The Paradox of a Perfect God

[DogmaHunter]

I don't see how that definition translates to a lack of desires or wants. Does a desire or want imply imperfection in some way?

I think it does, yes.

A desire or want implies that you are missing something, or at least have the feeling that you are missing something.

I don't see how that is compatible with the idea that things are perfect.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

True

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

True

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

True

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

False

What am I missing here?
OB

The simple answer is that God is perfect and lacks nothing. He did not need to create anything. However, God created everything simply because he wanted to. Our existence is entirely for our benefit. Not God's.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You're going to have to elaborate on that, because I don't think you meant to say that God is an "emotion"...

Is love an emotion? From a secular position it seems the answer is yes. However, from a theological context it isn't. The form of love that is used to describe God is Agape or unconditional love. This love is a choice rather than an emotion. Which is why various scriptures provide instructions on loving those you hate or loving your enemies.

 

[Doug Melven]

You're going to have to elaborate on that, because I don't think you meant to say that God is an "emotion"...

Love is more than an emotion.
1 John 4:8 says "God is love".
When we try to put our human definitions on things, it just doesn't work.
To me, God is love means means everything He does is done for the benefit of others.
Even when God killed people or had them killed. It was out of love for His children.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yet according to his biblical story, his creation gets messed up several times causing him to wash it clean and start over.

Lol it's not a characterization I agree with...I'm just saying that's what I assumed they meant by perfect

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it does, yes.

A desire or want implies that you are missing something, or at least have the feeling that you are missing something.

I don't see how that is compatible with the idea that things are perfect.

Well for starters, it's not "things" that are perfect...it's "god" that's perfect. I think the problem here is that god is such a vague concept. Let's apply it to someone else...for example, a perfect general...

Aside from possessing all the qualities and traits we would expect in this hypothetical "perfect" general...let's imagine that he has a desire to destroy his enemies in war. Does that mean that he's somehow lacking a trait or quality that we want in a perfect general? I'd have to say no. His desires may not be a part of those things that we call perfection...but it doesn't make him imperfect either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This love is a choice rather than an emotion.

You just went from describing god as an "emotion" to describing god as a "choice"....

Which makes even less sense.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You just went from describing god as an "emotion" to describing god as a "choice"....

Which makes even less sense.

Let’s look at how the Bible describes love, and then we will see a few ways in which God is the essence of love. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). This is God's description of love, and because God is love (1 John 4:8), this is what He is like.

Love (God) does not force Himself on anyone. Those who come to Him do so in response to His love. Love (God) shows kindness to all. Love (Jesus) went about doing good to everyone without partiality. Love (Jesus) did not covet what others had, living a humble life without complaining. Love (Jesus) did not brag about who He was in the flesh, although He could have overpowered anyone He ever came in contact with. Love (God) does not demand obedience. God did not demand obedience from His Son, but rather, Jesus willingly obeyed His Father in heaven. “The world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me” (John 14:31). Love (Jesus) was/is always looking out for the interests of others.

The greatest expression of God's love is communicated to us in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 5:8 proclaims the same message: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” We can see from these verses that it is God's greatest desire that we join Him in His eternal home, heaven. He has made the way possible by paying the price for our sins. He loves us because He chose to as an act of His will. Love forgives. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 23-24).


Reference: What does it mean that God is love?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Love is more than an emotion

Is it? How so?

1 John 4:8 says "God is love".
When we try to put our human definitions on things, it just doesn't work.

I don't care if John said it or you or Captain Kirk. It's equally senseless to me.
I also don't get, at all, what you mean by not using our "human definitions" of things. It seems to me as if we have no other choice then to use human language..............

To me, God is love means means everything He does is done for the benefit of others.
Even when God killed people or had them killed. It was out of love for His children.

How does this make "love" anything but an emotion?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Is love an emotion? From a secular position it seems the answer is yes

Not "secular". Rather, from an empirical position.

However, from a theological context it isn't

Now all you need to do is demonstrate that "theological contexts" actually reflect reality. Good luck with that.

