- Jun 9, 2016
- 859
- 641
- 28
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Others
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Of course you might have been predestined to be a Calvinist again.
Then again - you might be predestined to end up calling yourself neither one but just a Bible believer.
One thing seems certain at this time. You were predestined to be a Calvinist who became an Arminian.
Only time will tell what else we may learn about your destiny.
Regarding the Hebrews passage:
If you view the Hebrews 6 passage as talking about loss of salvation for true believers, then you must also say that the people referred to cannot be won again to repentance. This goes against the many passages which instruct us as believers to lead exactly such people into a repentant position either through instruction and admonition or through church discipline.
I invite you to reread the passage in light of this. My two cents worth as one who believes in the eternal security of the believer.
I think your conclusion regarding the Heb 6 passage that they cannot be won again to repentance may be inaccurate. The key to understanding this passage is to note and pay attention to the verb tenses. In verse 6, the Greek verb tenses in this verse are in the present tense which indicate ongoing action. Thus these people are still engaging in "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. They cannot be won again to Christ because their very actions which they continue to exhibit in public, obviously demonstrate that there is no repentance among them. IF however, they were to cease in their behaviors of crucifying and shaming Christ and truly repent, then forgiveness would still be possible.
Indeed one can fall away and apostatize. However, if you believe that a person who no longer believes cannot repent and return to the faith you would be making an argument from silence since the Bible makes no such claims. An argument from silence is one of the weakest forms of argumentation.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
To arrive at your conclusion you have to completely ignore the immediate context of what Heb 6:6 states. It states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE or BECAUSE they are crucifying (ongoing sin) and shaming (ongoing sin) Christ. Ongoing sin is not forgivable as long as the person is still engaged in it as it demonstrates that the person has not repented.Once a person renounces Christ, and departs from Him, to save their life, then they will lose their life, because their is no other sacrifice for sins, since they have put Him to an open shame, having become a partaker of the Holy Spirit, then turned back to the dead religion from which they were rescued, they are now severed from Christ, having fallen from Grace.
Indeed one can fall away and apostatize. However, if you believe that a person who no longer believes cannot repent and return to the faith you would be making an argument from silence since the Bible makes no such claims. An argument from silence is one of the weakest forms of argumentation.
To arrive at your conclusion you have to completely ignore the immediate context of what Heb 6:6 states. It states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE or BECAUSE they are crucifying (ongoing sin) and shaming (ongoing sin) Christ.
5. Arminians do overemphasize on man. Yet Calvinists overemphasize on God's sovereignty. We need to emphasize on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I can read and certainly can you so reread the verse again; highlighted for your understanding - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Since means "because." The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" are both present tense verbs so it is impossible to renew them them to repentance because they are still "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. The fact is, it is impossible to renew anyone to repentance because/since they are still sinning/shaming Christ. Anyone still engaged in sin obviously demonstrates that they are in no way repentant since they continue in sin and hence the granting of sin is not a possibility.I see you misunderstand what is being taught.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
The context of "they crucify again" is they are trying renew their repentance they once had before they defected, which the verse plainly says can not be done.
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
It's impossible to renew them to repentance again.
I know you can read and understand that.
It's impossible to renew them again to repentance.
JLB
Not sure of how you arrived at your conclusions based upon I wrote. I believe that belief is required for salvation and believers can only believe for a while. They may be saved for that period of time but if they no longer continue in belief, then they are no longer saved. You in turn have not explained how Peter could be forgiven for denying Jesus, how the Father could forgive the prodigal for living in sin, how James explained that a sinning brother's soul can be saved from spiritual death. In these examples the answer is repentance, turning away from sin and back to the Father.Turning away from Christ; Departing from Him, while under persecution, specifically turning back to Judaism, which is renouncing Jesus as Messiah, is the context.
Judaism claims Jesus is a false prophet, which means he is a false messiah.
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-21
- but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Believe/endure is the condition for salvation.
Those who believe are saved.
Verse 12 teaches this key and is certainly "not silent".
- Believe/endure = Saved
- Believe/endure for a while = Saved for a while.
If you have a scripture that teaches us believing is not required for salvation, then please post it for us to examine.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14
Jesus was certainly "not silent", about this subject.
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
There is either understanding this or not.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
The key to bringing the message of the kingdom to fruition in our life is understanding.
Those who understand that believing and enduring to the end is the condition to being saved, will do so with patience.
- Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are no longer believers.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
If you have a scripture that teaches us those who are unbelieving are still somehow saved, then please post it for us to examine.
JLB
I don't believe it is. I believe your ideas (which follow) are inaccurate and I'll tell you why as I continue.I think your conclusion regarding the Heb 6 passage that they cannot be won again to repentance may be inaccurate.
Paul is the absolute epitome of a Jew who was not only rejecting the Messiah. He was also "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ's church (His body here on earth) literally and with a vengeance............these people are still engaging in "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. They cannot be won again to Christ because their very actions which they continue to exhibit in public, obviously demonstrate that there is no repentance among them.
Repentance is a gift granted by God tor His elect............IF however, they were to cease in their behaviors of crucifying and shaming Christ and truly repent, then forgiveness would still be possible.
Not sure of how you arrived at your conclusions based upon I wrote. I believe that belief is required for salvation and believers can only believe for a while. They may be saved for that period of time but if they no longer continue in belief, then they are no longer saved.
You in turn have not explained how Peter could be forgiven for denying Jesus, how the Father could forgive the prodigal for living in sin, how James explained that a sinning brother's soul can be saved from spiritual death.
