The Paganization of Christianity

[dignitized]

actually - no. The OP is about how specific "sects" claim that Christianity as it exists today is paganized. They use as evidence sunday worship, easter, Christmas, the trinity, the conversion of Constantine and much much more.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The Purpose of the Church is redemption.

All things we use in our cultures have some pagan elements. The wedding ring is of pagan origin. The cross is of pagan origin, the fish symbol, used by the ancient Christians, and still in use today, is of pagan orgin.

That does not mean they are pagan symbols when used by Christians.

We are in the business of redemption. We are taking back what satan stole from us, we are redeemming the time. That does not simply mean the passing of seconds, but the times we live in as well, our cultures.

When the Church appropriates something that pagans used, the Church REDEEMS IT! The Church transforms it from a pagan symbol, claiming it for Christ, into something new and Christian.


We were all once lost . . pagans . . Christ redeemed us and made us part of His Church. Does a redeemed pagan make the Church pagan?

No! Of course not! That would be absurd for it would go against everything redemption means.

It means that the pagan is CHANGED and is no longer pagan.


The same goes with pagan symbols, etc. . . They are CHANGED and are no longer pagan, but redeemed with the redeeming of time the Church is commissioned to do.


Similarities do not mean sameness.

Ralph Woodrow had to learn that the hard way . . . it would do those who think that Christianity has been paganized to read what happened to him, and what he discovered at great cost to himself!

BOOK REVIEW THE TWO BABYLONS: A Case Study in Poor Methodology
http://www.equip.org/free/DC187.htm


Peace

 

[dignitized]

again - it's more a question of does the pure expression of the faith rest in doing things as the pharisitical jews do them? Today’s Judaism and how todays Jews practice their faith is directly descended from the Judaism of the Pharisitical Jews. There are those who believe that to truly be Christian we must keep the dietary laws - worship on Saturdays - keep the OT feasts as the pharisee’s did.

 

[thereselittleflower]

again - it's more a question of does the pure expression of the faith rest in doing things as the pharisitical jews do them? Today’s Judaism and how todays Jews practice their faith is directly descended from the Judaism of the Pharisitical Jews. There are those who believe that to truly be Christian we must keep the dietary laws - worship on Saturdays - keep the OT feasts as the pharisee’s did.

And those that did this in the ancient Church were known as Judiazers.



Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

"The people who hold to the notion that Christianity was paganized do so to support their claims that they alone hold the true faith in one of the many errors that the undivided church refuted. I guess it lets them feel far superior and more holy than those of us who do not buy into their errors."

The claim is made by more than people who claim to hold the true faith, and what you call "the undivided church" certainly isn't any of those who have divided themselves by claiming to hold the true faith, as I'm sure your denomination of choice does.

Let's focus on Christmas.
Where does the tradition of celebrating birthdays come, anyway?
It is from Chaldean astrology.
It was the reason Job was offering sacrifices for his children in the opening chapter of the book named after him.

 

[dignitized]

From Chaldean astrology? the self same Chaldean astrology that the Hebrew calendar is based on?

What exactly about Christmas is objectionable? The date? The celebration of light entering into the world? The celebration of incarnation of God?

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you implying the practice of astrology, or celebrating birthdays, or both, were common practice, or Pharisee approved traditions, &/or are scripturaly proscribed somewhere?
School me.
I love it when I'm wrong.

Of course there's a lot more objectionable about it, admit it, even die-hard celebrators have had their well-deserved moments of complaint, but let's not confuse the issue. That would be a digression from the very point of its existence - it's a birthday.

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[dignitized]

NO one is saying the celebration of birthdays was in any way common - even when the celebration of the Nativity began in the church it was never presented as celebration of his birth - but rather of his INCARNATION . Do you have a problem with celebrating the incarnation of God in the flesh?

 

[Rick Otto]

Is making distinctions without a difference.
What's the point of picking His supposed birthday to celebrate His incarnation?
"Do you have a problem with" letting yes mean yes & no mean no?
What exactly is your winking point to asking about the origins of the Hebrew calendar, if not to point out the acceptability of the practice of celebrating birthdays?

Is obfuscation your only way of presuasion?

 

[SolomonVII]

Giving thanks and celebration of life need not be regarded as a return to paganism. Joy is not the preserve of the pagans.

After a generation of Cromwell's puritanism, the people had more than their fill of this brand of joyless Christianity. Being Christian does not mean that we have to all become a bunc of Scrooges.

 

[Rick Otto]

except for the obvious over-generalization:"the people"?
ALL "the people"?

Now, back to the issue at hand.
If you're not just celebrating His incarnation, why confuse people by doing it on His birthday?

Get my point?

Celebrate, be joyful, but be discerning.
Don't get caught holding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[dignitized]

Is making distinctions without a difference.
What's the point of picking His supposed birthday to celebrate His incarnation?

The attempt was made to choose the date of his birth for the obvious reason of it emphasized his humanity at a time when people were teaching that he was not ever human.

"Do you have a problem with" letting yes mean yes & no mean no?

What does this have to do with the topic we are discussing?

What exactly is your winking point to asking about the origins of the Hebrew calendar, if not to point out the acceptability of the practice of celebrating birthdays?