The form of love that is used to describe God is Agape or unconditional love. This love is a choice rather than an emotion.

I don't see why.
You seem to be just "declaring" this.

Which is why various scriptures provide instructions on loving those you hate or loving your enemies.

If you say so.
None of this however makes love anything other then an emotion playing out in a physical brain.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let’s look at how the Bible describes love, and then we will see a few ways in which God is the essence of love. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

It doesn't keep a "record of wrongs"? So god doesn't know of any "wrongs" anyone has done?

That sounds contrary to everything I've heard about god.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Always protects? You sure about that? I remember reading about a child swept away in the hurricane last week....he definitely could have used some protection

Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). This is God's description of love, and because God is love (1 John 4:8), this is what He is like.

Love (God) does not force Himself on anyone. Those who come to Him do so in response to His love. Love (God) shows kindness to all. Love (Jesus) went about doing good to everyone without partiality. Love (Jesus) did not covet what others had, living a humble life without complaining. Love (Jesus) did not brag about who He was in the flesh, although He could have overpowered anyone He ever came in contact with. Love (God) does not demand obedience.

God doesn't demand obedience? You sure about that one? I'm pretty sure there's a couple named Adam and Eve who might disagree on that one....

God did not demand obedience from His Son, but rather, Jesus willingly obeyed His Father in heaven. “The world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me” (John 14:31). Love (Jesus) was/is always looking out for the interests of others.

The greatest expression of God's love is communicated to us in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 5:8 proclaims the same message: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” We can see from these verses that it is God's greatest desire that we join Him in His eternal home, heaven. He has made the way possible by paying the price for our sins. He loves us because He chose to as an act of His will. Love forgives. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 23-24).


Reference: What does it mean that God is love?

You know....it's nice that you believe all this. I'm sure it's comforting. I'm certainly not going to try to argue that you're wrong...I doubt it makes any difference what I say. I just think if you try to see it from someone else's point of view, that doesn't make much sense. I pointed out a couple of reasons why above...and I could definitely point out more....but I don't think it matters to you anyway. I'm just saying that for some people who don't hold beliefs that contradict each other...the inconsistencies are pretty glaring.

 

[Hawkins]

I think it does, yes.

A desire or want implies that you are missing something, or at least have the feeling that you are missing something.

I don't see how that is compatible with the idea that things are perfect.

That's your own dilemma. God is perfect by no means says that the universe is perfect before creation. Making a better world is never a kind of desire or wants. It is possibly responsibility.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's your own dilemma. God is perfect by no means says that the universe is perfect before creation. Making a better world is never a kind of desire or wants. It is possibly responsibility.

But supposedly there was no universe. So really, you are saying that he was making a non-universe "better"?

Doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Serving Zion]

The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB

God is love. What does love do? Does it withhold good things from those who are grateful to receive them? (Of course not: love does not seek it's own, is gentle, kind, impartial. It always hopes and endures).

Keep in mind that this world is not what God created, but what man has made of it (and how?).

Looking at the world that God made (be sure to divorce your imagined Darwinian context from the Christian story: God saw all that He made, and it was good. Then He rested), then you see He made paradise. If you were God, capable of making paradise and many friends who are grateful for life, is that not what you would do? .. assuming that you concede that love would do that, then what does "need" have to do with it?

Thus, "need" is a concept only existing because of an awareness of suffering. It's root is discontentment or deprival. Therefore, need cannot exist in perfect conditions. It is a concept having only come about as a result of the suffering that sin has brought into the world.

 

[Dave RP]

The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB

My concerns with God’s apparent perfection is the litany of huge mistakes he made, leading to the killing of everything he made bar one family in the flood. Also not knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the Apple, or knowing they would but still punishing humankind for ever for doing what he knew that would. That to me is more problematical than a motive or lack of for creation.

 

[Serving Zion]

Hi Dave, I wouldn't mind saying something about this, if that is ok

the litany of huge mistakes he made, leading to the killing of everything he made bar one family in the flood.