I can read and certainly can you so reread the verse again; highlighted for your understanding - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Since means "because." The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" are both present tense verbs so it is impossible to renew them them to repentance because they are still "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. The fact is, it is impossible to renew anyone to repentance because/since they are still sinning/shaming Christ. Anyone still engaged in sin obviously demonstrates that they are in no way repentant since they continue in sin and hence the granting of sin is not a possibility.
The following is a teaching I'm familiar with. Man cannot say "yes" without grace, and yet he can still always say "no".I left the PuritanBoard because I couldn't reconcile my views with theirs. (Changed my e-mail and signed out forever.)
I guess I'll call this 'Paradoxical Calvinism.' I'm going to post my five points.
1. We are totally depraved, indeed. Are we absolutely unable to choose Christ? In a way, yes. I believe that we can only choose Christ if we know the true Christ, not the Christ that all the false gospels promote. We cannot accept Christ if we don't know Him from the Scriptures.
2. God, indeed, unconditionally elects His own. Does that mean that He set in forth hard determinism with regards who becomes saved? Absolutely not. All who come to Christ genuinely are among God's elect.
3. Christ's atonement is limited and unlimited at the same time. Did Christ die for the elect only? In a particular way, yes, but entirely, no. Did Christ die for the whole world? Absolutely.
4. God regenerates all of His elect with due time. Could there be different ways He regenerates his elect? Absolutely. Repentance is a universal aspect of all the various methods God uses to regenerate His own, for sure.
5. God's elect shall not pass away. They might backslide somewhat, but God will sling them back into the race.
This is a slightly more liberal take on Calvinism. On the Calvinistic spectrum, I am an Amyraldist. I hold to hypothetical universalism myself. (Not everyone is going to heaven, silly.)
Yet, Arminianism has influenced my beliefs for the better. Here's some questions/statements.
1. What if God foreordained our free will choices to come to Him, therefore unconditionally electing us yet allowing us to choose Him at the same time?
2. Why wasn't Arminianism considered a heresy, like all of the other non-Calvinistic belief systems?
3. Why are there so many genuine Arminian Christians if Calvinism (the legalistic kind) is true? There has to be some truth buried within Arminius' theology.
4. This is just a personal question. Why are Calvinists so legalistic? Isn't legalism what the Bible taught against? Legalism would be faith by works. We are saved by grace through faith alone. None of our worldly wise deeds count as anything to God.
5. Arminians do overemphasize on man. Yet Calvinists overemphasize on God's sovereignty. We need to emphasize on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
6. Calvinism is true in the aspect that God foreordains all. God regenerates us and we choose. Yet did we choose? Yes. It is perfectly God's act towards us, but we act towards Him too.
7. God is more sovereign than the Arminians and the Calvinists assume Him to be. God is more sovereign since He foreordains every free will choice that man enacts.
As always, this is just my opinion on the matter. God bless.
What you say about Paul is true however it is not relevant to the passage as Paul is not describing himself in the past; rather he is describing others who are currently crucifying and shaming Christ. The plain meaning of the passage is that since they are still engaging in this type of sinful behavior, no forgiveness is possible since it is quite obvious that no forgiveness is being sought.Paul is the absolute epitome of a Jew who was not only rejecting the Messiah. He was also "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ's church (His body here on earth) literally and with a vengeance.
And yet - he was brought to repentance solely by the grace of God and due in no part to his own attitude or actions. This kind of overwhelming grace is new everyday for His elect.
If they are wanting to repent as you assert, why are they still engaging in sinful behavior by crucifying/shaming Christ? When one truly desires to repent, one seeks to stop engaging in sin, turn around and seek the Father's forgiveness. Since Paul describes these people as still crucifying/shaming Christ, it is evident that they are not wanting to repent and return.Yes, the crucifying is present tense since the person is wanting to repent and return but can not, since they have already repented once, then renounced their Savior.
JLB
If they are wanting to repent as you assert, why are they still engaging in sinful behavior by crucifying/shaming Christ? When one truly desires to repent, one seeks to stop engaging in sin, turn around and seek the Father's forgiveness. Since Paul describes these people as still crucifying/shaming Christ, it is evident that they are not wanting to repent and return.
I'm of the opinion that things are done with God..We didn't secure the source of salvation. But to be a part of the salvation that delivers we must get in[walk by faith].I believe it does come down to truly believing and trusting in the sovereignty of God. You may not be a Calvinist at all if you believe that a creature can act/work beyond his power and outside of his nature. You may not be a Calvinist at all if you believe that the One who created all things, who gives power to His creation, and sustains everything; that whatsoever He has ordained, may or may not happen.
If they are turning back to the law....If they are wanting to repent as you assert, why are they still engaging in sinful behavior by crucifying/shaming Christ? When one truly desires to repent, one seeks to stop engaging in sin, turn around and seek the Father's forgiveness. Since Paul describes these people as still crucifying/shaming Christ, it is evident that they are not wanting to repent and return.
I'm of the opinion that things are done with God..We didn't secure the source of salvation. But to be a part of the salvation that delivers we must get in[walk by faith].
If they are turning back to the law....
When Jesus has fullfilled it. Then there is no repentance under the Law. Those sacrifices were for what was to come (Jesus)
But there is repentance under the new system which is not cursed. And that is Faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe the writer of Hebrews expressed History of such people who were under direct authority of God. They may have died without Mercy...simply because they rejected God.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?