 wise are true believers...the 5 foolish are not.

When the Lord said to the 5 foolish " ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ ", the tense of that is that He never knew them at any time. We have many in the church that don't know Christ, but they think they do. Jesus previously spoke of such in the Sermon On The Mount, where he said at Matthew 7:22,23:

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

My view is that many make more of this parable than what's really being communicated. It simply means there are true and false believers in the church...and judgment day will make it clear.

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William Lefranc said:

He was exposing the fallacy of the Jews (including His disciples) that thought that the kingdom was an earthly domain

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Erik Nelson said:

"Sit on His glorious throne" (Matt 25:31-46, Olivet Discourse) =

Jesus' prophesy at his dawn trial before the entire Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:64 = Mark 14:62 = Luke 22:69) =

Prophesy of Daniel 500 years earlier (Daniel 7:13) -->

Rest of that same Prophesy (Daniel 7:14-15):

And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.…​

That is clearly describing the gradual establishment of Christendom after the Crucifixion, until everyone from Britain to India and even farther east confessed Jesus as the Messiah by the 4th century AD?

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Erik Nelson said:

• if so, then Daniel 7:13-15 = past event = establishment of Christendom, already accomplished

Does Daniel 7:13-15 = 2C, FJ ??

• if so, then Jesus has not yet been "given dominion, glory, and kingship"
• and so, there is no Kingdom of Christ on earth, yet
• and there won't be until after the 2C, FJ

If that doesn't make sense to you, then Daniel 7:13-15 = past event

So, please acknowledge, that the OD never once uses the term "Resurrection" (anastasis). So, the OD is about some other event -- which, however, does share in some "Judgement" like features & characteristics

Plausibly, that Judgement-like event = 70 AD, when the Jewish Christians, by obeying Christ's prophesies, escaped Jerusalem to safety at Pella... whereas others who did not heed Christ suffered a "Judgement-like event" (70 AD sack of Jerusalem). There was in fact a spiritual & physical, social & cultural separation of "Christian sheep" from "non-Christian goats".

God-guided human history on earth repeats itself, as everyone well knows. Some events foreshadow & presage other future ones. So we aren't really surprised that the tragic results of the Jewish-Roman war (66-73 AD) culminated in the terrible destruction of the city in a way which manifested "Judgement-like" characteristics, which stand to serve as warning to everyone else about the Power of God in heaven to bring about "Judgement" events on earth, which even the most educated people upon this planet (e.g. Josephus, Philo, Gamaliel) never saw coming.

OD describes a "Judgement-like event", but it never explicitly identifies that event as "The Resurrection" at "Final Judgement" (Rev 20:9+)

And, if you apply the [OD Judgement = Daniel 7] to the [2C, FJ = Rev 20]...

then you have to admit that JC has never yet received his Kingdom, and won't ever on earth until after that FJ...

but what about the Millennium, which has to happen before FJ ???

The logical "out" is that the

["OD Judgement event" = 70 AD] != [Resurrection @ FJ = future]
​

The obvious "Judgement like language" of the OD is then explained, by inferring that 70 AD foreshadowed & presaged the terrific fearsome nature of future FJ

God in heaven has not, and will never, tolerate disobedience on earth

cope & deal

The End.

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ebedmelech said:

When Jesus sits on His glorious throne it is for judgment. Jesus made it clear he had all power after His resurrection at Matthew 28:18. Paul equally makes it very clear at Ephesians 1:18-22 as well as Colossians 1:15-20, and Philippians 2:9-11


Yes. We are members of the kingdom (Christians), therefor we are the kingdom as a pronoun. However the noun "kingdom" is what we look to inherit in the end.


Daniel 7:13-14 is prophesying Christs' position after His resurection. That is when God gives Him All authority. Again Matthew 28-18, Ephesians 1:18-22, and Philippians 2:9-11 make it pretty clear that's the case.

The kingdom is now and future, because it is not complete until "all that the Father gives Christ comes to Him" As 1 Corinthians 15:24 says, Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father. We know the kingdom exist now because we are citizens of it as Colossians 1:13 makes clear.

The fact that the OD doesn't mention resurrection doesn't mean it doesn't happen. How does Christ "gather" all the nations" appear before Christ for judgment Matthew 25:32...without resurrection?

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1. Matthew 24:1-34 [OD-1] = 70 AD
2. Matthew 24:35-25:46 [OD-2] = future 2C @ FJ

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 = OD-1 = 70 AD
2. 1 Thessalonians 5 = 2 Thess 2 = OD-2 = future 2C @ FJ