Could you show me some specifics in support of this? It seems that we have made different assumptions about who deserves the blame.

Also not knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the Apple,

No indication is given in the story whether He expected it of them or not, so our logic produces an interesting consequence as to God's wisdom and control as far as human free will is involved.

or knowing they would but still punishing humankind for ever for doing what he knew that would.

The consequence doesn't need to be read as a punishment - where the word punishment involves some feeling of vengeance or anger as a human would add. The consequence is stated most purely, as "look now! .. the human has become as one of us, to discern function and dysfunction! .. what if he is to now reach out, and take from the tree of life and live forever?" .. so, Adonai drove them out of the garden of Eden, placing mighty cherubim and a flaming sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Reading with the spirit that I have read it, shows that it is for wisdom that God banished them from living forever (there are some people, I am sure you will imagine a few, that we do not want to live forever .. at least, until they have learned to use their knowledge of function and dysfunction in a suitable way).

As with the other consequences (con-sequence .. being of the sequence), the man was to toil and sweat by the brow in order to gain food from the land, whereas he had been free to eat of any tree prior.

I'm interested to know your thoughts in response!

 

[Dave RP]

Hi Dave, I wouldn't mind saying something about this, if that is ok

Could you show me some specifics in support of this? It seems that we have made different assumptions about who deserves the blame.

No indication is given in the story whether He expected it of them or not, so our logic produces an interesting consequence as to God's wisdom and control as far as human free will is involved.

The consequence doesn't need to be read as a punishment - where the word punishment involves some feeling of vengeance or anger as a human would add. The consequence is stated most purely, as "look now! .. the human has become as one of us, to discern function and dysfunction! .. what if he is to now reach out, and take from the tree of life and live forever?" .. so, Adonai drove them out of the garden of Eden, placing mighty cherubim and a flaming sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Reading with the spirit that I have read it, shows that it is for wisdom that God banished them from living forever (there are some people, I am sure you will imagine a few, that we do not want to live forever .. at least, until they have learned to use their knowledge of function and dysfunction in a suitable way).

As with the other consequences (con-sequence .. being of the sequence), the man was to toil and sweat by the brow in order to gain food from the land, whereas he had been free to eat of any tree prior.

I'm interested to know your thoughts in response!

Gods mistakes are numerous, the whole thing about the Garden of Eden, god is everywhere yet he didn’t seem to be around when the devil talked to Eve. God knows everything but he seemed to miss the eating of he apple and later Cain murdering Abel.

God made the world and everything in it, yet shortly after he destroyed it all, including presumably innocent young children, unborn babies, and numerous other innocent people.

God killed Lots wife just for looking at something, if that was true and a deliberate act, then it’s quite shocking.

My purpose is not to say that the god you follow is not a great god, he may well be but what I’m saying is the bible is fallible, and demonstrably so.

 

[brinny]

The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB

God, in being "perfect", means not "lacking" anything. He is perfectly "whole". He is not "needy", for He "needs" nothing.

In "creating", He is expressing His "creativity", of which He is infinitely chock full of.

Great question, though. It's a wunnerful study. i hope all is well, Occams Barber.

 

[brinny]

First let me say I like the name you chose; Occams - barber. Cool play on words.

To answer your question I would just say consider why people have children. I believe 99% + people who choose to have children, do so for the love and joy they can bring to their lives.

Consider also the fact that everyone know kids are a minimum of 18 years major cost (beginning with the birth which involves screaming and paying to do so) both financially and emotionally. Funds, fears and stress, lack of sleep, the discipline dilemmas... The terrible 2's; the elementary school homework no one over 30 can understand; the eye-rolling tweens, and before the biggest money investment - college, there's the full-out-meltdown 15-17 yr olds going on 30 but without benefit of frontal lobe development.

Lots of people have 2 or more kids. Do they really bring enough joy and love into our lives to outweigh all other costs? The answer flies in the face of logic as it is a resounding YES!