Pointing out the origins of the Hebrew calendar was to show that the Calendar of GOD - and the scriptures was of chaldean origins.

 

[dignitized]

Did bot Christ take on flesh and a human life? Did he not enter TIME and live in TIME?

 

[dignitized]

Celebrate the entirety of Christ every day - but we have a scriptural tradition for setting aside certain days of the year to remember certain momentous events. If the Passover is worth remembering EVERY year - how much more is the incarnation and birth of GOD worth remembering every year

 

[SolomonVII]

...

Now, back to the issue at hand.
If you're not just celebrating His incarnation, why confuse people by doing it on His birthday?

Get my point?

The actual date of Christ's birthday is unknown though, isn't it? Tradition has us setting aside a certain day for this celebration, but imposing the word 'birthday' on this Mass seems to be a very modern communication. Certainly, I can;t really remember hearing that so much as a child, and when I hear the expression now that "this is the baby Jesus' birthday, the target audicende is inbvariably a child.
Certainly, 'Baby Jesus' is a concept that children can relate to, and 'birthday' is a word that a child's mind in this culture would understand long before they could be introduced to the word 'incarnation'.
But the constellation of scriture around the Christmas celebration point out to the idea of the Word becoming flesh, being laid into a manger for our consumption.

Celebrate, be joyful, but be discerning.
Don't get caught holding the truth in unrighteousness.

Well no, of course not. For example, whatever the modern feminist may say, giving dollies for a present is a good discernment in which we can all share in the joy of when the Word became flesh.
When the 'dolly' is really a child sacrafice, as the pagans are said to have done, then we are entering the realm of pagan unrigteousness again. (And this is one of the criticisms against Christmas celebrations by the way-I am not just pulling that out of thin air).

I think that this is something of what what the OP had in mind. His criticism is mainly agaisnt those here who would have us believe that such things as Christmas gift-giving is the actual re-enactment of such pagan practices as child sacrafice. Valid questions pertinent and criticisms of modern-day materialism and consumerism aside, this is not really what the traditon of Christmas celebration is at all- and it never has been.

 

[Desperate4Him2]

Actually, we just passed Jesus' probable birthdate. Tishri 15 or the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Recall John's words "he tabernacled among us"? Those words are not a coincidence.

I actually do not understand why we cannot celebrate the important dates in Jesus' life on the proper days. Early on it might have been important to mask the pagan holidays by covering them with Christian celebrations, but surely now it's important to celebrate on the proper days as we will surely be doing in the future. When God says "everlasting", I think he means it!

 

[Rick Otto]

to observe special days, but we're not supposed to learn the ways of the heathen.

Celebrate His incarnation, but don't do what the heathen do. Especialy not for convenience's sake, like doing it on Apollo's birthday. Is's like there was a complete disregard for unintended consequences.

"Celebrate the entirety of Christ every day - but we have a scriptural tradition for setting aside certain days of the year to remember certain momentous events."

"Whaddaya mean "we", paleface?" -What Tonto said to The Lone Ranger when they were surounded by angry Indians.

"If the Passover is worth remembering EVERY year - how much more is the incarnation and birth of GOD worth remembering every year "

Well, if God had mentioned it like He did Passover, I might agree ya got somethin' there!

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Hi:
As has been suggested, Christmas isnot Christ's 'birthday.' It has never been the intention of the Church to celebrate Christ's birthday, but rather, to celebrate His Incarnation, His coming. 'Chritsmas' is a slang term for what the Feast is properly known as: The Nativity According to th Flesh of Jesus the Christ.

Some seem offended that we would celebrate His birth on a date that is very doubtful forHis actual date of birth. Ironically, many of those who are offended in this manner are also offended at the 'pagan' practice of celebrating birthdays. One would think that these would be glad we don't actually celebrate His birthday...

I also find it instructive that this thread has been avoided by those who stump for the paganization premise. It is easy to make assertions, but far more difficult to prove same.

 

[dignitized]

to observe special days, but we're not supposed to learn the ways of the heathen.

Celebrate His incarnation, but don't do what the heathen do. Especialy not for convenience's sake, like doing it on Apollo's birthday. Is's like there was a complete disregard for unintended consequences.

If you were more aware of history you would know that the feast of Apollo was created as a counter to Christmas not the other way around.

"If the Passover is worth remembering EVERY year - how much more is the incarnation and birth of GOD worth remembering every year "

Well, if God had mentioned it like He did Passover, I might agree ya got somethin' there!

So only those things which are spelled out in the OT are worth keeping?

 

[Rick Otto]

"So only those things which are spelled out in the OT are worth keeping?"

>Where did THAT come from?!!!
Max, that is so convoluted, it must be that your 'straining for gnats'!

You neglect to consider that feasts are arrainged around events, not vice vesra. I see you cited no source.
Consider that Dec. 25th is the day the hours of sunlight stop shortening & begin to lengthen.

Now form a mythology around it and tell me how long it takes for anyone to create a feast.

Now show me your source, & please let it not be The Catholic Encyclopedia. Don't ask the fox how many chickens are in the coop!