The Papacy

[Standing Up]

you posted:
"Today, therefore, we have kept the holy Lord's day, on which we have read your letter, which we shall always have to read and be admonished, even as the former letter which was written to us by the ministry of Clement."
CCEL:
“To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”

You need to go back further than Clement.

To Polycrates, Melito, and Polycarp.

 

[sunlover1]

As those taught by the Apsotles said, I wish to be taught by the church that the Apostles taught and be sheep to the Shepards that are in a line to the Apsotles.

I am sure your pastor is a good person and someone you like. But I have different criteria.

I'm certain he's an awesome person.. definitely cant help but
love him. Love begets love.
But I'd never go because of those reasons.

My criteria for staying with this pastor is the same
criteria that i use for all of my decisions.

My pastor is taught directly from God through the Apostles as well.

 

[MamaZ]

Amen teaching the word of God feeding Christ sheep .. We have to go where we can get fed.

 

[simonthezealot]

Hey Jack serious, whats your criteria?

 

[simonthezealot]

You need to go back further than Clement.

To Polycrates, Melito, and Polycarp.

Polycrates and Melito were both after Clement of Rome. But good idea nonetheless lets take a look and see just how roman these "catholics" are...
Melito of Sardis for example lived in the second century. He was the first church father to list the Old Testament canon for us. He gave us a canon closer to that of evangelicalism than that of Roman Catholicism:

"I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books."
(cited in the church history of Eusebius, 4:26)
I like it...Here's how he arrives at it...
"Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since thou hast often, in thy zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and hast also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing thy zeal for the faith, and thy desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that thou, in thy yearning after God, esteemest these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below." (cited in Eusebius, Church History, 4:26:13-14)
Apparently, neither Melito nor the person he's writing to thought that the means of arriving at a reliable canon was an infallible ruling from a worldwide denomination led by a Pope. Instead, Melito relies on his own examination of evidence, and he refers to his conclusions as reliable.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hey Jack serious, whats your criteria?

Apostolic Succession plays a huge part since I believe that Jesus gave the Apostles a charismatic gift that is given to others that take the offices of bishop, priest and deacon. It is also there that I believe the Paraclete works to protect the teachings from any corruption. So it must be an Apostolic Church as the Nicene Creed states. Actually, I like the whole Nicene Creed.

 

[simonthezealot]

Apostolic Succession plays a huge part since I believe that Jesus gave the Apostles a charismatic gift that is given to others that take the offices of bishop, priest and deacon.

Why do you believe this?

It is also there that I believe the Paraclete works to protect the teachings from any corruption.

As well why do you believe this?
and what makes you believe surely that your church is the one protected from corruption?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I believe the Catholic Church because I proved to myself I need to and because that is where God has brought me after much prayer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As those taught by the Apsotles said, I wish to be taught by the church that the Apostles taught and be sheep to the Shepards that are in a line to the Apsotles.

I am sure your pastor is a good person and someone you like. But I have different criteria.

Of course you do.

 

[simonthezealot]

I believe the Catholic Church because I proved to myself I need to and because that is where God has brought me after much prayer.

You can do this but someone with knowledge and reason can't read a bit of scripture and come to it's plain conclusion? They need a papacy loaded with much to benefit from a very specific and twisted reading of scripture...

 

[spiritman]

Peter is shown here as one of the twelve apostles as an equal with them. And not as being chief of any apostle. So the concept of Peter being the first head of the church is false according to the Word of God.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[MaxP]

You can do this but someone with knowledge and reason can't read a bit of scripture and come to it's plain conclusion? They need a papacy loaded with much to benefit from a very specific and twisted reading of scripture...

God does not want us to go solo scriptura, but He also wants us to have tradition and teaching. Hence the Church, papacy, etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God does not want us to go solo scriptura, but He also wants us to have tradition and teaching. Hence the Church, papacy, etc.

Sure He does. He led me to be Solo Scriptura

 

[MaxP]

Sure He does. He led me to be Solo Scriptura

I'm glad you think so.

 

[Standing Up]

Polycrates and Melito were both after Clement of Rome.

My error.

But good idea nonetheless lets take a look and see just how roman these "catholics" are...

Melito of Sardis for example lived in the second century. He was the first church father to list the Old Testament canon for us. He gave us a canon closer to that of evangelicalism than that of Roman Catholicism:

"I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books."
(cited in the church history of Eusebius, 4:26)
I like it...Here's how he arrives at it...
"Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since thou hast often, in thy zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and hast also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing thy zeal for the faith, and thy desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that thou, in thy yearning after God, esteemest these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below." (cited in Eusebius, Church History, 4:26:13-14)
Apparently, neither Melito nor the person he's writing to thought that the means of arriving at a reliable canon was an infallible ruling from a worldwide denomination led by a Pope. Instead, Melito relies on his own examination of evidence, and he refers to his conclusions as reliable.

And the sole surviving letter from Polycarp presumably references all and only the 27 books of the NT.

The deal is there was a rift between Polycarp, Melito, Polycrates and the church in Rome beginning c 120 regarding Quartodecimanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodeciman.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Sure He does. He led me to be Solo Scriptura

SOLO Scriptura man:

 

[JacktheCatholic]

You can do this but someone with knowledge and reason can't read a bit of scripture and come to it's plain conclusion? They need a papacy loaded with much to benefit from a very specific and twisted reading of scripture...

I think men screw everything up. The only reason I trust the Catholic Church is because of scripture and Apostolic Succession, in these I believe the Paraclete works to protect the truth and I have always found proof for Catholic teachings. (awaits stick in eye).

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I believe the Catholic Church because I proved to myself I need to and because that is where God has brought me after much prayer.

I believe that the Lutheran Church is right because I proved to myself that I need to attend there and that's where God has led me after much prayer.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I believe that the Lutheran Church is right because I proved to myself that I need to attend there and that's where God has led me after much prayer.

I almost joined the Lutheran church. When I initially sought out a church it was to be Lutheran. No kidding. But that did not happen for years down the road and by then I was engaged to my beautiful and Catholic wife. Her mother is Lutheran by the way.

In my searching for a home I found the Catholic Church ultimately.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I almost joined the Lutheran church. When I initially sought out a church it was to be Lutheran. No kidding. But that did not happen for years down the road and by then I was engaged to my beautiful and Catholic wife. Her mother is Lutheran by the way.

In my searching for a home I found the Catholic Church ultimately.

The Lutheran Church would've benefited having you around!