The willingness to make love the heavy on the scale is clearly a reflection of our Father's love tipping the scale for us - as rotten as we can be.

Now, if I could create a universe... as seen in Hubble pics, I would have the time of my life. But galaxies are cold and made of rocks and gases. What good is the splendor without someone to share it with? We are his greatest creation because we were made as he is; 3-part beings, having body, soul, and spirit. In His likeness.

The Lord hates evil but enjoys us. You would be surprised that God also has a sense of humor.

The willingness to make love the heavy on the scale is clearly a reflection of our Father's love tipping the scale for us - as rotten as we can be.

You almost knocked me off me chair with, especially this.

The entire tone of my day and my meditation has been "set" with this.

Can i quote you in my journal and elsewhere?

You have blessed me enormously.

Thank you, singpeace.

 

[Serving Zion]

Gods mistakes are numerous, the whole thing about the Garden of Eden, god is everywhere yet he didn’t seem to be around when the devil talked to Eve. God knows everything but he seemed to miss the eating of he apple and later Cain murdering Abel.

God made the world and everything in it, yet shortly after he destroyed it all, including presumably innocent young children, unborn babies, and numerous other innocent people.

God killed Lots wife just for looking at something, if that was true and a deliberate act, then it’s quite shocking.

My purpose is not to say that the god you follow is not a great god, he may well be but what I’m saying is the bible is fallible, and demonstrably so.

Hmmm... I see you have made many wrong assumptions about what I might possibly say about all of this. It indicates that you have been dissatisfied with what others have said, that you have found a pattern, and that you think that pattern is pretty much it. So it has formed a preconceived tendency to misjudge my argument, in that you think the 'Christian God' is the idea that you have in mind when you say these things, and you are confident in that image, that it is the same image that I have.

What happens when I open my mouth to begin showing you that the idea f the 'Christian God' that you have, can be improved, that your reading of the scriptures has been misled and that the right reading would undo all of your arguments? .. then it threatens the security of your position with a new reality, that you would need to acknowledge that you have been wrong (repent).

The only way to escape that discomfort is to increase the stakes by continuing to oppose the view that I am bringing to you, and in order to do that, you must also need to misrepresent the view that I bring.

Furthermore, you weren't born with that way of thinking. It is only after you have spoken to people that have said things that caused you to begin viewing scripture in the way that you do, that your mind has entered that way of thinking. That is what the power is in words. We create a way of thinking in another person's mind, by "spelling things out" to them. We place them under our spell, or rather, the spirit by which we speak does battle to win their way of thinking, through the craft of spelling: spell craft.

There is an added complication for us, in that the English language is incapable of carrying the full intended meaning of the original language, and that the original language itself has been lost in history then altogether reconstructed later, plus the original writings do not exist anymore that we should verify that they have not suffered the same distortion through translation.

.. So, the spell that you are under is different from the spell that I am under, and different again from the spell that others are under (I mean, that I wouldn't agree with a lot of what other Christians might say, because I would similarly argue that they have been misled in their reading of the scriptures).

Now, it is interesting to mention along these lines, that Jesus said "knowing the truth will set us free" .. which means to say in this manner of speaking, that being free in thought is to not be under such a spell - that is, to have arrived at our view of our own absolute authority and not as having come under the mindset of the spirit which put the view in our mind through words. If we find that the words they have said are making god sense and are agreeable, then we have found agreement of our own authority. Whereas, if we accept what they say because we believe that they have a better authority to say so than we do, then we have come under their spell.

Well anyway, all this is to say that despite I can see problems in your view of the scriptures and the image of God that has been formed in you, I don't feel confident that engaging to battle those misconceptions will produce a profitable outcome .. unless you were first willing to consider that what I say has a value that you would appreciate, in changing your way of thinking (which I can already see, that your experiences of talking with "Christians" has left you pretty resolute to not desire that you should concede to go "under their spell").

I could contribute a lot to the points you have raised though, if you were wanting to break through the problems you have found. What I see in your words, however, is that you don't have that desire.

So, I shall wait to see your response to these words.